How is Rooney still in our first 11?

[nick2004]

Stats are meaningless on their own and without context.

But of course!

Rooney, a striker, scored 15 goals in all competitions last year. The only player who scored more was Martial with 17. And Rooney was actually playing deep midfield!... But the question is ... "why is Rooney in the first 11"!!!

But it doesn't matter. Goals don't matter. Statistics don't matter. The hatters have a ... "feeling", the hatters know best! Sure! Of course! Definitely!

 

[nick2004]

Aren't you the same person who use to discredit Nani's stats and call him shite?

No, I'm not. You confuse me with someone else.

 

[Rado_N]

I don't know who these hat folks are but ok.

 

[sunama]

Even I could have 90% passing if I was to try simple, basic passes all game and I am shite.

LVG taught him how to do this.
The end product was pretty poor, unfortunately.

 

[fellaini's barber]

There's no way in hell the club will let anybody dump Rooney before he gets his record. Not after persevering with him this far. It's no coincidence that every coach that comes in first has to declare his undying love for him. I want him to get the record strangely enough, I'd rather it's someone in my generation who I once enjoyed watching. Problem is we probably still won't know how to shift him then. All I care right now is Mou playing his best team and not playing Rooney even to the teams detriment. He should play on merit like everyone else and still get enough chances to get his record

 

[Red Stone]

But of course!

Rooney, a striker, scored 15 goals in all competitions last year. The only player who scored more was Martial with 17. And Rooney was actually playing deep midfield!... But the question is ... "why is Rooney in the first 11"!!!

But it doesn't matter. Goals don't matter. Statistics don't matter. The hatters have a ... "feeling", the hatters know best! Sure! Of course! Definitely!

We got rid of RVP, Chicharito and Falcao and signed a 19 year old kid from France who we put on the wing and Rooney still couldn't claim the striker position for himself because an 18 year old from the academy was outscoring him.

Why the feck is Rooney in the first 11?

 

[Womp]

LVG taught him how to do this.
The end product was pretty poor, unfortunately.

I think it's much more than just LVG tbh. Martial, Rashford, Lingard, Mata etc. were all players who despite being rusty still seem capable of being able to play fast, direct football. Hell, even Blind who you would think would be the most Gaalised was playing more direct, fast passes rather than the safe route we have become accustomed to.

I think it's just a player who was once very good who just doesn't possess the legs or the required speed to play at the top level consistently anymore. It's so frustrating seeing the speed of Martial trying to get something going, the movement of Mata and Zlatan dropping deep trying to make space only for Rooney to heavy touch a ball and lose it, or for him to try a pass out to the wings rather than through the pitch because he doesn't possess the ability.

 

[beergod]

Rooney's weird. He always seems to accumulate good stats without really doing anything

I've never seen anyone else that could regularly play as badly as he does for 80 minutes, then score 2 in the final 10 to snag a MoM award.

 

[psychdelicblues]

But of course!

Rooney, a striker, scored 15 goals in all competitions last year. The only player who scored more was Martial with 17. And Rooney was actually playing deep midfield!... But the question is ... "why is Rooney in the first 11"!!!

But it doesn't matter. Goals don't matter. Statistics don't matter. The hatters have a ... "feeling", the hatters know best! Sure! Of course! Definitely!

Very Alice in Wonderland..........

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

I've never seen anyone else that could regularly play as badly as he does for 80 minutes, then score 2 in the final 10 to snag a MoM award.

It's pretty remarkable really.

That's why he had such a horrible 2015, he wasn't even scoring the goals to mask how shit he was.

 

[santeria13]

In football, scoring goals is the hardest part of the game. Ask LVG about this.
If Carroll could score 30 league goals per season in our team, we'd probably pay £120M for him...but he can't. Carroll is not as good as you are making him out to be.

Indeed, it is. But what about creating the opportunities that are needed to score goals? That is just as, if not more important for a team which suffered from one of the lowest chances created in the league last season. There is quite a big correlation between creating chances and goals scored, unless you are Arsenal of course.

As for the bold, neither can Rooney, not even close and especially not as a no10. And that's while considering the rest of his game is utter drab at this point. Hence my reference to Carroll. Both aren't even very good at scoring goals at the moment whilst both offer pretty much next to nothing in the rest of their game. At least Carroll would provide extra height/physicality mind you. And no, I'm not by any means saying we should sign him. I'm just making a comparison that if all Rooney is good for is scoring goals here and there these days, we might as well have someone like Carroll there. I'm trying to point out the mindlessness of having such a player occupying the hole which should be a position where the priority is to create over scoring. Rooney is not only not creating, but he is successfully preventing a lot of chances from being created in the final third through his poor play. If it's a second striker we want there, he is still a poor option, as would be Carroll as their link up play is torrid whilst they both do not offer enough goals to justify the rest of their game being so bad.

What I'm saying basically, is that if we put someone else there instead of Rooney who can help the rest of the team score more goals by providing some incisiveness, fluidity and creativity in the final third rather than dithering about/passing it sideways/backwards or just completely mis controlling and losing the ball; we would end up seeing more goals from the players around him.

And just to confirm, I think Carroll is shite. Hence the comparison with Rooney. They are both shite. They both offer next to nothing except for their ability to score goals whilst both are not very good at even that at this point in time. One game and one slightly lucky goal does not change my mind on this matter. I am basing my opinion on what I have seen for the last 2 seasons. And yeah LVG generally stifled the team in that regard but that did not stop two teenagers in Martial and Rashford scoring 17 and 8, respectively and in the mean time both managed to create a lot more dangerous opportunities for the players around them than Rooney himself.

 

[nick2004]

But neither can Rooney, not even close and especially not as a no10. And that's while considering the rest of his game is utter drab at this point. Hence my reference to Carroll. Both aren't even very good at scoring goals at the moment whilst both offer pretty much next to nothing in the rest of their game. At least Carroll would provide extra height/physicality mind you. And no, I'm not by any means saying we should sign him. I'm just making a comparison that if all Rooney is good for is scoring goals here and there these days, we might as well have someone like Carroll there. I'm trying to point out the mindlessness of having such a player occupying the hole which should be a position where the priority is to create over scoring. Rooney is not only not creating, but he is successfully preventing a lot of chances from being created in the final third through his poor play. If it's a second striker we want there, he is still a poor option, as would be Carroll as their link up play is torrid whilst they both do not offer enough goals to justify the rest of their game being so bad.

What I'm saying basically, is that if we put someone else there instead of Rooney who can help the rest of the team score more goals by providing some incisiveness, fluidity and creativity in the final third rather than dithering about/passing it sideways/backwards or just completely mis controlling and losing the ball; we would end up seeing more goals from the players around him.

And just to confirm, I think Carroll is shite. Hence the comparison with Rooney. They are both shite.

Rooney scored 15 last year and he wasn't playing as a striker. Except for Martial who scored 17, why didn't any of the other players score over 15 ... since they are all better than Rooney?

 

[santeria13]

It's pretty remarkable really.

That's why he had such a horrible 2015, he wasn't even scoring the goals to mask how shit he was.

This.

 

[sunama]

Rooney scored 15 last year and he wasn't playing as a striker. Except for Martial who scored 17, why didn't any of the other players score over 15 ... since they are all better than Rooney?

Why do so many people bring up the 15 in all competitions?
He scored 3 against Brugge in 2 legs?
Even Memphis could score 30 goals, if we played Brugge 38 times in a season. And Memphis is absolutely dire!
In any case, the best way of judging a goal scorer is his goals in the league.
We play each team twice and the standard is high. We don't play Shrewsbury, Midgetland or Brugge, in the EPL.

He scored 8 league goals last season. And 1 CL goal.

15 goals...

 

[santeria13]

Rooney scored 15 last year and he wasn't playing as a striker. Except for Martial who scored 17, why didn't any of the other players score over 15 ... since they are all better than Rooney?

My point, again, is that he doesn't score enough goals to justify the rest of his game being so poor. Both Martial and Rashford offer a hell of a lot more in terms of link up play and creating chances whilst still being able to score at a higher rate than Rooney. And they are both fecking teenagers. He also played striker for a significant part of the season which was more than enough to prove he is not good enough there, either. Even if he was scoring 25 goals all competitions, I would still think the rest of his game is so bad that it isn't justified by that figure. He would have to be scoring 25+ goals in all competitions for me to even begin to consider it justifying the rest of his game.

Seriously, what does Rooney offer except for his goals these days? Yeah goals are important but with that argument you could easily counter argue that he prevents a lot of potential goals being scored by others around him due to the amount of time he seems to take on the ball/his poor touch and his growingly annoying habit of turning his back toward goal almost every time he receives the ball in a dangerous area.

Is it not too much to ask for a number 10 to be able to score a good amount of goals whilst also acting as a creative force through the middle, creating chances that will end up in more goals for the team as a whole. If you look at every other top team around in the world, they have someone in that position that is capable of doing both.

As for the bold, the 'others' you mention were not playing 70% of the season as a striker. He only actually played 3 league games in midfield in the whole of last season. Besides, it is not exactly a good argument to use other players shortcomings to justify Rooney's.

Please read this article.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ne-rooneys-201415-stats-to-his-201516-numbers

 

[nick2004]

Why do so many people bring up the 15 in all competitions?
He scored 3 against Brugge in 2 legs?
Even Memphis could score 30 goals, if we played Brugge 38 times in a season. And Memphis is absolutely dire!
In any case, the best way of judging a goal scorer is his goals in the league.
We play each team twice and the standard is high. We don't play Shrewsbury, Midgetland or Brugge, in the EPL.

He scored 8 league goals last season. And 1 CL goal.

15 goals...

The point is that everyone else did even worse! The answer to this thread is very simple: even last year, Rooney was better than most of our players.

Does anyone remember all these discussions about Tony V? How terrible he is? The comparisons with Rafael? Why does the manager still play Tony? We had dozens of those threads!

Well... the hatters better prepare themselves for Rooney's new 5-year contract! Such news might be devastating for some sensitive souls!

 

[santeria13]

The point is that everyone else did even worse! The answer to this thread is very simple: even last year, Rooney was better than most of our players.

Does anyone remember all these discussions about Tony V? How terrible he is? The comparisons with Rafael? Why does the manager still play Tony? We had dozens of those threads!

Well... the hatters better prepare themselves for Rooney's new 5-year contract! Such news might be devastating for some sensitive souls!

You're really going to tell me that other players were 'worse' because they simply did not score as many goals as Rooney? Feck me, you've missed the whole point of any argument of him not warranting a starting place. The issue with Rooney has never been how many goals he can score. Rather, it is the question of do the amounts of goal he scores justify him playing utter shite for the most part.

Besides, he played 70% of the season as striker so it is quite fair to judge him on how many goals he scored last season and quite pointless to compare him with others around the pitch who have other significant strengths in their game that are not goal scoring. Rooney on the other hand seems to have forgotten how to play football unless it comes to putting the ball in the net and even then as pointed out by the poster you are replying to and by myself, he was quite poor in this regard too despite being the furthest up the pitch for the majority of the season.

Besides there is no point comparing him with other players when the whole point of my argument was stating his ineffectiveness in the hole due to him not possessing any of the skills vital for that role except for his ability to pop up with goals; which is becoming less and less frequent in itself and certainly not strong enough to justify the rest of his game being so poor.

You are suggesting he deserves his new 5 year contract and those who find the concept ridiculous are 'hatters' ? I have to thank you for that last line as this will be the last post I ever waste my time writing to argue against such delusion.

 

[SteveJ]

the hatters better prepare themselves for Rooney's new 5-year contract!

I take my hate off to him.

 

[santeria13]

I take my hate off to him.

 

[nick2004]

You're really going to tell me that

Rooney played 70% of the season as striker so it is quite fair to judge him on how many goals he scored and quite pointless to compare him with others around the pitch who have other significant strengths in their game that are not goal scoring. Rooney on the other hand seems to have forgotten how to play football unless it comes to putting the ball in the net and even then as pointed out by the poster you are replying to and by myself, he was quite poor in this regard too despite being the furthest up the pitch for the majority of the season.

Besides there is no point comparing him with other players when the whole point of my argument was stating his ineffectiveness in the hole due to him not possessing any of the skills vital for that role except for his ability to pop up with goals; which is becoming less and less frequent in itself and certainly not strong enough to justify the rest of his game being so poor.

I think I've answered the question of the thread. Even in this first game of the season, Rooney had a goal, a good chance blocked by their keeper, 90% good passes (among the best in our team), the pundits considered him among our best players and because of his stats (an objecting measurement) he was included in the best-11 from ALL 20 teams! So, both people and numbers were happy! But haters refuse to see any of that. They are stuck in their world. All managers are stupid, why do they play Rooney, why is he in our first 11? Well... the world is a mystery my friend!

 

[Red Dreams]

Rooney sounded a tad defensive in his post match interview. I want him to break Charlton's record. But if the stories of us trying to get Barbosa are true, I suspect he will be gone Next season...or even in January.

 

[nick2004]

You are suggesting he deserves his new 5 year contract and those who find the concept ridiculous are 'hatters' ? I have to thank you for that last line as this will be the last post I ever waste my time writing to argue against such delusion.

What I am suggesting is that haters should prepare themselves psychologically for Rooney's new 5-year contract because this may hurt them (psychologically)!

 

[santeria13]

I think I've answered the question of the thread. Even in this first game of the season, Rooney had a goal, a good chance blocked by their keeper, 90% good passes (among the best in our team), the pundits considered him among our best players and because of his stats (an objecting measurement) he was included in the best-11 from ALL 20 teams! So, both people and numbers were happy! But haters refuse to see any of that. They are stuck in their world. All managers are stupid, why do they play Rooney, why is he in our first 11? Well... the world is a mystery my friend!

numbers, stats, passing accuracy, incompetent managers favoring him, pundits and the media drooling over him, and anyone who can't see his brilliance is a 'hater' with an agenda. Amazing. You fit the stereotypical defender type perfectly. The others would be proud.

 

[santeria13]

What I am suggesting is that haters should prepare themselves psychologically for Rooney's new 5-year contract because this may hurt them (psychologically)!

He's not getting any new 5 year contract and Mourinho will eventually phase him out of the starting XI. You can quote me on this in the future.

 

[Rada]

I think I've answered the question of the thread. Even in this first game of the season, Rooney had a goal, a good chance blocked by their keeper, 90% good passes (among the best in our team), the pundits considered him among our best players and because of his stats (an objecting measurement) he was included in the best-11 from ALL 20 teams! So, both people and numbers were happy! But haters refuse to see any of that. They are stuck in their world. All managers are stupid, why do they play Rooney, why is he in our first 11? Well... the world is a mystery my friend!

Obviously since you haven't watched the game and all about stats go watch this, maybe you won't ride Rooney that much.
In one side there is 1 goal, 90% passing, and all that, in the other side there is his actual perfomance.

 

[AR87]

Didn't watch the game live, but after reading the reaction on the caf to his performance I was expecting much worse.

That being said it's obvious that between him, Fellaini and Herrera effectively operating as a midfield 3 with Zlatan and Mata also dropping deep that we lacked a bit of penetration and directness in our play. In that issue I find Rooney to be the most culpable as I feel that while he's playing as a No. 10 he needs to make runs forward when Zlatan drops, be able to carry the ball foward and drive at the defense if he receives it deep or be willing to try to play in Zlatan, Martial or Mata with more direct forward passing.

I did think he was better about making forward runs as the game went on, but I'd drop him for Mkhi or Mata at 10 and like to see if Rashford can be effective making runs in behind from the RW position.

 

[fishfingers15]

I'm no Rooney hater, but some of his sympathizers reasoning that all three managers picked Rooney as if it is some super irrefutable logic while shredding LvG and Moyes as complete idiots are a bit funny.

 

[Bobcat]

The thing is, Rooney isn't a #10. His two best attributes are his distribution in the middle of the park when he's under little pressure and his finishing and striker's instincts up front. Those were the things that drew praise on Sunday. He got into scoring positions and got on the ball and passed it around whenever he didn't lose it. He didn't actually create chances for others, though. Playing him in what is usually the position of the primary position so he can both drop deep and pass it around a bit or move up and have a pop at goal whenever he fancies while he completely neglects the job he's supposed to do in that position makes little sense.

Agree, but i would not exactly call the first one a good attribute. Getting loads of space and time in MF is something most teams won't afford you. This is also exactly why he never was going to reinvent himself as a CM. While his range of passing is good, he simply can not do them quick enough for it to be effective.

His finishing is also still relatively good, but it hardly justifies giving him a starting spot. Rooney was the kind of player that bullied defenders with pace, strength and determination. It's only natural that he will decline faster than a striker relying on guile and technique to get their goals

 

[Bobcat]

But of course!

Rooney, a striker, scored 15 goals in all competitions last year. The only player who scored more was Martial with 17. And Rooney was actually playing deep midfield!... But the question is ... "why is Rooney in the first 11"!!!

But it doesn't matter. Goals don't matter. Statistics don't matter. The hatters have a ... "feeling", the hatters know best! Sure! Of course! Definitely!

Three of which were penalties, and three against an absolutely dreadful Club Brugge. Actually, he only scored eight league goals all season (penalties included). Besides, he played in an advanced role in the vast majority of games, either as a #10 or a CF

Not saying it was all Rooneys fault, much of it was down to Van Gaals shithouse tactics, but let's not pretend his stats were impressive last season, because they simply are not.

 

[Sarni]

Apparently we won't extend his contract for the next 18 months but might give him a new deal afterwards. I don't know the source of this as it's only a notification on my phone but if we do that I can see some serious outrage

 

[Red Stone]

Three of which were penalties, and three against an absolutely dreadful Club Brugge. Actually, he only scored eight league goals all season (penalties included). Besides, he played in an advanced role in the vast majority of games, either as a #10 or a CF

Not saying it was all Rooneys fault, much of it was down to Van Gaals shithouse tactics, but let's not pretend his stats were impressive last season, because they simply are not.

Rooney's 15 goals broken down:

6 goals against opposition far below PL standard (Derby, Ipswich, Sheffield United, Brugge x3)
4 goals against the bottom five in the league (Sunderland, Bournemouth, Newcastle x2)
2 goals against the remaining bottom half teams (Swansea, Everton)

Two of those goals were penalties (Newcastle and Sheffield United).

That leaves the goals against Liverpool, CSKA Moscow and Stoke.

If any of our players were padding their stats against shite opposition it was Rooney. Rashford in comparison got half of his eight goals against teams in the top 7. Martial scored almost half his goals (8/17) against top half opposition, not counting the goals against CSKA and Wolfsburg.

Blaming LVG for Rooney's lack of goals only tells half the story. Rashford and Martial had no problem scoring plenty of goals against the good teams in the league. Rooney couldn't score a single goal against the English teams that qualified for CL or Europa. To me that tells a story of a player who gets completely shut out as soon as he faces a top level defence. I'm almost certain that has something to do with the fact that a player can't really do any sort of damage against good defenders with a blatant lack of pace and a rubbish first touch on top of that.

 

[dichinero]

Rooney's 15 goals broken down:

6 goals against opposition far below PL standard (Derby, Ipswich, Sheffield United, Brugge x3)
4 goals against the bottom five in the league (Sunderland, Bournemouth, Newcastle x2)
2 goals against the remaining bottom half teams (Swansea, Everton)

Two of those goals were penalties (Newcastle and Sheffield United).

That leaves the goals against Liverpool, CSKA Moscow and Stoke.

Bookmarked

 

[Fitchett]

Rooney's 15 goals broken down:

6 goals against opposition far below PL standard (Derby, Ipswich, Sheffield United, Brugge x3)
4 goals against the bottom five in the league (Sunderland, Bournemouth, Newcastle x2)
2 goals against the remaining bottom half teams (Swansea, Everton)

Two of those goals were penalties (Newcastle and Sheffield United).

That leaves the goals against Liverpool, CSKA Moscow and Stoke.

If any of our players were padding their stats against shite opposition it was Rooney. Rashford in comparison got half of his eight goals against teams in the top 7. Martial scored almost half his goals (8/17) against top half opposition, not counting the goals against CSKA and Wolfsburg.

Blaming LVG for Rooney's lack of goals only tells half the story. Rashford and Martial had no problem scoring plenty of goals against the good teams in the league. Rooney couldn't score a single goal against the English teams that qualified for CL or Europa. To me that tells a story of a player who gets completely shut out as soon as he faces a top level defence. I'm almost certain that has something to do with the fact that a player can't really do any sort of damage against good defenders with a blatant lack of pace and a rubbish first touch on top of that.

That objective analysis supports the subjective views held by 90% of Caf members, myself included.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

It's pretty remarkable really.

That's why he had such a horrible 2015, he wasn't even scoring the goals to mask how shit he was.

Giggs used to do this often.

One superb pass or brilliant goal and he would even get MOTM.

Rooney is there on reputation and expectation at the moment. If on form wtf are the others doing in training

 

[Android1974]

Like carragher pointed out, pogba could see the benefit if rooney is dropping deeper filling in the space of Pogba, if Pogba wants to drive forward…

Alright, I see... To counter Guardiola's, Mourinho's tactical innovation will be something around Ibra dropping deeper on Rooney's space, Rooney dropping deeper on Pogba's space... Like a choo-choo train going slowly backwards. Who else could drop deeper?

 

[Minimalist]

Are we just going to pretend that Rooney didn't start damn near every game he was fit for last season? That makes his stats look even more unremarkable.

And who the hell is comparing other players to him (in terms of goals scored!?): who other than Rashford got a consistent run of games as the main striker? Martial didn't.

 

[nick2004]

It is total bullshit to count how many goals players scored against "strong" or "weak" opposition. It means nothing! If we had won one more game against "weak" opposition... no... correct that, if we had just won one more point against "weak" opposition, then we'd be in CL. We'd enjoy watching our team play against the best teams in Europe instead of watching them play against dross on Thursdays. We only needed one more goal against "weak" opposition... but none of our players was capable of providing that. Perhaps it's not as easy as some people believe. Perhaps it's not easy to score 246 goals.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Rooney, Zlatan and Fellaini...Ragspiracy!

I'm shocked Blind didn't make that list. Thought he was immense

 

[dichinero]

It is total bullshit to count how many goals players scored against "strong" or "weak" opposition. It means nothing! If we had won one more game against "weak" opposition... no... correct that, if we had just won one more point against "weak" opposition, then we'd be in CL. We'd enjoy watching our team play against the best teams in Europe instead of watching them play against dross on Thursdays. We only needed one more goal against "weak" opposition... but none of our players was capable of providing that. Perhaps it's not as easy as some people believe. Perhaps it's not easy to score 246 goals.

You are happy to pull out stats but when someone else analyses the stats you moan!

 

[EyeInTheSky]

I don't know who these hat folks are but ok.

Are these hatters mad?