Roy Keane's performance vs Juventus

[El Jefe]

This will probably be a very unpopular opinion but reading through the "10/10 performance" thread I felt this would merit its own discussion. When talking about great Manchester United performances, Keane's against Juve in Turin is often seen as the greatest performance by a United player and in some quarters any player in recent times.

Now I'd be clinically insane to say that it was not a great performance but my gripe with the common opinion on this match is that it was an 'individual performance' where Keane was head and shoulders better than everyone else on the pitch. That to me is an absolute false representation of the game and the myth seems to have grown bigger over the years. I think the fact that he scored our first goal and produced such a display knowing he wouldn't play in the final is what creates this myth of an individual great performance.

An individual performance IMO is one where a player is so clearly better than everyone else on the pitch e.g Messi vs Bayern where he butchered Boateng and many others. I've rewatched the game many times and really do think its one of the greatest TEAM performances rather than an individual performance. Yorke, Cole, Butt, Becks and Keane could have all got 10/10 for that performance because all were unplayable especially the front two. Juve's world class defenders shat themselves every time they got the ball.

I was 12 at the time and have fond memories of the game. I guess you could say I was too young appreciate the true impact of the performance at the time. On the other hand the evidence from rewatching the game a few times doesn't point towards being an individual performance.

 

[Brwned]

I think the beauty of the performance is in the metronome-like quality of his passing and positional play allied with the undeniably inspirational goal, against one of the great club sides. That alone justifies it's discussion in one of the great united performances.

I agree it was a great performance from a number of players but it's Keane that provided that platform both mentally and tactically. The circumstances of his suspension then make it heroic.

On a purely technical / tactical / whatever basis, it might not be right up there, but to remove the emotional element of it would be to exclude one of the most beautiful parts of football and sport.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

This will probably be a very unpopular opinion but reading through the "10/10 performance" thread I felt this would merit its own discussion. When talking about great Manchester United performances, Keane's against Juve in Turin is often seen as the greatest performance by a United player and in some quarters any player in recent times.

Now I'd be clinically insane to say that it was not a great performance but my gripe with the common opinion on this match is that it was an 'individual performance' where Keane was head and shoulders better than everyone else on the pitch. That to me is an absolute false representation of the game and the myth seems to have grown bigger over the years. I think the fact that he scored our first goal and produced such a display knowing he wouldn't play in the final is what creates this myth of an individual great performance.

An individual performance IMO is one where a player is so clearly better than everyone else on the pitch e.g Messi vs Bayern where he butchered Boateng and many others. I've rewatched the game many times and really do think its one of the greatest TEAM performances rather than an individual performance. Yorke, Cole, Butt, Becks and Keane could have all got 10/10 for that performance because all were unplayable especially the front two. Juve's world class defenders shat themselves every time they got the ball.

I was 12 at the time and have fond memories of the game. I guess you could say I was too young appreciate the true impact of the performance at the time. On the other hand the evidence from rewatching the game a few times doesn't point towards being an individual performance.

In general I'd agree. Keane played very, very well especially in the personal circumstances.

To come back from such a terrible position away to Juve (in effect, the Barca of their day) was remarkable and Keane's leadership, goal scoring and consistent excellence was a big part of why the comeback happened. But Giggs late equaliser in the first leg, as well as our dynamic forward line were very important.

People do mythologise the past, there's lots of examples:
1. Keane - seemingly reduced to a midfield enforcer "DM" in the minds of many (mainly younger) fans
2. Scholes - retconned into a guaranteed starter, despite the fact that it wasn't until the early 2000s that he truly cemented a place in the staring 11 (Butt preferred, Veron, Ronnie, etc) save the year of Keane's horror injury, no matter how many Zidane rent-a-quotes you throw out there.
3. Barthez - apparently a disaster, and whilst it didn't end well, he was fantastic for at least his first season.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Yeah I remember that game. 10 out of 10 for me. Box to box master.

 

[MounchesterUtd]

I had only started watching football about 1-1.5 years before this game and hadn't known anything outside of Serie A. Immense performance that opened my eyes not just to United but football in general. The word transcendent gets thrown around too much lately, but it perfect describes this performance.

To come back from such a terrible position away to Juve (in effect, the Barca of their day)

Nah, that was Real Madrid. Juve was more like the Bayern of the mid-late 90s. One CL and always in the mix for more, but never quite getting over the hump.

 

[El Jefe]

I think the beauty of the performance is in the metronome-like quality of his passing and positional play allied with the undeniably inspirational goal, against one of the great club sides. That alone justifies it's discussion in one of the great united performances.

I agree it was a great performance from a number of players but it's Keane that provided that platform both mentally and tactically. The circumstances of his suspension then make it heroic.

On a purely technical / tactical / whatever basis, it might not be right up there, but to remove the emotional element of it would be to exclude one of the most beautiful parts of football and sport.

I agree on a lot of your points but do we say because of a fairy tale narrative that the performance should be rated higher than Yorke's for example?. That's what I'm not sure I agree on. Several players played a blinder but to this day Keane gets lavished with the plaudits as if it was a one man show.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

I had only started watching football about 1-1.5 years before this game and hadn't known anything outside of Serie A. Immense performance that opened my eyes not just to United but football in general. The word transcendent gets thrown around too much lately, but it perfect describes this performance.



Nah, that was Real Madrid. Juve was more like the Bayern of the mid-late 90s. One CL and always in the mix for more, but never quite getting over the hump.

Juve were the best team, in the best league who had just been to, if memory serves, the preceding 3 finals (admittedly losing the latest to Madrid).

Madrid were good but not dominant domestically or in Europe.

I'd have considered Juve the best team in Europe mid to late 90s and certainly was not confident of beating them away from home. We were underdogs in that game, in a similar way to how we were underdogs to Barca last decade (although more so even as I thought we could take Barca in the first final).

 

[Fingeredmouse]

I agree on a lot of your points but do we say because of a fairy tale narrative that the performance should be rated higher than Yorke's for example?. That's what I'm not sure I agree on. Several players played a blinder but to this day Keane gets lavished with the plaudits as if it was a one man show.

He was the best player and leader of a great team. Certainly not a one man show, but a brilliant performance, as much psychologically as physically and it is understandable that it is rated as a 10/10 by many. I can't think of many more important performances certainly.

 

[MrMarcello]

Keane was absolutely phenomenal that match. I still remember that goal, out of nowhere on the corner, when it looked like Juve were about to smash United off the pitch. Completely changed the momentum. The whole side was inspired from that point on. Keane epitomized the mad man tag that day.

Can't remember the exact game, think it was the Inter 2nd leg, when Berg played arguably his best match in United colors. He was immense in that match. Then got crocked and missed the last few weeks if memory serves. Back then SAF could just toss Berg, Johnsen, even May to an extent, out there and both often performed, granted Stam was often the partner CB which was a great help.

 

[Billy Blaggs]

Beckham, Cole and Yorke were as good as him that night. It was just his aggressive drive and will to win every tackle and mental battle that was the spring board for them to feed off of.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Keane was absolutely phenomenal that match. I still remember that goal, out of nowhere on the corner, when it looked like Juve were about to smash United off the pitch. Completely changed the momentum. The whole side was inspired from that point on. Keane epitomized the mad man tag that day.

Can't remember the exact game, think it was the Inter 2nd leg, when Berg played arguably his best match in United colors. He was immense in that match. Then got crocked and missed the last few weeks if memory serves. Back then SAF could just toss Berg, Johnsen, even May to an extent, out there and both often performed, granted Stam was often the partner CB which was a great help.

Yes, Inter away. When we got away with the penalty after Schmeichel brought down Zamorano I think.

 

[pacifictheme]

Keane led them. It was his performance that drove the rest of them on.

We were brilliant as a team, but it was Keane who inspired it. That coupled with him playing so well has turned it in to the stuff of legend.

 

[Harry190]

You can only have one king, there's only one crown.

 

[harms]

There are different kind of outstanding individual performances. As a midfielder, you can control the game from the beginning, creating goalscoring chances for your partners etc - see Xavi's performance in 2012 Euro final for example.

But sometimes (and it happens more often to a lesser team and players, to an extent) you have to overpower a superior force - and Juventus, the best team of that period, scoring 2 goals in the first 11 minutes... With Zidane, Davids and Deschamps in midfield and Ferrara leading the defence... It was a challenge as tough as it gets - and Keane provided flawless captain performance, showcasing his, first of all, mental qualities, to unite the team around him and to give them hope of succeeding, even after knowing that he will miss the next game anyway.

If we're talking about his performance on the ball - it isn't 10/10. But if we count the mental side and his leadership, it is - it's one of the most inspiring performances in the history of the sport.

 

[Yagami]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. The team were all good no doubt, but Keane was something else, and he was the one to spur us on. A true 10/10 performance if there ever was one.

 

[pacifictheme]

In general I'd agree. Keane played very, very well especially in the personal circumstances.

To come back from such a terrible position away to Juve (in effect, the Barca of their day) was remarkable and Keane's leadership, goal scoring and consistent excellence was a big part of why the comeback happened. But Giggs late equaliser in the first leg, as well as our dynamic forward line were very important.

People do mythologise the past, there's lots of examples:
1. Keane - seemingly reduced to a midfield enforcer "DM" in the minds of many (mainly younger) fans
2. Scholes - retconned into a guaranteed starter, despite the fact that it wasn't until the early 2000s that he truly cemented a place in the staring 11 (Butt preferred, Veron, Ronnie, etc) save the year of Keane's horror injury, no matter how many Zidane rent-a-quotes you throw out there.
3. Barthez - apparently a disaster, and whilst it didn't end well, he was fantastic for at least his first season.

That scholes bit is weird. His number of appearances doesn't really change from 97/98 through to mid 2000s. In the league or overall. He was ahead of Butt as well in the team. Although fergie did at times rotate, but that was the same for just about any player. His first three seasons were lower (but comparible to butt) but i've never seen the point you're arguing against even made...

 

[Fingeredmouse]

That scholes bit is weird. His number of appearances doesn't really change from 97/98 through to mid 2000s. In the league or overall. He was ahead of Butt as well in the team. Although fergie did at times rotate, but that was the same for just about any player. His first three seasons were lower (but comparible to butt) but i've never seen the point you're arguing against even made...

Yes, perhaps I was inarticulate.

He broke through later than Butt and Butt was often preferred to him. From about 97 to 00 their appearance stats are similar indeed: post this point Scholes became more dominant, pre Butt was.

The point I was making is that there is a general impression, mythologising if you will, that Scholes was a first team guaranteed starter if fit, which he wan't really until the early 2000s and even this was interrupted by Veron (where Scholes ended up on the wing, if he got picked).

Great player, but not a dominant figure, relative to even some of his peers, until later in his career. But I'll shut up now to salvage the thread.

 

[Rory 7]

It was 100% a 10:10 performance. Epic.

 

[AndyJ1985]

He was a true leader, an inspirational player who would lift the entire team when the chips were down. On that night he was determined to get us back in to that match no matter what it took; he would have ran through a brick wall if necessary. There's more to football than silky skills and stunning goals; the mentality, drive, determination, and aggression that he displayed was legendary. He was a box to box machine. It's a perfect example of a 10/10 performance from a midfielder.

 

[Tarrou]

Vaguely remember an interview with Keano where he played down the performance, saying it was good but not his best. I don't remember enough to call it a 9/10 or 10/10, but it's definitely up there!

This video is brilliant in case you haven't seen it.

 

[Tribec]

He was a true leader, an inspirational player who would lift the entire team when the chips were down. On that night he was determined to get us back in to that match no matter what it took; he would have ran through a brick wall if necessary. There's more to football than silky skills and stunning goals; the mentality, drive, determination, and aggression that he displayed was legendary. He was a box to box machine. It's a perfect example of a 10/10 performance from a midfielder.

This is why it was 10/10 performance and the other thing to note for the OP, is that we only see a fraction of what goes on the pitch when watching on TV, you don't see half the pitch where Keane was directing players, screaming at them, encouraging them etc. It was an outstanding display that night from Keane.

 

[Stack]

Time sadly means that people dont see or know about events, players or team performances of the past. Its a natural process and one day Keanes effort will be seen as lesser by a new hero. For some of us Best against Benfica sits as the best ever performance by a Utd player but of course all these things are subjective.
I think one of the really important things about Keanes effort that day against Juventus was his attitude once booked. He put his own feelings aside and got on with the job. Thats pure gold.

 

[ghagua]

The reason why people rate it 10 out of 10 is because not only did he perform, but he drove the team to perform as well. Before that, we usually used to line up to get beaten every time we played an Italian team.

 

[MounchesterUtd]

Juve were the best team, in the best league who had just been to, if memory serves, the preceding 3 finals (admittedly losing the latest to Madrid).

Madrid were good but not dominant domestically or in Europe.

I'd have considered Juve the best team in Europe mid to late 90s and certainly was not confident of beating them away from home. We were underdogs in that game, in a similar way to how we were underdogs to Barca last decade (although more so even as I thought we could take Barca in the first final).

Fair enough, although I'd argue that La Liga was pretty dead even (okay, maybe just a little bit lower) with Serie A at that point - LVG's Barca, the first Galacticos, Super Depor and those Valencia sides were all stacked

But sometimes (and it happens more often to a lesser team and players, to an extent) you have to overpower a superior force - and Juventus, the best team of that period, scoring 2 goals in the first 11 minutes... With Zidane, Davids and Deschamps in midfield and Ferrara leading the defence...

I can't find a source for it now, but I recall Zidane saying that it was the exact point that he started to question his future with Juve. Could be my memory playing tricks on me, but imagine getting schooled 1 on 3 though. Demoralizing!

 

[FujiVice]

He definitely drove the team to that performance. We lost our arse in the first 10 minutes. We crumbled and shipped two goals. This isnt like an old fairy tail told by pundits either. This is a story a lot of the players who played that night told. We lost our bottle and Keane inspired them that it was far from finished.

 

[Alock1]

Vaguely remember an interview with Keano where he played down the performance, saying it was good but not his best. I don't remember enough to call it a 9/10 or 10/10, but it's definitely up there!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/25307471

Keane believes Ferguson's praise for him in his recently-released autobiography for "covering every blade of grass" in United's 1999 Champions League semi-final second leg against Juventus was disparaging.

"Stuff like that almost insults me. I get offended when people give quotes like that about me. It's like praising the postman for delivering letters," he said.

 

[Stack]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/25307471
Keane believes Ferguson's praise for him in his recently-released autobiography for "covering every blade of grass" in United's 1999 Champions League semi-final second leg against Juventus was disparaging.
"Stuff like that almost insults me. I get offended when people give quotes like that about me. It's like praising the postman for delivering letters," he said.

Keane can be such an arsehole at times.

 

[bpet15]

The fact that some are saying this was a 10/10 is absolutely laughable - it was easily an 11/10 or 12/10 for me.

A true captains performance. Absolutely awe-inspiring and one for the ages.

 

[PvsNP]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/25307471

Lol, what can SAF say about Keane that doesn't irk him?

 

[senorgregster]

I thought David May's performance was the key.

I watched this with a Juve fun. Glorious. Just glorious.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I had thought his goal came after the yellow card

 

[The Brown Bull]

I disagree with the OP strongly.
Keane's performance I that game away to a very good Juve team was , given the context, probably the greatest individual performance I've seen from a United player in almost 50 years following the club.
Sure Becks, Yorke and Cole were all excellent on the night but Keane was the man who inspired them and drove them on to glory.
Perfect display of leadership by example.
If Pogba turns out to be half the player Keane was we are in for some good times.

 

[Scarr]

I honestly think about this performance at least once every so often. It's usually just for a brief moment but there's always something that triggers it. I doubt it'll ever be topped. You'd imagine any modern day player if in the same position as Keano was would crumble and go missing. What a man.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I think great individual performances are often overstated. This is not Basketball where one player can carry a team to victory. Football is the ultimate team sport. You are going to need everyone clicking to get a great performance.

 

[alanjohnson]

Juve were the best team, in the best league who had just been to, if memory serves, the preceding 3 finals (admittedly losing the latest to Madrid).

Madrid were good but not dominant domestically or in Europe.

I'd have considered Juve the best team in Europe mid to late 90s and certainly was not confident of beating them away from home. We were underdogs in that game, in a similar way to how we were underdogs to Barca last decade (although more so even as I thought we could take Barca in the first final).

Don't forget Del Piero was not playing in those games, he was injured I think. with him in the squad they'd have beaten us. We were outplayed at old trafford and lucky.

 

[pacifictheme]

Vaguely remember an interview with Keano where he played down the performance, saying it was good but not his best. I don't remember enough to call it a 9/10 or 10/10, but it's definitely up there!

This video is brilliant in case you haven't seen it.

That one bit where everyone is celebrating and the camera goes onto keane, then scholes, who are both clearly coming to terms with missing the final. They look devastated. Luckily scholes got his winners medal. Shame Keane never did.

 

[stevoc]

Nah, that was Real Madrid. Juve was more like the Bayern of the mid-late 90s. One CL and always in the mix for more, but never quite getting over the hump.

Nah coming into that season Juve were the dominant side in the late 90's, 3 finals in a row until that season. Best team in the top league in europe also, they won the previous two Serie A titles.

 

[ZAGREB RED]

Typified RK really, that performance, he got booked but started the fight back at 2-0 down when I am sure most United fans watching thought it was all over, then showed the way to the rest of the team and pulled them up by their bootstraps to claim a momentous win.

 

[GBBQ]

Madness, how can you question that performance as being anything other than legendary. We were 2-0 down away from home after 12 minutes against one of the best teams in Europe. yes maybe a couple of players also had great games by the time the final whistle blew but that's only because Keane refused to let the head drop. It was a Captains performance not just in terms of football but also in terms of setting an example to the team.

In real time people talked about Keane's impact being amazing and the stuff of legend but now nearly 20 years later you believe your hazy memories as a 12 year old are more insightful.

 

[sincher]

It is certainly true that we had a number of leaders on the pitch; a number of others who were not about to lie down. But Keane was the top of the pile.