Should Jose suffer the same fate....

Should Jose suffer the same fate if we fail to qualify for the CL ?


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el3mel

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Yep you saved me a post about under SAF as well there were no real standouts apart from Keith Gillespie but he sold him as part of the Andy cole deal iir
Imagine if something happened these days. People will call for the manager to be hanged.
 

Dobbs

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It'd be a disaster to sack Mourinho at this stage. What would it say about us as a club.
 

MoskvaRed

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Hang on did we cut LVG slack last year when we were in the CL and EL? No. Don't get sucked into these lame excuses.

We have on the whole been shite, he had the squad to cope and hasn't used it, hence why we looked fecked now.

It's slightly better than last year, though just as disappointing taken into consideration the manager we got and the players we bought.
We were competing for 4th against City last year who went all the way to CL SF, long after our meek surrender to Liverpool in the EL. This year our two rivals (City and Liverpool) have either been knocked out weeks ago or not involved full stop. It is directly relevant to our chances of top 4 this year although don't get the idea I am giving Mourinho a free pass and would be happy with same again next year. Better than Van Gaal's tedium is not the bar here, just as being better than the comically inept Moyes was not enough to save Van Gaal.
 

SammyUnited_83

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The Adidas deal is based on the added exposure of the CL, not an analysis of the managers performance.

To suggest that all you need to see to be able to judge and compare two different managers is their teams position in the league is ridiculous.
It's one of the barometers though, surely?

If we don't get in the CL then he has failed, no matter how it's carved up, injuries, games, missed chances etc etc.
 

Randall Flagg

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It's one of the barometers though, surely?

If we don't get in the CL then he has failed, no matter how it's carved up, injuries, games, missed chances etc etc.
It absolutely is, and if he fails to achieve it, the season should be looked on as a huge disappointment

But I agree that we cannot keep sacking managers. Just give him what he wants in the summer. Although I'm never one for massive clearouts and huge squad investment. I think that's what will happen in the summer

But the pressure he will be under next season to be successful will be enourmous. If he fails next season, then it's a question to ask
 

Oscie

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I don't think Van Gaal lost his job solely because he missed out on the CL. If fans were by and large satisfied with the direction the club was going in and the football it played under him I think he'd still be here now. Missing out on the CL has to be combined with a deep-rooted dissatisfaction at the direction of the club that, for all the post-match moaning, I don't think exists.
 

Nytram Shakes

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I personly think Mourinho has done a worse job then LVG.

Both had massive investment in their 1st season, both have had huge injury crisises, both have failed to get the best out of the star players, both played utterly dreadful football. I'd also say i think LVG deleveloped young players and did act like such a tit off the field

still don't want Mourinho sacked, sacking another manager and having another change of direction is not the way to go, but does Mourinho desrve the sak if he doesnt get top 4, probably, he's done a terrible job.
 

MikeUpNorth

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I think Jose is doing relatively well in rebuilding the squad and our football. In my opinion, his summer business was very good - all his signings were good buys. If we can have another window where we add four players who make proper contributions to our side, we'll be in good shape next year.

I'm optimistic for the first time since Fergie left.
 

SammyUnited_83

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It absolutely is, and if he fails to achieve it, the season should be looked on as a huge disappointment

But I agree that we cannot keep sacking managers. Just give him what he wants in the summer. Although I'm never one for massive clearouts and huge squad investment. I think that's what will happen in the summer

But the pressure he will be under next season to be successful will be enourmous. If he fails next season, then it's a question to ask
I don't want the guy sacked BTW.

Just think that this season is a huge failure (so far) and the fact the football has been slightly better masks it - the results on the other hand have been cack.

Let's see how the season ends he / we can still turn it around. Though it's quite frightening to think that last year could end up being better, on paper, than this.
 

Womp

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Yeah can't wait to see what he does with a team of his choosing, unlike this year when he only signed four first team players spending more than any other manager in the world.
If you're going to wum at least wum with facts, Pep spent more.
 

Rado_N

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It's one of the barometers though, surely?

If we don't get in the CL then he has failed, no matter how it's carved up, injuries, games, missed chances etc etc.
But you have to look at cause rather than outcome. Is he the reason we've not done better, or are we where we are in spite of his good work?

I mean, if Rooney doesn't have a brain fart and give away that freekick yesterday we're 3rd right now and suddenly Mourinho's not being questioned.

I'm not suggesting the season has been great, of course it hasn't, but I don't see the manager as being our issue this time unlike it was with the last two.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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He should get a chance to run down his three year contract based on our current predicament. We don't have a squad rich with talent in order to start appointing handlers of big personalities instead of proper managers and still manage to remain relevant in the big stage. Furthermore, it's the club's policy to give the man at the helm complete freedom of movement in the transfer market (ins and outs) and not interfere at all with the way he handles the squad. So, in order to make things work, we need a sense of stability and we also need someone who will be able to handle the pressure of one of the toughest managerial jobs in all sports. Not all managers have the same background and it was much easier to render both Moyes and LvG expendable with the former being a nonsensical appointment based on sentimentality more than anything else and the latter being close to retirement due to his age. Mourinho still has pulling power in the market and him being so successful over the years makes the call for his head more difficult. As a club that has always believed that all the first team issues should be taken care of by the manager alone, it might send the wrong message to all directions: to future quality candidates (like Poch) who will take the job thinking that they'll get at least a second season and, of course, to our current squad players, a mix of aged stars/promising talents/average to simply good players, who may get the idea that the manager will always be the one who will take the fall. You might get away with this, if you're RM and your primadonnas can wave their manager away and then go on to win the CL or if you're Chelsea where the players already knew that they could win the PL title with ease but it's a whole different thing when you're stuck in mediocrity, results wise.


This doesn't mean that he's done a stellar job this season. Yes, the football has been improved when you compare it to last season's bore fests but, then again, last season was so bad that this improvement doesn't really say that much. Mourinho's yet to instill a distinct identity on this side. His signature lightning quick transitions and the aggressive off the ball movement in the attacking half are nowhere to be seen. He claims his intention at OT is to create a truly dominant side and he blames our poor conversion rate for our troubles, which is true but only to a certain extend, but when he faces teams that want (or have no problem) to take the initiative on the ball he always sets us up to defend deep and exploit open spaces on the counter. Under LvG it was easy to draw the conclusion that he utterly failed to build a good possession based side, this time around i can't make up my mind about what we're really trying to achieve as a team.

My take on the matter is that Jose's going through a transitional period in his career and he's trying to adjust himself in an ever-evolving football world in order to remain at the very top. There are many aspects of the modern game, like high pressing and very aggressive defending/managers focusing all the more on the game with the ball, which nowadays contradict Mourinho's basic principles. He's somewhat going against the wind tactically but he's always found a way to win things and major trophies wherever he's worked at. In that sense, i'd still trust him and give him time to turn things around instead of going for the next flavor of the month manager.
 

sugar_kane

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My take on the matter is that Jose's going through a transitional period in his career and he's trying to adjust himself in an ever-evolving football world in order to remain at the very top. There are many aspects of the modern game, like high pressing and very aggressive defending/managers focusing all the more on the game with the ball, which nowadays contradict Mourinho's basic principles. He's somewhat going against the wind tactically but he's always found a way to win things and major trophies wherever he's worked at. In that sense, i'd still trust him and give him time to turn things around instead of going for the next flavor of the month manager.
and let's not forget, he won the league two years ago. This isn't Moyes (never won anything) or Van Gaal (never won the league in England) we're talking about.

English football is going through a period of significant adjustment so who better to have at the helm than the greatest pragmatist of the ten years.
 

wolvored

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He will be given at least another season, and rightly so. He needs to change in one area and prioritise players so the key players get a rest once in a while, not play them until they are ready to drop. This should change when he gets better players in, just hope Mourinho realises it.
Personally I would allow 3 seasons, as we were playing better football when we had virtually a full team to pick from. It was just the finishing, and now the Martial/Rashford conundrum shows they cant deliver regularly, (you can come up with any reason why), then with a couple of proven goalscorers this could make the difference.
If we finished top 2/3/4 next season only, this is still an improvement/(constant if we finish top 4 this). This could see us winning the league the year after. Mourinho has done something this season the previous managers, as far as i can recall, have not done, and that is win a trophy in his first season. This should not be ignored.

I dont think you can point to how much money is being spent either, as most above average players are now quoted at £30-50 million, and good players £50-70 million, so all top players are now going to cost £70 million+
 

RedPed

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We can't be sacking managers every 12-18 months. I don't care if we get top 4 or win the league every year. I'm realistic enough to accept that it's not our divine right to win everything and the top four has now expanded to a top six so theoretically two top clubs are going to be having a 'crisis' every season now. I just want to be looking forward to our games again win, lose or draw for now.

LVG got the sack because the football was just so crap! That's what Jose needs to focus on now. Clear out the deadwood, bring in some quality, get us playing exciting, attacking football again and start converting more draws into wins. But he needs time to do it. If he won, say two titles, got to a couple of CL finals (winning one possibly) and the odd smattering of domestic trophies along the way in say the next 5 or 6 years, I'd be happy with that.
 

wolvored

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It absolutely is, and if he fails to achieve it, the season should be looked on as a huge disappointment

But I agree that we cannot keep sacking managers. Just give him what he wants in the summer. Although I'm never one for massive clearouts and huge squad investment. I think that's what will happen in the summer

But the pressure he will be under next season to be successful will be enourmous. If he fails next season, then it's a question to ask
I agree with you there, but in this one instance I think it will be neccessary. We are looking, if things go wrong in the next half a dozen games, at turning into Liverpool of the 90's, and whether we qualify or not for CL it still needs doing.
 

Morpheus 7

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He's won us a trophy and has a reasonable chance of winning the EL. It's not where we want to be but we are going in the right direction. United's problem's run deep from the last two managers and needs time to fix. Getting rid of managers is not going to bring stability. He's brought in good players and is shipping out ones that don't suit, I think he'll continue this in the summer. He's also improved players like Herrera and Rojo and made us difficult to beat. We have performed better overall, yes yesterday was crap but that hasn't been a reflection of the seasons performances. We have drawn too much at home and lack a cutting edge in front of goal. It's been mostly us creating an absurd amount of chances and not finishing teams off, yesterday we were just flat and had none of this. We need to address a few issues but getting rid of Jose isn't one of them.

It's frustrating but people need to calm down. Football fans are reactionary but the ones in here wanting is to get rid of Jose are wrong in my opinion. He's tactically the best manager in the league, one of the best in Europe. Give him time and he'll bring us big success.
 

Jetrooooo

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It's ridiculous really. We were battling this season on all 4 fronts. We made some great singings after all the dross LVG bought(Falcao, Di Maria, Depay, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Darmian). We won a throphy and have all the chance for a spot in the CL. Then our key-signings get injured and it's a blessing in disguise? Turned out it obvious wasn't and we're playing shit without them for 1 game and we want Mourinho sacked. Get a grip guys. We're improving and next season will be the same. After that or maybe another season we can talk about this stuff but for now he is still the best bet.

Which coach could come in this summer and be a sure bet to win the title. No-one.
 
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shaky

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Moyes got sacked a year into the job after it was blindly obvious that he was completely out of his depth with a team as big as Utd. Van Gaal did ok in his first year, so reasonably enough, you expected him to build on that. We actually regressed in his second season, with the style of football and results. Mourinho said when he took over that he'd need time to sort out the squad and de-train them in the LVG philosophy that they were used to, and true enough, we dropped 21 points in our first 14 games. Since then, we've played 20 games and only dropped 16 points. Even including all of the frustrating draws we've had recently, we are still averaging 2.2 points per game in that period, which is title-challenging form over a whole season.

The improvements are clearly there. Perrhaps we haven't improved as dramatically as everybody would have liked, but it's still improvement. You don't sack a manager who has been showing clear progress in his first season. I'd be much more concerned if our season had been like City's, starting really quickly, then dropping off and showing no signs of regaining the early season form. As it is, we are moving in the right direction. I expect us to keep moving in this direction next season and it would be foolish to consider the manager's position until we reach a point where we stop progressing.
 

SammyUnited_83

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But you have to look at cause rather than outcome. Is he the reason we've not done better, or are we where we are in spite of his good work?

I mean, if Rooney doesn't have a brain fart and give away that freekick yesterday we're 3rd right now and suddenly Mourinho's not being questioned.

I'm not suggesting the season has been great, of course it hasn't, but I don't see the manager as being our issue this time unlike it was with the last two.
Fair enough.

Perhaps I've just still got a disappointment hangover from yesterday.
 

Pearson

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I personly think Mourinho has done a worse job then LVG.

Both had massive investment in their 1st season, both have had huge injury crisises, both have failed to get the best out of the star players, both played utterly dreadful football. I'd also say i think LVG deleveloped young players and did act like such a tit off the field

still don't want Mourinho sacked, sacking another manager and having another change of direction is not the way to go, but does Mourinho desrve the sak if he doesnt get top 4, probably, he's done a terrible job.
In terms of the position in the League table, it does not change that much. When it comes to performance, yeah, Jose might be slightly better than LVG. Given the quality player he added to the squad, that is not even a credit.

I personally like to take last season as a transition. As anyone who knows a bit of LVG's career and football style, last season was an absolute incident. His failure to buy quality players costs his job, especially Depay because his tactics relies heavily on the wingers who can break defenders like Mathial. That aside, I think last season witnessed a maturing team although there would be still a lot work to do to bring United back where it ought to be.

He can give chance to young players, which is one of the defining features of United's DNA. Plus, LVG is not a manager who likes to build his team with big-name players. At least not like Jose who like to spend a lot in market. When it comes to individual player's performance, only Rojo improves a little bit this season. Other players? They all underachieve, IMP. Under LVG, Smalling, Blind, Mathial, Rashford, DDG, even Fellani were better than they are now.

When it comes to tactics, I do not get those pundits who think Jose is the best to win matches. Fecking hell. I can see a clear-cut tactics operating in that squad last year. It did not work very well because of obvious weakness in that squad such as in the position of holding midfield, winger and center strike.

It is true, buying right players is a very important part of a manager's job. Maybe I should not say much to defend LVG given some of games last season were really torturing to watch for United fans who are used to watch SAF's United. That being said, let's not forget the cold fact that we are building a team. We cannot expect any manager in this world to do United job without making any mistake.

when interviewed Last May, when the rumor of replaying LVG with Jose was circulating around every corner, SAF showed his support of LVG by saying something like: it is worth waiting and being patient when a club like Manchester United with hundreds years of history is experiencing a bad spell of three or five years. LVG's main setbacks was injury.

SAF knows what it means by building a team. Think about the bad time from 2004 to 2006, even for SAF, it takes three years to be back to the top. Building a team after the retirement of SAF can be everything but being easier than SAF did himself.

History is made and LVG is gone, it cannot be reversed. The club board made their choice which, I presume was made on a commercial basis. He is not a complete mess.

Nevertheless, the reason I am writing this is just because I really do not enjoy those whining words from Jose and I like LVG because he is a real honest man. And I think if given enough time, LVG could really play beautiful games, like those beautiful games we were used to watch under SAF. on the other hand, if Jose is given enough time, he might as well build a successful team which can win a lot of games in an ugly fashion.

To sum up, it is probably not a good idea to sack Jose. At this point, I cannot allow myself to ask too much when it comes to the way we are supposed to play football. Result is only thing we should care for this former giant club which is on the brink of declining.
 
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Lentwood

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I don't believe that we sacked LvG because we didn't get top 4. I think we sacked LvG because there had been no obvious improvement in two season of his being in charge, he was only ever going to stay for one more season anyway and Jose was available

Similarly, I dont believe Moyes was sacked because we didn't get top 4. I think Moyes had shown himself to be nowhere near up to the job and the writing was on the wall for him anyway. The fact that we sacked him after not reaching top 4 was likely because we could do it on the cheap due to a clause inserted into his contract

Point is, I doubt its as black/white as top 4 = safe no top 4 = sacked for Jose
 

southlegend

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But you have to look at cause rather than outcome. Is he the reason we've not done better, or are we where we are in spite of his good work?

I mean, if Rooney doesn't have a brain fart and give away that freekick yesterday we're 3rd right now and suddenly Mourinho's not being questioned.

I'm not suggesting the season has been great, of course it hasn't, but I don't see the manager as being our issue this time unlike it was with the last two.
I thought I was going crazy reading this thread until I saw your post!

We would've been a point clear in 3rd and with our next game being against a sh*te Arsenal side who I would say we have a really good chance of taking all 3 points.

Mourinho has proven time again that he knows how to instruct a team to see a game out. We can't blame him for tired legs and a lack of composure from our captain...
 

Bwuk

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No. He needs the summer to rebuild the squad.

If we got another manager in it'd be another year where people get chances. For the likes of Jones, Smalling, Shaw etc they've had there chances and times up, they need to be moved on.
 

OnlyTwoDaSilvas

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No.

I would doubt Mourinho has been given the the same objective David Moyes had.

David Moyes had to keep a team that comfortably won the league within the top 4 as a minimum. He failed miserably and had to go. LvG had to clean up the Moyes mess whilst getting us back in to the Champions League, and then back in to title challengers. Ultimately, he just made an even bigger mess, and I believe there was more to his dismissal than not getting top 4. I don't believe that Mourinho has been given the same 1-season goal of "get in the top 4, or else". The job is now bigger and harder than the one David Moyes took, partly because of David Moyes.

We're also now in a position where we have the best manager available and genuinely one of the best managers in the game. That was nowhere close to being true over the last 3 seasons. Unless something goes catastrophically wrong, similar to Chelsea last season where the working relationship appears to be beyond repair, then I don't see Mourinho getting binned this summer or even next.
 

JohnnyKills

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It all depends on whether he can actually turn things round and getting us challenging for the PL and CL again. If he can't do that, better that we get rid of him now.

There's no point giving someone time just for the sake of giving someone time. If we go down that route we're going to prolong the post-Ferguson slump and risk doing a Liverpool.

Personally I think we've seen enough good things so far this season to warrant giving him a second one. The performance against Chelsea was the best we've played since Fergie left, and he's really stablised the back four as well. He's handled the Rooney situation well, three of his four signings have been good (I'd put only Mkhi in the 'meh' category) and the unbeaten run is a great achievement, no matter which way you look at it.

On the flipside, his lack of rotation has been bone-headed at times - he should definitely have played kids in the league cup and kept Schneiderlin at least until the summer - so the fact that so many players are breaking down now is on him. And he seems to have no plan B when playing against stubborn teams at home, apart from to lump it forward to Fellaini.

So overall the ledger comes out on the positive side, but only just. Let's see what he does in the summer. If it's still crap at Christmas, we can start making other plans.
 

friend

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Some poor finishing away from finishing comfortably in the top 4 (can one really blame Mourinho because players like Zlatan missed some very good chances in a few games? Apparently you can actually...)
League cup winners
Europa League semi finalists currently
FA Cup quarter finals - went out mainly due to playing with 10 men against the best team in the country on their ground
Defensive record as good as last year (or better)
Attacking record better than last year (granted, it still needs improvement)

LVG got sacked because after doing pretty decently in his first season, there was a clear decline the next season rather than progress. And not just in terms of league position, rather how it was obvious that there had to be a massive change at the club (hint: the manager) for it to ever look like getting back to towards challenging for the title.

If the same scenario occurs next season under Mourinho, he will be sacked then as well, and rightfully so. But until then, let's be happy that we are once again on an upward trajectory and have not gone backwards (or even stalled) from last season. I can understand people not wanting Mourinho because of certain characteristics (like not giving untested youth too much of a chance, his mainly defensive tactics in big away games, calling players out in the media, etc.) but let's not use those underlying reasons to pretend that his performance at the club has been so bad that he deserves to be sacked or be compared to LVG's second season. (Needs to improve next season? Absolutely. Is it likely? The signs are very positive IMO.)
 

Raoul

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Absolutely not. At some point people will understand that constant swapping managers in and out is more detrimental to our success than allowing them a few years to enact their objectives.
 

Skills

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It absolutely is, and if he fails to achieve it, the season should be looked on as a huge disappointment

But I agree that we cannot keep sacking managers. Just give him what he wants in the summer. Although I'm never one for massive clearouts and huge squad investment. I think that's what will happen in the summer

But the pressure he will be under next season to be successful will be enourmous. If he fails next season, then it's a question to ask
If he failed next season, I reckon he'll blow everything up (figuratively) on the way out, like a spoilt child. If he fails, usually the state he leaves everything in means that there isnt really a question to ask.
 

Red_Aaron

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i think he's doing a good job in the main, he'll be as disappointed as any of us with our league position but he's had quite a lot to do in year one.

the rooney issue is finally sorted, many of us feared he'd be another ever present this year but jose put the bullet in him pretty quickly to be fair and with the minimum of fuss too. he's shipped out a good chunk of the dross fetching fees that were mind-blowing by our usual selling standards!
he's picked up a trophy with a chance of adding another. He's also played rashford a lot which we all wanted to happen

some of his comments have been a little odd and off the mark for me but i feel he's purposefully challenging the mentality of the squad after showing themselves to be soft-bellied since saf, its vital the board backs him if they want to return the winning mentality i feel even if he's occasionally off target.

I'm not sure his constant moaning about fatigue is necessary atm it may well be true that the squad is knackered but moaning about it only plants the idea in the players' heads, it doesn't change the fact we've another game in a few days time and i don't want to see us limp into the potential final only to see it blow up in our faces with everyone holding up the tired excuse
 

stu_1992

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Not a hope. It may be a valid question if the circumstances are the same next, but not now. We have evolved as a team and a lot of the problems that we have appear related to personnel at this point. I think there's a sense that he recognizes this and will address it in the summer.
 

JustAFan

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Moyes was fired in large part because he lost the team. I think the LvG despite the FA Cup win had also begun to lose the squad.

So I think Jose CL or not gets another year because I don't think the squad has been lost.
 

Minkaro

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I don't think he'll be sacked at the end of this season no matter what happens, and nor do I think he should be. I think at the end of next season, if we haven't qualified for the Champion's League, he'll be in trouble, but not this.
 
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