I think he's definitely lost some of his spark. His demeanor has changed the last few years, lost that aura. Although he has been let down by his players (his 'better' players in particular). He should get time, he deserves it and more upheaval won't really help anyone.
To the posters saying Mourinho is done
- Thread starter VP89
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What a terrible attempt
You seriously fail to see a worrying trend? We've failed to win a single match of the three where we've met other teams we're supposed to be competing with at the top, in addition to dropping points in two of the six other matches that we "should" have won. Despite spending triple digit amount of millions on new players, there's no visible increase in performance. In fact, of the four players that were brought in, only one has been able to show anything that even warrants a starting place over the course of the nine league games we've played so far. And we've already passed a quarter of the season.
And then there's this:
Over a stretch that equals 70% of a full season, our manager has lost half the matches with the team he's been in charge of. And it's not as if he's been managing Sunderland or Aston Villa.
I'm not saying we won't turn it around, but anyone denying that there are seriously worrying signs already needs to have a closer look at the situation we're currently finding ourselves in.
We told you so? Its October ffs and we're 6 off top.
Rashford and Martial have been given plenty of chances. You all moaned youth would never get played but Lingard (who is now moaned about) has been a starting feature and Rashford has come into the team. The only exclusion has been Martial who was in bad form and is finding his way back in so he hasn't proved he should start at all.
As you say he has brought the ignored Herrera in as a key figure and recognised Rooney shouldn't start. He's learning his team and has made some big changes already.
We've played against Liverpool away, Chelsea away and Stoke home. The last one, we should have won. The rest are quite difficult games especially when our CB decides to play for the opposition. Jeez, calm downWhat a terrible attempt
You seriously fail to see a worrying trend? We've failed to win a single match of the three where we've met other teams we're supposed to be competing with at the top, in addition to dropping points in two of the six other matches that we "should" have won. Despite spending triple digit amount of millions on new players, there's no visible increase in performance. In fact, of the four players that were brought in, only one has been able to show anything that even warrants a starting place over the course of the nine league games we've played so far. And we've already passed a quarter of the season.
And then there's this:
Over a stretch that equals 70% of a full season, our manager has lost half the matches with the team he's been in charge of. And it's not as if he's been managing Sunderland or Aston Villa.
I'm not saying we won't turn it around, but anyone denying that there are seriously worrying signs already needs to have a closer look at the situation we're currently finding ourselves in.
Shocking stat tbh.
Chelsea away is surely a difficult game, still doesnt make a 4-0 trashing acceptable. They're not Barcelona.
If our CB decided to play for the opposition as Smalling did against Chelsea then would probably end up with that same result even against Stoke
It is far from over but the start is very poor. United are practically 6 points off 5th as the other teams have a much better GD. Being 6 points off 5th after just 9 games is pathetic.
The most worrying part is not the bad start but the fact that United are the laziest team in the league in terms of covered distance. This is a very serious problem that most fans choose to neglect citing obscure tactical reasons. If you get outrun, chances are you will struggle. This is a failrly simple notion and if Mou doesn't grasp it, he's done.
If it was solely Smalling he could easily have taken him off after 2-0 for example, however it wasnt sadly. The majority of the team werent good enough, same goes for Blind, Fellaini, Pogba, Lingard, Zlatan, Rashford for example. It's also bizarre that Mata didnt start, he's been our best forward player so far this season in performances.
In Joses defense, he will get given time because there's a lot of work to do and he's shown over time he can do a great job. People saying he's done etc are reactionary. It's up to the players to respond. Not on twitter etc but on the pitch. His Chelsea team downed tools so that stat is made to look worse then it is. The players are a disgrace as probably are their fans who have forgotten. The league is quite competitive right now and it might take a season or two - to weed out the weak minded players who maybe take it for granted. Sir Alex took time to build his team and though financially we're a different beast to what we once were, we still have to be patient. If we trust the man and I think he will be a very good Unite manager, then people have to be smart. It could be that the distraction of the Europa league will make it difficult for us this season. That was always a possibility. Jose needs to be able to say this is my team ..and right now he cannot. You cannot sell half a squad in one summer...it's a gradual thing.
The game against Chelsea was sloppy defense from us. A blind official (what a surprise). Missed chances. They scored four not because they were great but because they broke well and everything they hit went in. These days happen. Let's be happy it was at theirs so we can duff them at Old Trafford.
The game against Chelsea was sloppy defense from us. A blind official (what a surprise). Missed chances. They scored four not because they were great but because they broke well and everything they hit went in. These days happen. Let's be happy it was at theirs so we can duff them at Old Trafford.
By that time the game was sealed. Also whom exactly we could replace Smalling with? Rojo? Jones? (oh wait he's injured again, that's surprising isn't it?)
We (and that include myself) have entered a loop were we think that we can change things just by playing this average player instead of that average player when in reality the team is quite crap and there's not much space to change either.
Jeez, that's a terrible stat.
Posted on another thread about Jose a while back when you lost three in a row. Said it was far too early to judge then and will say it's too early now. The parallels with Chelsea last season are still there though. Good players becoming bad players. Not sure who's in the best 11. Not sure what the game plan is or what plan B is. In his first spell at Chelsea the noticeable thing on the pitch was the work ethic and winning mentality along with a clear plan to keep the ball. Pass it around at the back and frustrate the opposition. I don't know what he said in the dressing room but it worked and you could see the change on the pitch. His motivational skills must have been exceptional.
During his second spell it didn't come together so quickly and the team really only got going in the second season. A new centre forward linking up with Hazard and quick passing in the opponents last third. This worked fine but he got spanked by Tottenham at Xmas and reverted to a much more defensive set up to just get them over the line. Some thing wasn't quite right but they got over the line with a solid defence and sneaking wins. A slight deterioration masked by success.
Last season for Chelsea will go down in history as one of the greatest mysteries of all time, results started poor but a few false dawns kept us all hopeful. We would win a game but the draws kept on coming and then we'd lose a couple in row. All the time certain players losing form completely. Stupid errors creeping in and eventually becoming the norm. There were signs, particularly when Costa threw his Hi-Vis jacket at Jose behind his back, that the players weren't taking him seriously and had lost some respect. There's no way that would have happened in his first spell. The signs were that he lost the dressing room. The board really did stick with Jose long after it was apparent he was failing. It was like the board were overseeing a stand off between Jose and the players. Would the players gets sacked or would it be Jose. Parallels?
The problem with Jose these days, and this has always been a problem for him, is that his antics do not command respect. I know I'm probably biased but he really shouldn't have got into Conte's ear so fervently after yesterdays final whistle. The Italian press are reporting that he said something about it being disrespectful by whipping up the Chelsea fans because you guys were out singing the home fans, (Respect), but what gives him the right in those circumstances to tell Conte anything. His fans were doing a great job and he should have gone over and thanked them. Maybe he said something else, we don't know, but he should have shown a little humility and it didn't appear that he did. The players see stuff like this and it doesn't set a good example. If he wants his players to respect him he needs to respect others.
Yesterdays result maybe your Tottenham and a more defensive approach maybe the norm from now on but I need to conclude matters.
The response to my previous post was that MUFC are not CFC and comparisons cannot be made. I'm not making comparisons between clubs. I'm looking at a manager who isn't having much of an impact after quite a few games when in the past he would have seen a definite improvement and maybe a little less of the antics. Maybe.
During his second spell it didn't come together so quickly and the team really only got going in the second season. A new centre forward linking up with Hazard and quick passing in the opponents last third. This worked fine but he got spanked by Tottenham at Xmas and reverted to a much more defensive set up to just get them over the line. Some thing wasn't quite right but they got over the line with a solid defence and sneaking wins. A slight deterioration masked by success.
Last season for Chelsea will go down in history as one of the greatest mysteries of all time, results started poor but a few false dawns kept us all hopeful. We would win a game but the draws kept on coming and then we'd lose a couple in row. All the time certain players losing form completely. Stupid errors creeping in and eventually becoming the norm. There were signs, particularly when Costa threw his Hi-Vis jacket at Jose behind his back, that the players weren't taking him seriously and had lost some respect. There's no way that would have happened in his first spell. The signs were that he lost the dressing room. The board really did stick with Jose long after it was apparent he was failing. It was like the board were overseeing a stand off between Jose and the players. Would the players gets sacked or would it be Jose. Parallels?
The problem with Jose these days, and this has always been a problem for him, is that his antics do not command respect. I know I'm probably biased but he really shouldn't have got into Conte's ear so fervently after yesterdays final whistle. The Italian press are reporting that he said something about it being disrespectful by whipping up the Chelsea fans because you guys were out singing the home fans, (Respect), but what gives him the right in those circumstances to tell Conte anything. His fans were doing a great job and he should have gone over and thanked them. Maybe he said something else, we don't know, but he should have shown a little humility and it didn't appear that he did. The players see stuff like this and it doesn't set a good example. If he wants his players to respect him he needs to respect others.
Yesterdays result maybe your Tottenham and a more defensive approach maybe the norm from now on but I need to conclude matters.
The response to my previous post was that MUFC are not CFC and comparisons cannot be made. I'm not making comparisons between clubs. I'm looking at a manager who isn't having much of an impact after quite a few games when in the past he would have seen a definite improvement and maybe a little less of the antics. Maybe.
Exactly what I wanted to write. Knee jerk responses won't take us anywhere.
Rashford is a striker, a bloody amazing one, and he is left out-wide. Martial should have been allowed to play in to form not sit on the bench whilst Rashford is playing out wide to accomodate a dinosaur of striker up-front. Make no mistake the only reason Rashford, Lingard and Martial are in the squad was because they did the job last season, and excluding them à la Schweiny would have got the pitchforks out early.
Sure, there is a lot for Mourinho to learn. Many variations to try and the season is not over yet. But I don't have high hopes for Mou, if I'm being honest.
In defence of the performance, or lack there of this sunday. I think fatigue was defo a factor: Bailly was done on thursday night, I fully expected him to be rested this game (management thought otherwise). Has Pogba been given a break? Our spine: Zlatan (due to age and gravity), Pogba and Bailly didn't have the energy levels to put-up a fight.
Yet despite that, we looked clueless in possession.
Jose will be given time because he's Jose and the Utd board really won't want to get rid of a 3rd manager in as many years. That said, he is not the Jose that managed Chelsea (1st time), Inter and Real and I can't see where his spark has gone. Don't get me wrong, he's still a good manager but he has lost the cutting edge that made him great. Maybe he'll get it back, maybe he won't but at this moment in time, teams are not bothered about playing you home or away and all think they can get points off you.
My main concern is that Jose's overriding trait, in my opinion at least, was that of detail - in his own processes, tactics, consistency, etc. He had a way of playing and managing his players that nobody would make him waiver from.
He doesn't seem to have recovered that after last season and seems to be trying too hard to play a style that isn't his natural one. It still feels like he doesn't know his best team and that's a bit weird considering how obsessive he is (used to be?) over that.
He doesn't seem to have recovered that after last season and seems to be trying too hard to play a style that isn't his natural one. It still feels like he doesn't know his best team and that's a bit weird considering how obsessive he is (used to be?) over that.
The problem is that this aura was a big part of his success. He had this aura of invincibility, that's what made player play with confidence and fight, that's why they put up with his style of leadership and his behaviour around matches. Now the invincibility has gone in Madrid and in London and it isn't there in Manchester either, it's become more of a weakness than a strength. Yes, I told you so before the season started.
The squad is a complete mess. Mourinho is just trying varying combinations of players to try and find something that sticks, to allow us to eke out a mediocre existence until the next transfer window comes around. The next 7 months probably won't be pretty, he's got a massive job.
The one constant we've had over 3 years is the shit mentality of the team. Our attitude or work ethic behind the scenes needs tidying up. Whether Jose's lost it or not, it won't change that we have a team of inconsistent pussies. I'm sorry, but until we get the attitude right, it doesn't matter who we have in charge.
You are very wrong about Jose showing he can do a great job over time. He has proven he doesn't stay anywhere over time. He either leaves or gets sacked. At this point in time the pressure is starting to build and the "antics " are starting to look a bit silly. If the board aren't too concerned at the moment how long do you think they will tolerate a lack of improvement. A season? 2? Can't see that. He will pile so much pressure on himself before that meltdown is a distinct possibility. It looked to me like the players lost a bit of bite yesterday and that isn't a good sign. He needs a response from the players he has brought in and that needs to happen very soon. It wouldn't surprise me if he sets up very defensively for the next few games.
Mourinho must be hurting bad now, he was humiliated in front of the club who used to love him. I hope this result fires him up, in the right way.
He can hardly have a pop at Conte though after some of his antics over the years. He's like a 12 year old fan that can dish it out but runs away crying when someone gives it back
I'd hope so, it is all he has ever done well.
25 years of this we'd become worse than rawk. Lol
Well...there are loads of people like that in football...it's kind of a child's game
Yeah it's one extreme to the other with the Caf. I've full faith he will turn it round.
My main worry is how Fellaini keeps on playing. I pray he gets injured or something so someone else can come in. I fecking hate the guy and he offers us nothing.
I agree.
I also agree about Fellaini. Would much prefer to see Bastian in that position.
This a hundred 100%. One of the best posts I have seen since we lost yesterday.
It's the players, not the manager.
Our players, especially in defence, are shit.
Look at how great Baily is compared to the rest of them, and he is by no means the end product! No one would've regarded him as one of the best defender around and yet he is miles ahead of the rest of our defence.
Smalling shits himself every time in a big match. Mentally fragile. He cannot handle one on ones. Same with Blind, who shouldn't even be a defender but our alternatives are even worse than him. Valencia works hard, quick, strong but will never be a real defender. Shaw is still raw and last season sets him further back. And sadly, the rest of them is even worse!
We have not had proper top quality defenders for 3 years.
It's why LVG was fixated on keeping the ball. Because we would concede quickly if we didn't.
It's also why Mourinho plays extremely negatively against top teams. Because he has to. Most top quality attacker just dribble past Blind and Smalling. Look at Hazard and even Konte. So he has to compensate with numbers and hope someone make a block in, or intercept the pass.
It's all well and good saying we should be attacking, Jose should make an instant impact but there is only so much he can do in one window. He bought one starter for the defence, and now he's trying to work out a system that works against the best teams.
Against the lesser teams, we've been entertaining. Far better than anything we've witnessed since SAF left. We battered Leicester, we battered Stoke but luck wasn't on our side. Even against City, we started poorly (again, poor defensive errors) but if the ref didn't bottle it, it might've been different. We did ok at Anfield.
So yes, we got smashed by Chelsea but most of those are individual mistakes. Surely Jose's game plan didn't involve a collective brain fart for the first, nor Smalling turning his back on the ball to let it sit up for Cahill.
It is way too early to say he's done.
And those saying Chelsea last season, let's not forget he was replaced by another highly experienced manager, and they still didn't make it to any European competition. It wasn't all Jose.
Our players, especially in defence, are shit.
Look at how great Baily is compared to the rest of them, and he is by no means the end product! No one would've regarded him as one of the best defender around and yet he is miles ahead of the rest of our defence.
Smalling shits himself every time in a big match. Mentally fragile. He cannot handle one on ones. Same with Blind, who shouldn't even be a defender but our alternatives are even worse than him. Valencia works hard, quick, strong but will never be a real defender. Shaw is still raw and last season sets him further back. And sadly, the rest of them is even worse!
We have not had proper top quality defenders for 3 years.
It's why LVG was fixated on keeping the ball. Because we would concede quickly if we didn't.
It's also why Mourinho plays extremely negatively against top teams. Because he has to. Most top quality attacker just dribble past Blind and Smalling. Look at Hazard and even Konte. So he has to compensate with numbers and hope someone make a block in, or intercept the pass.
It's all well and good saying we should be attacking, Jose should make an instant impact but there is only so much he can do in one window. He bought one starter for the defence, and now he's trying to work out a system that works against the best teams.
Against the lesser teams, we've been entertaining. Far better than anything we've witnessed since SAF left. We battered Leicester, we battered Stoke but luck wasn't on our side. Even against City, we started poorly (again, poor defensive errors) but if the ref didn't bottle it, it might've been different. We did ok at Anfield.
So yes, we got smashed by Chelsea but most of those are individual mistakes. Surely Jose's game plan didn't involve a collective brain fart for the first, nor Smalling turning his back on the ball to let it sit up for Cahill.
It is way too early to say he's done.
And those saying Chelsea last season, let's not forget he was replaced by another highly experienced manager, and they still didn't make it to any European competition. It wasn't all Jose.
Worth noting that some on here were waxing lyrical about how Mourinho had reinvented Fellaini as a disciplined 'midfield destroyer' after the Southampton game earlier this season.
I wasn't one of those might I add, just worth noting given how the opinions of some on here are as inconsistent as the team itself.
My only regret is Bastian not getting any chance to play while Fellaini most of the games.
Don't think that was due to a technical reason.
Wasn't there rumours that the squad thought he was taking the piss last season?
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I've had almost a day to stew on this result now and ultimately I'm feeling that we need to back the manager. He's got every attribute needed to turn this around and he needs patience to do so. Even with huge amounts of cash spent, there's no quick fix so the summer transfers shouldn't be used against him.
I said this last season, there's definitely signs his levels of success are dropping.
He went from winning 6 out of 7 league titles to start his career, to 2 in 6 years recently. Some people put that down to the competition he faced in Barca, but given the state of the top teams in the PL over the last few years, you'd expect the old Jose to have dominated this PL in his 2nd spell at Chelsea, but he managed 1 title in 3 years (I'm counting last season because we know he wasn't getting near a league title). He also fell out with his squad by the end of his stint in his last 2 jobs (Chelsea and Madrid).
It's too early to say he's done, it was only 18 months ago he won the league. But the signs that his most successful days are behind him could be there.
He went from winning 6 out of 7 league titles to start his career, to 2 in 6 years recently. Some people put that down to the competition he faced in Barca, but given the state of the top teams in the PL over the last few years, you'd expect the old Jose to have dominated this PL in his 2nd spell at Chelsea, but he managed 1 title in 3 years (I'm counting last season because we know he wasn't getting near a league title). He also fell out with his squad by the end of his stint in his last 2 jobs (Chelsea and Madrid).
It's too early to say he's done, it was only 18 months ago he won the league. But the signs that his most successful days are behind him could be there.
I kind of think his 'philosophy' in big games is broken and costs him more games / points than it wins.
Just think its foolish to give decent attacking players time on the ball in your half,
trying to nick a goal on the break or from a set piece just seems kind of small time too, i think we should take the game to them, take control of things.
I'd also think it takes a lot of energy to keep pressure on the ball in that set up which we obviously didn't have yesterday.
I dont think hes the issue really though - just some random stuff i wish he'd change (though i guess he probably wont)
Just think its foolish to give decent attacking players time on the ball in your half,
trying to nick a goal on the break or from a set piece just seems kind of small time too, i think we should take the game to them, take control of things.
I'd also think it takes a lot of energy to keep pressure on the ball in that set up which we obviously didn't have yesterday.
I dont think hes the issue really though - just some random stuff i wish he'd change (though i guess he probably wont)
Was actually about to post this article. I think from here on in we will see something different. At least i hope for Mourinho's sake and the teams. Yesterday was a watershed moment for me personally. Will be interesting to see how things pan out.
Just read this! Very nicely written article that raises some interesting points.
no matter what is said on here, the fact is he's not going anywhere for at least 2 seasons.
He's also literally the best we can get...so we should support him.
He's also literally the best we can get...so we should support him.