Look we have to stop ignoring what happened at Chelsea last season. Whatever it is/was it has affected him on a profound level and is damaging his reputation as a top level coach. You dont go to Chelsea, a team he built, and not not how to play them. People will point to the first minute goal as a set back but we came out flat. He should have rested Pogba and the CBs v Fenerbache. He really needs to get out of this slump/metal fog he is in and get us firing on all cylinders.
To the posters saying Mourinho is done
- Thread starter VP89
- Start date
True. Our spine had absolutly no energy, Bailly was toast by the end of the game on thursday. Pogba must have been tired as well (has he missed a game) and Zlatan does not have the energy levels to provide a decent press.
Keeping our best cb on past the 60min mark leading 3-0, was mismanagement. Now we have an injury to deal with too...
Oh come on.
First of all, CBs almost always finish the game, no matter the scoreline. They don't cover as much ground as other players so if you're going to rest anyone you're more likely to rest players higher up the pitch. Which is what Mourinho did by subbing off Pogba and Lingard early.
Not to mention that he did sub off a CB on Thursday. Smalling was subbed off at half-time, presumably because he felt a bit of a niggle.
Yeah interesting read. Most interesting for me is something I thought about before he started....that people were saying he was going to have to tow the line a bit in his behaviour when taking the role of Manchester United manager. I remember thinking at the time that that would be a mistake. That the way he conducts himself, his sometimes childish, if you like, behaviour, arrogance, contradictions etc is who he is, it's the personality of a man who has fire in his belly...yeah sometimes irrational, but deeply focused on the will to succeed.
Bit like when people were saying Rooney should grow up and start controlling his temper on the pitch.....he was best when he was angry....taming him tamed his game....
I agree that CBs don't tire as much as the other outfield players. But in this scenario, Bailly was exhausted, it was visible to me on TV so I'm guessing people attending would have noticed as well, in fact the goal was we conceded was partly a consequence of this (you will notice Bailly struggling to close down the passer and simply lifting a lazy leg in a futile attempt to block the pass).
Even if I concede that Smalling's injury forced his hand an alternative should have been thought out considering the weekend we had to deal with, particularly after witnessing the obvious fatigue Bailly was suffering from.
Klopp came in earlier..
If you read the post match interview, he said they went offensive approach against Chelsea.
There's a bunch of pantsies here who are quick to blame Jose or blame the individual efforts of the players.
After watching Jose's post match conference, all I can say is that Jose will sort things out and we need to get behind him. He understands football and human nature, and will fix the issues with the team sooner rather than later.
The same people who think Jose is no longer a world class manager were calling for Moyes to stay. We are lucky to have Mourinho, and he deserves our full support.
After watching Jose's post match conference, all I can say is that Jose will sort things out and we need to get behind him. He understands football and human nature, and will fix the issues with the team sooner rather than later.
The same people who think Jose is no longer a world class manager were calling for Moyes to stay. We are lucky to have Mourinho, and he deserves our full support.
I'm sorry but
A) our defence is shit - last season we had the best defence in the league.
B) it's the players not the manager - well we've spent 150 million plus (by far the most in the league) and got a superstar on a free and we don't look any better. That kind of spending HAS to bring an improvement.
De Gea, Shaw, Bailly, Pogba, Herrera, Martial, Mkhitaryan, Rashford and Ibrahimovic are players every team in the league would be happy to have. The quality is there.
It's collectively that we are struggling; no real partnerships, no real teamwork nor cohesion. The inverse is true of teams like Spurs and Liverpool who are well drilled and trained.
Mourinho deserves time and his potential is obvious and so on but if he can't get that group into shape by the end of the year then he's not doing his job well.
We have quality players but we are to predictable and easy to defend. Our Wingers don't create much threat and our fullbacks rarely cause a problem either going forward. Shaw did at the start of the season before getting injured and that is when we where playing ok football. We need our full backs to do their job both sides of the pitch along with our wingers (mhiki needs to nail this role) so the midfield is not congested and we will create chances.
We did not have the best defence in the league, we just defender with entire team in most our games and kept the ball fo 70% of the game to bore them to death.
Funny how when we had managers you did not hate you were willing to give them time, even Moyes, but when it is Mourinho that you absolutely despise, he has to make immediate impact. You were excusing van Gaal because the league was impossibly strong, doesn't it work anymore?
It is NOT treason to criticize your manager FFS!!! You know, we used to laugh at Rawk for this shit. You know, how deluded they are that they won’t allow their players to be criticized.
This season a lot of us are being very RAWKish in their attempt to defend Mourinho. They refuse to criticize Mourinho when he fecks up, they want us all to sit here and ignore last year’s meltdown, and they blame the players, the pitch, Conte’s celebration, LVG and everything else just to divert attention from Mourinho.
Let’s not go full RAWK gentlemen. Mourinho is human, he can fail. This bad start is his responsibility as a coach.
This season a lot of us are being very RAWKish in their attempt to defend Mourinho. They refuse to criticize Mourinho when he fecks up, they want us all to sit here and ignore last year’s meltdown, and they blame the players, the pitch, Conte’s celebration, LVG and everything else just to divert attention from Mourinho.
Let’s not go full RAWK gentlemen. Mourinho is human, he can fail. This bad start is his responsibility as a coach.
No, no we literally had the best defence in the league. That's a fact regardless of how we played.
We've conceded over a third of our goals compared to what we did last year after nine games. Currently in the top ten we have the least goals scored.
Don't try and make me look like a hypocrite. I have backed managers yes, but while I was willing to accept Mourinho, he has done absolutely nothing to convince me he has a plan here.
Early days Twig Jose needs another couple of summer windows to get a team that can compete. He has signed well in Pogba and Bailly imo for the future and Zlatan is a step up on anything we have. We are still lacking in major positions just now and that's not Jose fault I have complete faith in him.
He's been here for three months. You were strong supporter of Moyes and LvG after that period despite them showing even less, I guess it's because you weren't this biased against them.
He brought four first team players who were signed for massive money! That's almost half the outfield playing staff and the three that have played the most are straight through the spine.we can't need more players sjrely.
Having the fewest goals conceded as a result of a complete lack of attacking intent doesn't necessarily equate to having the best defence. That stat isn't worth much if it all goes to hell the moment you try and step forward a bit in search of a goal.
If I were a united fan, I'd be mostly concerned with how there is very little on the pitch to put your faith in.
When Benitez, Rodgers, Klopp and even Kenny came in during their first season, there was a clear project being implemented. Even though results weren't there, there was something being worked on that had clear potential and worth waiting on to see realised.
Hodgson never had that and lost the fans a lot quicker as a result (besides being a twat). Moyes never had it either and should have lost the fans quicker than he did. Van Gaal did, even though he lost it the next season.
So far, no real evidence of it under Mourinho either. I don't think anyone even knows how he wants you to play.
Up until the Chelsea game only Spurs had conceded less goals than us. I don't think all goes to hell when we go out to attack - it was just a freak day in that regard. The Chelsea game can't be used as a standalone example.
Mourinho has his plan in place - the media/pundits and any supporters for that matter are daft if they think they'd suddenly see it after 9 league games.
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Not expecting it to be perfect after 9 games. Some evidence of it though.
It's nonsense to say he's done and anyway who would we replace him with? (oh and please don't say Giggs, because you might as well say Moyes)
Maybe give them more than 2 months to integrate into the team and make an impact? Bailly has already been our best defender, Pogba has shown glimpses of quality and will improve (still very young), Mkhitaryan has not even played a full game because he hasn't been fit.
All of a sudden when it's Mourinho you want immediate results while when Moyes and Van Gaal did exactly the same it was 'give them time', 'who cares about Guardiola and Klopp when we have Moyes', 'the league is way too strong to expect wins' etc.
If we are still here at the end of season and then do not improve next season, we can have this conversation. At this point you basically write Mourinho off because you despise him.
How though? If you took Chelsea's example, Conte only just adjusted to a new 3-5-2 system 2 games ago.
There will always be more of a limelight on the plan with our club, with terribly misleading headlines like "Jose doesn't know his first XI". Why should he? He's only played 9 games where he'd field his full team and struggled with losing Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan through injury at different periods. Obviously he'l tweak his team to adjust to bigger games, but that doesn't mean he "doesn't know his first XI" or doesn't have a plan.
He has his plan of how he wants Manchester United to look, it will just take more than 9 league games to show it, preferrably with a full team at hand.
I didn't say our defence was shit, I said our defenders are shit. So to compensate, we fixate on maintaining possessions, or parking the bus (against top teams).
This then affects the whole balance of the team.
Against lesser teams where we are not as worried about their attackers, we play some pretty good stuff.
As for the purchases, Baily is a class above our existing defenders. Zlatan (free) is our top scorer, Pogba has been too hot and cold (and clearly over priced) but clearly an improvement to our midfield. The only questionable buy is Mkhitaryan but he hasn't had many minutes.
Don't think you can argue much against his buys.
I said defenders (with Shaw and Baily getting a pass). I would be surprised any of the other contenders would want anyone apart from perhaps Smalling.
I have enjoyed some matches this season which is a massive improvement over the last 3. Sure, it's not perfect but there's no way Mourinho is done. You can see the improvements against the lesser team, he just needs to work out how to play better against other contenders.
Why on earth would I say who cares about Guardiola and Klopp because I want Moyes? They weren't even in the league
What I said about Mourinho is that he will destroy Chelsea in three years. I was right.I admit I don't like Mourinho. Like Sir Bobby and others at the club I had doubts over whether he was the right type of person to take over Manchester United. But the fact is we are currently looking worse than last season despite record money spent.
Also can't argue much against his buys? One of his main signings was a 35 year old striker who is missing more chances than anyone else! Another one has seemingly disappeared off the shape of the Earth. And the world record signing doesn't seem to have a position!
What is his plan? How does he want you to play? What is the gameplan?
I am not talking about knowing his first XI - Just would expect to see some evidence of progressive tactical imprint on this side, even if results aren't really bearing it out. So far, other than a fierce dedication to defence against the top teams, it looks awfully generic.
Last year was LVG's second season.Why on earth would I say who cares about Guardiola and Klopp because I want Moyes? They weren't even in the league
I admit I don't like Mourinho. Like Sir Bobby and others at the club I had doubts over whether he was the right type of person to take over Manchester United. But the fact is we are currently looking worse than last season despite record money spent.
In his first season, he had 14 points from 9 games too (3W 4D). Chelsea at home was the only game against a contender.
Did you really suggest LVG was done back then?
You can see the plan in the Bournemouth/West Ham/Hull/Stoke games where he requires a "vertical up" approach, in his own words. That is to say, not being afraid to attack through quicker mediums rather than passing the ball along the floor. He obviously prefers a mixed style of lofting it to a target man and relying on the pace/quick feet of his wider players to unlock a defence. The Hull match is an example of him adjusting the plan somewhat to unlock stubborn teams by bringing quicker players on (Rashford) and moving the ball around at greater tempo (something LVG nor Moyes ever did).
He doesn't believe in pressing in all areas of the pitch and rather prefers to press high and keep it there (a key reason why he took Mkhitaryan off at half time vs City because he just wasn't doing it without the ball, along with being poor on the ball of course). In the bigger games where the opposition has greater momentum on their side, he aims to disrupt play first and build from a solid foundation. His Plan A in bigger games away is to counter attack, his plan B is to commit more men further forward. We saw this plan B against Chelsea and it failed, but because of silly individual errors rather than the plan itself. We actually had more possession and about as many shots on target as they did.
As such I don't think its fair to blame Mourinho and say he doesn't even have a plan. As mentioned in the OP, I think his only flaw in the Chelsea game was starting Fellaini (who actually had a good game vs Liverpool so you can see the logic to an extent).
I don't think he's done but he's certainly in a bad place. The confidence bordering on arrogance he used to show is long gone and it shows in the football he has us playing.
Going back to that Liverpool game, it can't be encouraging for our players to be told that we aren't as good as Liverpool and he wants them to waste time from the 1st minute. That the full backs can't be ahead of the ball, no playing it out from the back and don't get in their box unless it's for a set piece.
We have some excellent players, who have played under the best managers. So being set up like that shows our current manager has no faith in them which prob why so many of our players like they don't want to play for him.
Going back to that Liverpool game, it can't be encouraging for our players to be told that we aren't as good as Liverpool and he wants them to waste time from the 1st minute. That the full backs can't be ahead of the ball, no playing it out from the back and don't get in their box unless it's for a set piece.
We have some excellent players, who have played under the best managers. So being set up like that shows our current manager has no faith in them which prob why so many of our players like they don't want to play for him.
He'd inherited a worse side and had ridiculous injury problems. Completely different.
I'm not having anyone saying it's too early to criticise as he needs time to build his team and buy more players... this IS his team. The club supported him to the hilt in the summer window. Mourinho said he needed 4 players of a particular profile and he got exactly what he wanted.
If he suddenly needs more time to buy other players and build a different team, it is because he has misjudged. Therefore he deserves criticism.
If he suddenly needs more time to buy other players and build a different team, it is because he has misjudged. Therefore he deserves criticism.
There's more to building a team than buying players. The time needed is to get them playing the way he wants and stamp his authority on the team. I personally think this will take even longer than usual because he has taken over a team that has spent the last two years playing a very different style of football than what he would want. People expecting instant success just because he's spent money might as well play football on paper.
Who said he needs more time to buy more players? You do know the team doesn't suddenly click from the outset, regardless of the profiles you buy right?
Zlatan scored 4 in 9 games.
That's more than anyone else in the first 9 games of the season in both of LVG's seasons (didn't bother looking at Moyes).
And he's free.
Pogba was never worth his price tag but surely he's an improvement to what we have?
And yes, Mkhitaryan is a strange one but I doubt that's down to only Jose.
It's not about expecting instant success but Mourinho does not deserve a free ride from criticism. So far the team haven't played with any consistency... he doesn't appear to know what his best team is and tactically, we're not exactly seeing a clear plan. The performance so far has not been good enough and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out.
I did not say that I expected the team to click straight away. We should be doing better than we are though and it's fair to point that out. Mourinho bought 4 players he said would bring balance to the squad and give us the lift we need in quality. So far we don't look very balanced at all and he hasn't exactly shown that he knows how they should be playing or what our best team is.
I think he should be given lots of time... but that doesn't mean we should accept the team's performance when it has been below par.
There is little wrong with what you said above, my post was more about what you said here:
^I don't think anyone is suggesting he wants to buy a different side.
He won the league with Chelsea, had a bad final season and was rightly dismissed when they were doing very badly. He left the team in a decent shape, as evidenced by exactly the same squad doing reasonably well this season under new manager.Why on earth would I say who cares about Guardiola and Klopp because I want Moyes? They weren't even in the league
I admit I don't like Mourinho. Like Sir Bobby and others at the club I had doubts over whether he was the right type of person to take over Manchester United. But the fact is we are currently looking worse than last season despite record money spent.
We are not looking worse than last season really. Performances have been similar, we've played better football at times, results have been shite and they were also shite last season. If it was Moyes and not Mourinho I'm 100% positive you'd be backing him.
Getting a team to play with consistency is one of the hardest thing to achieve and you expect him to do it in his first 10 odd games with the club. If you don't expect instant success then you have to accept inconsistency.
Well, I see a post on this very page suggesting he needs more transfer windows to build 'his side'... #336.
My issue is more... how does he exactly expect to gain any consistency when he is chopping and changing so much from one game to the next?! Against Liverpool, we have two midfielders holding (Fellaini, Herrera) and Pogba at 10. Against Chelsea we suddenly have Fellaini at 10 and Herrera holding with Pogba more of a box to box? I'm not sure how we expect to gain any consistency when team selection has been so inconsistent...
What I would like to see is a clear plan of how he wants this team to play and a clear idea of who are the best personnel in the current squad to achieve that. Allow the players a chance to gel and perform more consistently. I feel like all of the changes from one game to the next is just not allowing us to do that.