Should Jose suffer the same fate....

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Did Chelsea have a better season than us in 2012?

Yes they did imo. They had a more successful season. They weren't better, but they won the ultimate prize in club football and achieved everything we achieved(qualifying for the CL).

Would you rather have our season than theirs?(even ignoring the obvious heartache of the end).

I'd rather win the UCL than finish 2nd in the league.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Did Chelsea have a better season than us in 2012?

Yes! Chelsea won CL and FA cup, while we had only the community shield to polish

 

[Billy Blaggs]

Who exactly have you faced on this course to winning 2 trophies? You faced no one relevant in the Mickey Mouse cup (really an irrelevant trophy that none of the big clubs prioritize) and got outplayed vs Southampton in the final, only to be rescued by Ibrahimovic.

You luckily avoided all of the few decent teams in the Europa league and got handed easy back to back draws but still managed to make hard work of Anderlecht.

You literally haven't faced anybody decent in both competitions!

And Spurs and arguably City have had better seasons than United. The former is not even arguable and at least the latter's football is more bearable than yours.

At least some honest United fans see this season for what it is but some others are seemingly in denial.

You don't pick who you play.
And if you can't see the difference in is compared to last season then your either blind, don't watch or games, in denial or a wind up.
Add to that Jose was your manager that put you on the league champions map.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Yes! Chelsea won CL and FA cup, while we had only the community shield to polish

I forgot they won the FA Cup too.

Clearly the more successful season then to me.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I have always thought the league was the most important thing and the rest for extra. I think the best measure of a club is what they are able to do over a full league season. So for that reason I think Spurs are having a better season.

 

[AN17]

I have always thought the league was the most important thing and the rest for extra. I think the best measure of a club is what they are able to do over a full league season. So for that reason I think Spurs are having a better season.

Yes, with nothing to show for it though.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I have always thought the league was the most important thing and the rest for extra. I think the best measure of a club is what they are able to do over a full league season. So for that reason I think Spurs are having a better season.

The most prestigious tournament should be the most important. Being the best of the best in europe is more prestigious than being the best in a local league.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

The most prestigious tournament should be the most important. Being the best of the best in europe is more prestigious than being the best in a local league.

You get a much better view of a team's quality over a league season than you do over a cup competition regardless of the cup competition.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

You get a much better view of a team's quality over a league season than you do over a cup competition regardless of the cup competition.

A league tends to show your consistency and squad depth while a knockout tournament reflects more of the quality of your starting XI.

You can win a league by beating the crap out of the lower teams but losing to the top teams while in a tournament you have to beat everyone you face.

 

[Insanity]

I have always thought the league was the most important thing and the rest for extra. I think the best measure of a club is what they are able to do over a full league season. So for that reason I think Spurs are having a better season.

Absolutely. The general point of view of United fans in this regards has changed since we have become shit (Especially since it become apparent that Jose is going to deliver a pretty mediocre league campaign), otherwise we always put a 38 games league season on a higher pedestal and considered it a barometer of quality. I swear the fans used to scorn at CL winners if they didn't win the league, because how can you be called "Champions of Europe" if you are not even champions in your domestic league.

Don't think anyone thought that Chelsea had a great season when the won the CL but only finished 6th in the league.

Wonder what the thoughts were last season on prioritizing Europa before the league when Klopp decided to put all the eggs in the that basket. And they had a much worse squad and team than we have now. Last seasons best player from Italy and Germany are still available for us, and so is a defender who is 5 times the player John Stones is.

 

[hellohello]

Winning trophies is a good thing obviously. But as a Spurs fan I think we have been a better team than United this season, and therefore had a better season.

The league cup is a competition few people care much about unless they somehow find themselves in the semi final. And the EL is a competition without Europe's elite. If Barcelona and Arhletico Madrid win nothing this season, have you been more sucessfull than them too?

This sudden obsession that silverware, regardless of shape or form is infinitely more valuable than anything else is a strange one for me.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Winning trophies is a good thing obviously. But as a Spurs fan I think we have been a better team than United this season, and therefore had a better season.

The league cup is a competition few people care much about unless they somehow find themselves in the semi final. And the EL is a competition without Europe's elite. If Barcelona and Arhletico Madrid win nothing this season, have you been more sucessfull than them too?

This sudden obsession that silverware, regardless of shape or form is infinitely more valuable than anything else is a strange one for me.

Because it defends our underwhelming season and it is a stick to beat Spurs with who have strangely become the most hated club on this forum.

 

[Womp]

Winning trophies is a good thing obviously. But as a Spurs fan I think we have been a better team than United this season, and therefore had a better season.

The league cup is a competition few people care much about unless they somehow find themselves in the semi final. And the EL is a competition without Europe's elite. If Barcelona and Arhletico Madrid win nothing this season, have you been more sucessfull than them too?

This sudden obsession that silverware, regardless of shape or form is infinitely more valuable than anything else is a strange one for me.

No one is saying we've been better than Spurs. We have had a better season though. You lot have played better football than Chelsea this season too, they've won the league though.

Good football without results is pointless to me. If we win the EL we will have ended the season with all the benefits you guys receive (qualifying for the CL) with two added trophies. So really don't see how you can suggest you've had a better season. Have you played better football and done better in the league? Sure. Have you had a better/more successful season? Not for me.

Good football is only important when you're winning things imo. This isn't an attack on Spurs btw, I'm enjoying what Poch is doing with you lot. All in all though people will remember this season as the year Chelsea won, not the year Spurs played good football and achieved nothing.

 

[el3mel]

Winning trophies is a good thing obviously. But as a Spurs fan I think we have been a better team than United this season, and therefore had a better season.

The league cup is a competition few people care much about unless they somehow find themselves in the semi final. And the EL is a competition without Europe's elite. If Barcelona and Arhletico Madrid win nothing this season, have you been more sucessfull than them too?

This sudden obsession that silverware, regardless of shape or form is infinitely more valuable than anything else is a strange one for me.

That's why you were eliminated by Genk then.....

 

[finneh]

Particularly during Fergie's tenure I was of the opinion that finishing first is a great achievement but finishing second is no achievement whatsoever, even when it was on goal difference.

I'd prefer to win the Europa League and finish 17th, rather than come 2nd. The only benefit of "top 4" is getting Champions League football, so if you could do that whilst not failing then that's naturally the favoured option.

 

[Womp]

Particularly during Fergie's tenure I was of the opinion that finishing first is a great achievement but finishing second is no achievement whatsoever, even when it was on goal difference.

I'd prefer to win the Europa League and finish 17th, rather than come 2nd. The only benefit of "top 4" is getting Champions League football, so if you could do that whilst not failing then that's naturally the favoured option.

Basically this, if you don't win it, you're just one of 18 other teams that failed.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Particularly during Fergie's tenure I was of the opinion that finishing first is a great achievement but finishing second is no achievement whatsoever, even when it was on goal difference.

I'd prefer to win the Europa League and finish 17th, rather than come 2nd. The only benefit of "top 4" is getting Champions League football, so if you could do that whilst not failing then that's naturally the favoured option.

Now this is just foolish.

 

[djdhrubs]

Winning trophies is a good thing obviously. But as a Spurs fan I think we have been a better team than United this season, and therefore had a better season.

The league cup is a competition few people care much about unless they somehow find themselves in the semi final. And the EL is a competition without Europe's elite. If Barcelona and Arhletico Madrid win nothing this season, have you been more sucessfull than them too?

This sudden obsession that silverware, regardless of shape or form is infinitely more valuable than anything else is a strange one for me.

Yes.

Spurs are a better team than United right now. But if we win the EL, we'll unquestionably have had a better season than Spurs. Winning 2 Cup competitions, even if one of them is the EFL, is nothing to be sniffed at.

 

[gajender]

Football fans are hypocrites we tend to bend the narrative to suit us. As for me league position is the best gauge of the actual quality of the team, cup competitions that includes even Champions league should never be used to judge the teams overall quality.

League position would be better indicator of how teams are set up for future successes mostly but until it's comes to fruition in form of trophies it's irrelevant and transfer market does allow teams to bridge the gap in off season . Trophies are tangible proof of successful season and not just promise of better future. As for some of the Spur's fans giving it to United if I remember correctly last season when they finished below Arsenal they were adamant league position wasn't important as they achieved their primary aim of qualifying for Champions league and it didn't matter if they finished 2nd or third so how is it different for United if we qualify for Champions league by winning Europa league even if we finish 6th.

But having said all this United need to properly challenge for league next season otherwise Mourinho need to go unless we win Champions league if we are in it one can hope.

 

[Randall Flagg]

You might take it for a season or 2. But I'm sure finishong outside the top 4 each season and picking up a cup here and there isn't what anyone really wants.

It's weird that league form is suddenly no longer a barometer.

Next season it is crucial that utd challenge in the league. If that means finishing 2nd and no cups. So be it. I reckon then we will be all rejoicing on how utd have shown great progress

 

[Insanity]

Particularly during Fergie's tenure I was of the opinion that finishing first is a great achievement but finishing second is no achievement whatsoever, even when it was on goal difference.

I'd prefer to win the Europa League and finish 17th, rather than come 2nd. The only benefit of "top 4" is getting Champions League football, so if you could do that whilst not failing then that's naturally the favoured option.

Sorry but that is absolutely rubbish. You think Fergie never finishing below 3rd in the PL would have been a similar achievement to him finishing first thirteen times and 17th in the rest? You think winning the FA cup was more important for Wigan (who have dropped another division this season) than staying up? Some weird logic being applied on here to justify our mediocrity this season.

At the end of the season, out last 4 league finishes would be - 7th, 4th, 5th and 6th. Which shows that we are making little to no progress despite spending huge amounts of money each summer and changing managers frequently. A few cups can't gloss over our failure to make a mark in the league.

 

[prtk0811]

Winning trophies is a good thing obviously. But as a Spurs fan I think we have been a better team than United this season, and therefore had a better season.

The league cup is a competition few people care much about unless they somehow find themselves in the semi final. And the EL is a competition without Europe's elite. If Barcelona and Arhletico Madrid win nothing this season, have you been more sucessfull than them too?

This sudden obsession that silverware, regardless of shape or form is infinitely more valuable than anything else is a strange one for me.

Well we agree tottenham has been a better team in the league, but what did tottenham managed to achive in europe ? Absolutely nothing. Knocked out of the champions league in group stages, knocked of the the europa league in very first game,

The thing is no one in next 5 years will remember about tottenham had a better team and season or not and no one likes to remember they finished 2nd , but in the end champions are always remembered more. Tottenham has had a great league season and has been a better team there is no doubt about that, But without a trophy its still Shineless, where as 5 years down the line , it still will be remembered as jose mourinho won these many trophies in his first season at united .

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Well we agree tottenham has been a better team in the league, but what did tottenham managed to achive in europe ? Absolutely nothing. Knocked out of the champions league in group stages, knocked of the the europa league in very first game,

The thing is no one in next 5 years will remember about tottenham had a better team and season or not and no one likes to remember they finished 2nd , but in the end champions are always remembered more. Tottenham has had a great league season and has been a better team there is no doubt about that, But without a trophy its still Shineless, where as 5 years down the line , it still will be remembered as jose mourinho won these many trophies in his first season at united .

Without google could remember who won the league cup and the Europa League 5 years ago?

 

[prtk0811]

Football fans are hypocrites we tend to bend the narrative to suit us. As for me league position is the best gauge of the actual quality of the team, cup competitions that includes even Champions league should never be used to judge the teams overall quality.

League position would be better indicator of how teams are set up for future successes mostly but until it's comes to fruition in form of trophies it's irrelevant and transfer market does allow teams to bridge the gap in off season . Trophies are tangible proof of successful season and not just promise of better future. As for some of the Spur's fans giving it to United if I remember correctly last season when they finished below Arsenal they were adamant league position wasn't important as they achieved their primary aim of qualifying for Champions league and it didn't matter if they finished 2nd or third so how is it different for United if we qualify for Champions league by winning Europa league even if we finish 6th.

But having said all this United need to properly challenge for league next season otherwise Mourinho need to go unless we win Champions league if we are in it one can hope.

Mourinho will go no where , We are not a club who plays managerial circus, Stability is crucial for long term success and that's what united have always won with and will always try to achive with a manager who deserves time and stability as he knows what he's doing, We are a club with a strong philosophy and principles and we are not going to go away from that, With time and proper balance in the team mourinho will always deliver titles including the epl.

 

[prtk0811]

Without google could remember who won the league cup and the Europa League 5 years ago?

UK does not need google to remember that,

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Mourinho will go no where , We are not a club who plays managerial circus, Stability is crucial for long term success and that's what united have always won with and will always try to achive with a manager who deserves time and stability as he knows what he's doing, We are a club with a strong philosophy and principles and we are not going to go away from that, With time and proper balance in the team mourinho will always deliver titles including the epl.

We are part of the circus now just enjoy the show.

 

[prtk0811]

We are part of the circus now just enjoy the show.

We are a unique club in world football , and it will remain that way.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

We are a unique club in world football , and it will remain that way.

We proved these last few years that we are no longer unique.

 

[prtk0811]

We proved these last few years that we are no longer unique.

No that's a completely wrong interpretation , and misjudgment.

 

[el3mel]

So our fans are now entering the stage of mocking our own trophies to prove a point ? What did we leave to the opposite fans then if we're already mocking our own cups ? I have never imagined our fans will do that some day. Were we mocking our league cup win in 2010 when it was our only trophy this season ?

If you are passing by a decline stage but still managing to win trophies as FA, EFL or EL it's more than impressive to keep the winning mentality on even when you are passing by your worst years. Liverpool had gone 11 years with only one league cup and Arsenal got 4 trophies in last 11 years while we in our worst 4 years, got 4 trophies and on the marche of a fifth one. We could have gone dead as them and not winning anything at all.

We'll return to league challenging sooner or later, but it's important to keep the winning mentality going on and keep winning any piece of silverware you can because they all count in your history. Winning trophies while you are in your terrible years is more than enough indicator to us being an elite club.

 

[Shark]

If we finish below Arsenal and fail to win the Europa League, Jose is going to have to do a lot next season to recover my trust that he's truly the right man for the job. The thing is, I really want him to be a huge success, and I'm not sure who we'd turn to from here. The thought of yet another manager coming in with the likes of Young, Jones, Fellaini and Rooney still here makes me a tiny bit sick.

 

[WPMUFC]

Jose is going to have to do a lot next season to recover my trust that he's truly the right man for the job.

It’s cold comfort, but despite the lack of goals, this United team is better than in years past. Everything other than United’s finishing has improved.

It’s small consolation for United fans coping with the possibility of a fifth-place season, but United’s attack actually marks a decided step forward for the club.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/manchester-united-is-too-unlucky-to-be-great/

How quickly we forget the sarcastic cheering and clapping at Old Trafford after we had a shot at goal. LVG destroyed this squad.

Jose has taken this team out of the three-season swap of Moyes and LVG and is achieving great improvements. After season 2 of LVG, i'm glad we're even challenging for a EL final. LVG and the board were about to turn us into liverpool.

 

[Speedicut75]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/manchester-united-is-too-unlucky-to-be-great/

How quickly we forget the sarcastic cheering and clapping at Old Trafford after we had a shot at goal. LVG destroyed this squad.

Jose has taken this team out of the three-season swap of Moyes and LVG and is achieving great improvements. After season 2 of LVG, i'm glad we're even challenging for a EL final. LVG and the board were about to turn us into liverpool.

Excellent post. Can't stand the whining toxicity being spewed by some of our supporters.

 

[krazyrobus]

I think the performances have been alright. We create good chances, we just don't finish them. Is that in his control, partly bit I'm putting more blame on the players for that than him. Maybe I am being biased by the utter dross that Lvg served last season and mourinho's team is average.

Mourinho's one failing for me is his lack of rotation. Zlatan and Pogba played a ridiculous amount of games. Break down was inevitable. We had bastion and Morgan. I think he should have tried them more to try and get them to play into form like Fellaini. I'm not saying it could have worked but certainly he didn't give them enough chances.

He can't cater for the defensive crisis as the players all rotated themselves by being constantly injured. He tried to solve the finishing issue by bringing in a world class striker who could finish the hard chances but bottle the easy ones.
Maybe he could also take some blame for not making the players, some of them mentally tough. I feel that is the reason they couldn't score at OT, maybe that's a bit unfair.

 

[Adebesi]

On the Spurs thing I think it's pretty clear it can be argued both ways. Spurs have looked better than us. They've played better, more attractive football and been far more consistent. I think most of us understand there is an inherent value in that, especially after the last few seasons we've had, how many times have I read people saying they'd be happy not winning but playing good football? And coming second is an achievement in this league, as much as people want to look down their noses at it from the lofty heights of the League Cup winners podium.

But it's also true that we've won a cup, and could win another. The Micky Mouse Double > 2nd in the PL. The memory of scoring so few goals, drawing so many games and being utterly underwhelming will fade but our names will remain engraved on at least one trophy. If we make it two I'd take our season over theirs but I can see why they'd feel otherwise. There is no doubt they have been better than us. If we fail to win the EL it's a no brainer for me, I'd take their season over the League Cup and 5th / 6th.

 

[Womp]

If we finish below Arsenal and fail to win the Europa League, Jose is going to have to do a lot next season to recover my trust that he's truly the right man for the job. The thing is, I really want him to be a huge success, and I'm not sure who we'd turn to from here. The thought of yet another manager coming in with the likes of Young, Jones, Fellaini and Rooney still here makes me a tiny bit sick.

No doubt if we fail to win the Europa it'll be a failed season but if we were to win it, it'd hardly be a disgraceful season as some of the lot on here are making out. It'd be a good first season with two trophies and CL qualification, albeit a frustrating one.

 

[hellohello]

Because it defends our underwhelming season and it is a stick to beat Spurs with who have strangely become the most hated club on this forum.

Haha, I'm starting to think you're right. For the record I think winning two trophies in a season of quite mediocre performances is a really good return. This and the unbeaten streak show a strong mentality that shouldn't just be thrown away, but is a good thing to build on.

No one is saying we've been better than Spurs. We have had a better season though. You lot have played better football than Chelsea this season too, they've won the league though.

Good football without results is pointless to me. If we win the EL we will have ended the season with all the benefits you guys receive (qualifying for the CL) with two added trophies. So really don't see how you can suggest you've had a better season. Have you played better football and done better in the league? Sure. Have you had a better/more successful season? Not for me.

Good football is only important when you're winning things imo. This isn't an attack on Spurs btw, I'm enjoying what Poch is doing with you lot. All in all though people will remember this season as the year Chelsea won, not the year Spurs played good football and achieved nothing.

I'm not talking about good football. I'm talking about results and performances on the pitch. Despite not winning anything this season we are far ahead of the 4 other teams in the top 6. We have won a lot more matches than you, that's why I think we have had a better season.

Now if this was closer and you finished the season having performed similarly in the league but you have also won the league cup or EL I would absolutely say you've had a better season. But the gulf in the league performances have been large enough for me to claim we've been better.

I'd still say you would have had a better season than Liverpool, City and Arsenal if you win the EL though. Unless Arsenal clinch top 4 and win the FA cup, then it's quite comparable imo. Maybe I come across as blinkered here, but I have always valued the league highly, and I'm proud of what we have achieved there even though we ultimately fell short.

 

[hellohello]

On the Spurs thing I think it's pretty clear it can be argued both ways. Spurs have looked better than us. They've played better, more attractive football and been far more consistent. I think most of us understand there is an inherent value in that, especially after the last few seasons we've had, how many times have I read people saying they'd be happy not winning but playing good football? And coming second is an achievement in this league, as much as people want to look down their noses at it from the lofty heights of the League Cup winners podium.

But it's also true that we've won a cup, and could win another. The Micky Mouse Double > 2nd in the PL. The memory of scoring so few goals, drawing so many games and being utterly underwhelming will fade but our names will remain engraved on at least one trophy. If we make it two I'd take our season over theirs but I can see why they'd feel otherwise. There is no doubt they have been better than us. If we fail to win the EL it's a no brainer for me, I'd take their season over the League Cup and 5th / 6th.

That's fair enough, I agree it can be argued either way. Big game tonight, looking forward to it more than any of the CL second legs this week (since they were more or less decided although athletico tried).

 

[lysglimt]

It's actually really simple

a) we win the Europa League and the season will have been a big success
b) we don't and it will have been a disaster

 

[rocks13]

It's actually really simple

a) we win the Europa League and the season will have been a big success
b) we don't and it will have been a disaster

I certainly agree with this but doubt that the pro-Mourinho brigade would be prepared to accept it.