General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[DenisIrwin]

By admitting he won't use them, you're taking away the deterrent to those who would happily nuke us in an instant. Surely, surely you can see that?

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[starman]

If we see education as a good thing, what's the problem? As those who want it will then go to university?

At least those who wouldn't have wanted it so much can reap the rewards, should they choose.

Because its wasting money on people that are just going for the university experience and not for the actual education. If its free it should be means tested for the people who can't afford it and should remain free for those abide to a certain standard. I didn't, but got my grants.

 

[Berbaclass]

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Yes, that's The Telegraph's Tim Stanley

Wow

 

[RedSky]

Did you regard the Cold War as dick measuring?

I didn't live through it so no idea. Common sense and diplomacy ended it though.

 

[Cheesy]

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Yes, that's The Telegraph's Tim Stanley

fecking hell, if Tim Stanley's praising him I'm expecting an endorsement by Theresa May herself by the morning.

 

[Devil_forever]

I'm so confused about this nuclear bomb question.

Who the hell are these countries that are imminently about to nuke us exactly? North Korea? Iran with their non existent nukes? Really? Are you kidding me?

Its funny that that guy talked about some crazy in Iran launching a nuke at us. Yet it wouldn't be basically insane to drop a nuke on residential areas in ?Pyongyang/ Beijing/ Washington/ Paris apparently in response to one of them firing a nuke at us? In some weird alternate reality?

Canada, Germany, Japan and just about every major economy other than a very small handful manage to get by without nukes and without this weird discussion about whether you'd be willing to hypothetically slaughter millions of innocent people.

Rather than issues that are actually affecting us in the UK?

Holy shit. It's almost like international relations don't change, especially over the course of the next 5 years to 50 years.

 

[Fergies Gum]

Boris needs to get a grip. The Labour guy looks like he wants to smack him.

 

[Silva]

I didn't live through it so no idea. Common sense and diplomacy ended it though.

Nah, the USSR went broke

Their dick was smaller, evidently.

 

[Ubik]

The trouble with Corbyn and the nuclear question is that he can't be fully honest on it. He wants to abandon the system so he can use the funds elsewhere - an idea with plenty of support, I'd say. But given he has to commit to renewing the subs (by the unions as much as anyone), he has to do the obfuscation which doesn't convince. But again, I think this may already be priced in anyway.

 

[FromTheBench]

Anyone watching him play dodgeball with that question could tell that he was non comital to using it regardless of the situation.

Well he should have just said yes, i agree to the contrived scenario but not sure what not committing changes.

 

[Sweet Square]

So conventional mass bombings with huge casualties aren't taking place all over the world right now as we speak? This notion that the world would police itself without the need for us to have a nuclear deterrent is beyond naive.

You do realise that the British government is supplying these bombs right. Sorry to break this to you but you are not the good guys.

 

[Dobba]

So conventional mass bombings with huge casualties aren't taking place all over the world right now as we speak? This notion that the world would police itself without the need for us to have a nuclear deterrent is beyond naive.

Blimey, that sounds awful. We need to find the countries supplying these bombs and threaten them with a nuke if they don't stop it.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

The trouble with Corbyn and the nuclear question is that he can't be fully honest on it. He wants to abandon the system so he can use the funds elsewhere - an idea with plenty of support, I'd say. But given he has to commit to renewing the subs (by the unions as much as anyone), he has to do the obfuscation which doesn't convince. But again, I think this may already be priced in anyway.

He makes an unneccesary ordeal of his answers on the topic. All he needs to say is:

"As President Obama said, I believe we should be working to reduce nuclear stockpiles and ultimately to a world free of nuclear weapons. But I want to leave people in no doubt, should any country launch an attack on Britain I would use any means necessary to defend our country and people, including our nuclear deterrent."

 

[Jep]

One thing that annoys me is MPs have no experience in real work especially in the departments they represent. Minister of defence should have military experience, minister of health should have experience of working in health services.

This is incredibly naive. No one has a clear idea of what the job market will look like in 20 years thanks to the inevitable rise of AI. In fact flexibility in skills is going to be very important. We should be making sure (1) that students are not overly financially burdened by their choice of study, a choice which may turn out to be a lot less useful than anticipated, and (2) that retraining or changing careers is financially viable, something that it currently is not - second degrees are ££££

If AI takes over that much, there will not be many jobs available for anyone. If a persons degree is useless upon graduation then they chose a worthless degree or the wrong degree and thats on them. If flexible skills are required then perhaps degrees are not the way forward seeing as they are specialised and take time to achieve, whilst being flexible in skills is usually dependent on the person.

 

[Jep]

So give students from 'poorer' backgrounds (I hope that doesn't sound too condescending) a rebate, not everyone.

This is how it was before, as fees were always means tested.

 

[RedSky]

One thing that annoys me is MPs have no experience in real work especially in the departments they represent. Minister of defence should have military experience, minister of health should have experience of working in health services.

If AI takes over that much, there will not be many jobs available for anyone. If a persons degree is useless upon graduation then they chose a worthless degree or the wrong degree and thats on them. If flexible skills are required then perhaps degrees are not the way forward seeing as they are specialised and take time to achieve, whilst being flexible in skills is usually dependent on the person.

Can't tell you the amount of times i've said this in the last two years. I completely agree with you.

 

[africanspur]

Holy shit. It's almost like international relations don't change, especially over the course of the next 5 years to 50 years.

Holy shit indeed. Its almost like nobody has been nuked in the past 70 years, regardless of whether they have nukes or not! Incredible.

Its fine though. Because Trump's finger is going to slip soon. Or Xi will decide that he's had enough of peaceful growth and instead. Or Kim, who couldn't give two fecks about the UK, will suddenly decide to nuke London. Or Macron will decide the negotiations for Brexit are just too difficult. Or something. Right?

Again, what are the realistic scenarios that you forsee in the next 5 years where the UK is engaged in nuclear conflict with one of the aformentioned 8 countries?

 

[Cheesy]

One thing that annoys me is MPs have no experience in real work especially in the departments they represent. Minister of defence should have military experience, minister of health should have experience of working in health services.

Aye, unfortunately appointments tend to be more ideological, made to either placate certain MP's from within or even more cynically, to set them up for a fall. May likely put Boris in as foreign secretary to ensure he wasn't plotting against her from behind the scenes and to ensure his reputation would be ruined if he fecked up too badly; the fact he's got no relative competence to hold the position didn't seem to matter.

Likewise, Jeremy Hunt's awful as Health Secretary but is mostly a fall-guy, so that when the Tories do get rid of him attention is diverted his way, and the wider failings of the party are ignored.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

So conventional mass bombings with huge casualties aren't taking place all over the world right now as we speak? This notion that the world would police itself without the need for us to have a nuclear deterrent is beyond naive.

You've jumped the shark there to be honest. No conventional bombing anywhere in the world has the potential to set off a chain reaction of similar launches that wipe out the human race.

 

[ThierryHenry]

I mean, I'm primarily a lefty.

But I like things to move slowly over time. Doing everything Labour want to do in a single term would be really difficult to get right. And all on the back drop of Brexit.

My Manifesto Review, spoiler ed as its massive

Spoiler

What I like:


Indifferent:

Bad:

Not finished yet, want to see if this fits on one page

Meant to say I liked this analysis.

 

[sammsky1]

For the older voters amongst us, has a campaign ever been run as badly as what the Conservatives have run over the last few weeks?

Labour campaigns under Foot and Kinnock were beyond disastrous

 

[unchanged_lineup]

No. As I said, EU membership rules and regulations are to blame. Theresa may understood migration concerns, but EU membership R & Rs gave her no hope of changing anything as home secretary.



She has the support of the British people that she's willing to crash the whole damn system if necessary.



Depends on how much electoral support she has.

Literally none of this post is in any way true.

 

[montpelier]

He makes an unneccesary ordeal of his answers on the topic. All he needs to say is:

"As President Obama said, I believe we should be working to reduce nuclear stockpiles and ultimately to a world free of nuclear weapons. But I want to leave people in no doubt, should any country launch an attack on Britain I would use any means necessary to defend our country and people, including our nuclear deterrent."

I'm inclined to agree. His position ultimately defaults to being this anyway.

But he likes the preciseness of language, I suspect. And would feel that it contracts to undertaking to keep the weapons in some way, enmeshed in the semantics or somesuch. Ends up wibbling isn't it, basically.

 

[rcoobc]

If I recall correctly, you were one of those posters who would lament how supposedly weak and unelectable he was throughout the course of this thread.

Yes I am. You are correct. Although, I more blame the entire Labour party rather than just Jeremy.

But, I mean more in terms of, what the Labour manifesto would do for everyone individually. It's been said many times, but it's the same people who complain about the state of the NHS, the same people who say no politician is trying to help them, the same people who want the rich to pay more taxes that are going to vote Conservative because "strong and stable" and because "Brexit".

It's madness. I think the criticisms of Jeremy remain valid. He was extraordinarily weak at the start (watch the VICE documentary with him), and his background defending the IRA, and campaigning against Nuclear Weapons has put people off (not that I've ever given him criticism for that), and has been extremely lacklustre during PMQs, and he has been god-awful with the media.

But ever since the Labour Manifesto leaked, things have begun to improve. The right wing media said that Labour was going to bring us back to the 70's by nationalising everything... but maybe people want to go back to the 70's right now. After all, that's when the big voting generation grew up. We're certainly doing it with Brexit. Then the real Manifesto came out, and it was costed. Okay - some of the costings may not have been 100% accurate, and maybe Diane Abbott couldn't remember any numbers she came on to talk about... but it was costed. By and large, it added up (actually not, see the IFS criticism, but it's a start). Then the Tories made some epic mistakes, and Labour began to actually capitalise

Yeah, basically, if the forgotten classes don't vote Labour this time. I question democracy.

I probably won't be voting Labour. But I certainly won't be voting Tory

 

[Jep]

Can't tell you the amount of times i've said this in the last two years. I completely agree with you.

We should start a party . Honestly really annoys me they have a large say over an industry but have no understanding of it. Also think we should always have a government which includes all parties to get a balanced approach but will never happen as they would just argue.

 

[africanspur]

Russia is back on the front foot internationally, not respecting borders or conventions. Our closest ally elected a crypto-facist last year. Our nearest neighbour had a facist come second in their presidential election just last month. Did you somehow miss these events?

The world is more dangerous now than at any time since the end of the Cold War, in my opinion. Things can go wrong so quickly, I'm nowhere near as confident as you that nuclear weapons won't be used in the near future. If things go very wrong for Trump, I'd give it a reasonable chance of happening in the next four years.

Can you see a genuine scenario where we are engaged in a nuclear conflict with Russia in the next 5 years? Genuinely? And one in which Corbyn's decisions about nukes will play a big role? Our closest ally elected a crypto-fascist last year who is in love with us. Our nearest neighbour had a fascist come second who loves us and our recent political decisions.

I didn't miss these events no. But again, I don't see how you've made the leap there to decide that we're any closer to nuclear war with the USA or France than we were 3 years ago. Things go wrong for Trump in what way? Are you talking about an impeachment scenario? Or that Trump just decides to go a bit crazy and nuke China or something?

 

[Fully Fledged]

I like the fact that he won't use them. If someone nukes us, we've already lost.

I'm happy that he is not willing to kill millions of kids.

 

[altodevil]

A lot of what you are alluding to is that he's too honest, too frank about his views. It's refreshing, I think it's great, but at the end of the day it will fall on the deaf ears of the electorate. One can hope things will be different in the future.

 

[Sylar]

The debate needed another 20 minutes on nuclear weapons. Dont think enough time was spent on it.

Corbyn is right - that we have lost if a nuke is headed in our direction.
but he will lose votes for not saying, 'ill wipe them out if they wipe us out, eye for an eye, millions for millions' or something.


May will be happier. Shes good at dodging questions with a standard buzz worthy answer especially if there are no follow up queries.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No. As I said, EU membership rules and regulations are to blame. Theresa may understood migration concerns, but EU membership R & Rs gave her no hope of changing anything as home secretary.

She has the support of the British people that she's willing to crash the whole damn system if necessary.

Depends on how much electoral support she has.

EU membership had nothing to do with immigration from outside the EU. This was one fundamental misunderstanding of Brexit.

It looks as if it will be a no deal anyway so if the UK crashes out, she will blame the EU and if that doesn't work, she'll blame the "will of the people"

As I said why does the EU care how much support she has from the British electorate, it doesn't influence whether she gets a deal or not, either she accepts the terms of what she's after or she doesn't.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Again, what are the realistic scenarios that you forsee in the next 5 years where the UK is engaged in nuclear conflict with one of the aformentioned 8 countries?

Ok, I'll answer the question...

• Russia invades or fosters a coup attempt in Estonia, similar to Ukraine or Georgia. As a member of NATO, Estonia invokes Clause 5 (the collective defence of member states) and it escalates from there.
• A major terrorist attack on the United States (on the scale of 9/11) causes Trump to overreact and use a nuclear weapon against whichever country the US accuses of sponsoring the attack or harbouring the attackers. It escalates from there based on the alliances of the country attacked.
• There is a major attack on Israel, nukes are launched in response by Israel/US.
• The Korean ceasefire breaks down for any number of reasons (internal relations within North Korea). With Seoul under attack, the US and China are now on opposing sides of a hot military conflict.
• A global economic meltdown causes populist/facist revolution in one of the nuclear states and the whole of global political relations changes immediately.

To be honest, there are hundreds of possible scenarios.

 

[Nikhil]

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Class

 

[jackofalltrades]

Didn't see the programme but did anyone ask him whether he'd be prepared to launch a first strike ? If they didn't, I bet that question would have followed the Obama style answer.

 

[Nikhil]

Ok, I'll answer the question...

• Russia invades or fosters a coup attempt in Estonia, similar to Ukraine or Georgia. As a member of NATO, Estonia invokes Clause 5 (the collective defence of member states) and it escalates from there.
• A major terrorist attack on the United States (on the scale of 9/11) causes Trump to overreact and use a nuclear weapon against whichever country the US accuses of sponsoring the attack or harbouring the attackers. It escalates from there based on the alliances of the country attacked.
• There is a major attack on Israel, nukes are launched in response by Israel/US against
• The Korean ceasefire breaks down for any number of reasons (internal relations within North Korea). With Seoul under attack, the US and China are now on opposing sides of a hot military conflict.
• A global economic meltdown causes populist/facist revolution in one of the nuclear states and the whole of global political relations changes immediately.

To be honest, there are hundreds of possible scenarios.

Could we quote you on this in 5 year's time? Random stuff that will never happen.

 

[Jep]

Ok, I'll answer the question...

• Russia invades or fosters a coup attempt in Estonia, similar to Ukraine or Georgia. As a member of NATO, Estonia invokes Clause 5 (the collective defence of member states) and it escalates from there.
• A major terrorist attack on the United States (on the scale of 9/11) causes Trump to overreact and use a nuclear weapon against whichever country the US accuses of sponsoring the attack or harbouring the attackers. It escalates from there based on the alliances of the country attacked.
• There is a major attack on Israel, nukes are launched in response by Israel/US against
• The Korean ceasefire breaks down for any number of reasons (internal relations within North Korea). With Seoul under attack, the US and China are now on opposing sides of a hot military conflict.
• A global economic meltdown causes populist/facist revolution in one of the nuclear states and the whole of global political relations changes immediately.

To be honest, there are hundreds of possible scenarios.

I didnt ask that question.

 

[Untied]

One thing that annoys me is MPs have no experience in real work especially in the departments they represent. Minister of defence should have military experience, minister of health should have experience of working in health services.

If AI takes over that much, there will not be many jobs available for anyone. If a persons degree is useless upon graduation then they chose a worthless degree or the wrong degree and thats on them. If flexible skills are required then perhaps degrees are not the way forward seeing as they are specialised and take time to achieve, whilst being flexible in skills is usually dependent on the person.

One thing that annoys me is football managers who have no top level playing experience

The crossover in skillset between frontline health professional and secretary of state for health is essentially zero.

 

[Badunk]

Crazy how the same little enclave in the audience were criticising him for supporting "murderers" like the IRA and Hamas one minute, then furious that he wouldn't commit to murdering millions of innocent people the next.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I didnt ask that question.

Realistic scenarios leading to nuclear war/ potential nuclear attack on UK?

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Could we quote you on this in 5 year's time? Random stuff that will never happen.

If someone had told you 5 years ago that Europe's established borders would be changing again through armed conflict, would you have believed them?

 

[ThierryHenry]

Real chance Farron loses his seat. Dear oh dear. One to watch on the night, if we've already been dis'may'ed by the exit poll. Might bring a chuckle.

What's this? To who? Would be great to see - lose Farron, gain Vauxhall please.