Oh yeah. Names are very similar heh.Lyssa. Lyanna is Jon Snow's mother.
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
- Thread starter ha_rooney
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Think u have the name wrong..
It's Lysa.. Lyanna is Jon's mother
Edit:Looks like I'm late.. Sorry
Too late kotha, you got out geeked by DatIrishFella 
Baelish will get found out this season and meet a grisly end. I'm going to guess at a timeline.
First couple of episodes: As we've seen in the trailer, Jon and Baelish have a conversation in the crypt - probably about Jon's heritage or that he's not a "proper king" - remember that it was Baelish who told Sansa the story about Rhaegar and Lyanna in season 5. The conversation leads to Jon becoming a bit wound up and pushing Baelish up against the wall, mirroring Ned's first meeting with him in season one outside the King's Landing brothel. Littlefinger will use this chat as an opportunity to get the measure of Jon, to see how easily he can be wound up, and will begin to plant the idea in Sansa's head that she's a more worthy ruler because her temper is cooler and she's a better strategist - "Jon can't be trusted, that's why you didn't tell him about the Knights of the Vale" he'll say to her. Sansa will begin to doubt Jon, and if she's got even the slightest inkling that he's a Targaryen there could be more trouble in the works.
Mid-season: Jon has left Winterfell to go north beyond the Wall, leaving Sansa in charge. Baelish takes this opportunity to show Sansa she can manage the politics of the North by herself, that she could easily step in and do the job if Jon were to die beyond the Wall. Arya and Bran have both arrived back at Winterfell, but the reunion doesn't last long as Baelish immediately sets about causing a rift between the Stark children, playing on the fact that Arya and Sansa never got on in the first place. Cracks begin to appear in the relationship between the Stark children.
Final two/three episodes: Something happens to make Sansa reconsider things. Maybe Brienne says a few wise words. This, I imagine, is where the "The lone wolf dies but the pack survives" speech will come into it, that Sansa, Jon, Arya and Bran need to stick together when the full force of winter arrives. Maybe the show will make it really convenient and wrap it up easily, with Bran looking into the past and seeing that Baelish betrayed Ned, murdered Jon Arryn and that his feelings for Sansa are a mixture of necrophiliac lust for Catelyn and his own desire to take the Iron Throne. He's betrayed a Stark to get what he wants before, and he'll betray a Stark to get what he wants again. With everything out in the wash, Sansa sentences Baelish to death and Arya carries out the deed with his own dagger. Everyone goes home happy.
First couple of episodes: As we've seen in the trailer, Jon and Baelish have a conversation in the crypt - probably about Jon's heritage or that he's not a "proper king" - remember that it was Baelish who told Sansa the story about Rhaegar and Lyanna in season 5. The conversation leads to Jon becoming a bit wound up and pushing Baelish up against the wall, mirroring Ned's first meeting with him in season one outside the King's Landing brothel. Littlefinger will use this chat as an opportunity to get the measure of Jon, to see how easily he can be wound up, and will begin to plant the idea in Sansa's head that she's a more worthy ruler because her temper is cooler and she's a better strategist - "Jon can't be trusted, that's why you didn't tell him about the Knights of the Vale" he'll say to her. Sansa will begin to doubt Jon, and if she's got even the slightest inkling that he's a Targaryen there could be more trouble in the works.
Mid-season: Jon has left Winterfell to go north beyond the Wall, leaving Sansa in charge. Baelish takes this opportunity to show Sansa she can manage the politics of the North by herself, that she could easily step in and do the job if Jon were to die beyond the Wall. Arya and Bran have both arrived back at Winterfell, but the reunion doesn't last long as Baelish immediately sets about causing a rift between the Stark children, playing on the fact that Arya and Sansa never got on in the first place. Cracks begin to appear in the relationship between the Stark children.
Final two/three episodes: Something happens to make Sansa reconsider things. Maybe Brienne says a few wise words. This, I imagine, is where the "The lone wolf dies but the pack survives" speech will come into it, that Sansa, Jon, Arya and Bran need to stick together when the full force of winter arrives. Maybe the show will make it really convenient and wrap it up easily, with Bran looking into the past and seeing that Baelish betrayed Ned, murdered Jon Arryn and that his feelings for Sansa are a mixture of necrophiliac lust for Catelyn and his own desire to take the Iron Throne. He's betrayed a Stark to get what he wants before, and he'll betray a Stark to get what he wants again. With everything out in the wash, Sansa sentences Baelish to death and Arya carries out the deed with his own dagger. Everyone goes home happy.
Foreshadowing is one reason I think Sansa will
outlast Dany and become a Queen. Having Jon and Dany meet up and win everything is just too obvious.
I don't remember exactly where it was, but it stuck with me. Tyrion remarks as Sansa passes by, '...Sansa, you may outlast us all.'
I don't remember exactly where it was, but it stuck with me. Tyrion remarks as Sansa passes by, '...Sansa, you may outlast us all.'
In any other show I'd say that was a stretch, but the amount of foreshadowing that goes on in this makes me think what you say is not only possible but would be quite neat.
Are they still married? Technically?
I'm not an expert in marriage law in my own country, much less Westeros. They never consummated it, so there's that I suppose.
I hope so, but when is GoT ever this nice and fluffy? ha
Well considering Baelish has absolutely nothing to offer the endgame, which will be dealing with the White Walkers, I'd say season 7 episode 7 is when it'll get this nice and fluffy. 
Currently re-watching season 6. Don't remember it being this good when I watched it the first time around.
The first half was pretty average other than episode 2 no? Then 6-10 is pretty awesome
That's what I thought when I first saw it, but I'm really enjoying it. So many stories get further advanced like the three-eyed raven, children of the forest and the creation of the white walkers, Bran, Arya, the Hound, etc. After the overall disappointment of season 5, the 6th season was a nice rebound with a lot of stories moving forward. Maybe I need to re-watch the 5th season as well.
Since G.R.R.M. gave up his duties as a producer, and as they moved away from the original group of directors from the first four seasons, the show has taken a slight dip (so bits of season 5 and most of season 6). The dialogue isn't as sharp as it once was when they were able to pull lines directly from the books (you wouldn't get something like "chaos is a ladder" in season 5 or 6); the games operating in the background aren't as devious (Sansa's ace in the hole to defeat Ramsay with the Knights of the Vale would have been a hugely cathartic moment if we'd never seen her send that raven to Baelish two episodes earlier); the way characters are used in the roles they've taken on since season 5 aren't quite as entertaining (Tyrion's better in King's Landing and frankly they wasted him in season 6), and G.R.R.M.'s original idea, that characters you love would be brutally and fatally punished - fatally on occasion - for making mistakes has gone by the wayside to set up the Good vs. Evil showdown that's clearly coming in season 8 (seriously, Jon was wearing some seriously thick plot armour in the battle for Winterfell despite being a total fecking idiot and charging into battle).
But having said all of that, season 5 and 6 are still two fantastic seasons of TV for very different reasons. Season 5 is patient to put it generously, and before I watched it through a second and third time I used to tell people it was essentially six episodes of slow build-up, The Gift (where Tyrion finally meets Dany), and then three episodes where the entire season explodes in an instant, with Tyrion and Dany's first conversation, the Hardhome massacre, Shireen's death, Cersei's walk of atonement, Stannis' defeat and Jon's "death" all colliding within about three hours of television. But watching back through, season 5 might still be the weakest of the bunch but from a character development perspective it's one of the most subtle and rewarding. Sansa's journey from s4e10 to s5e10 is an arc that would usually deserve more time to develop but they pack it in brilliantly; Brienne and Pod share some lovely scenes whilst patiently waiting to rescue Sansa; the Dorne storyline is remembered for the terrible Sand Snakes but Jaime's role in that plot is the final step on his journey from Slimeball to Honourable Gentleman; the main plotline for season 6 in King's Landing is weaved patiently as Cersei arms the Faith Militant; the tension at Castle Black rises to boiling point. There's more to season 5 than people give it credit for.
Season 6, on the other hand, is basically the total opposite in terms of pacing - "Efficiency is coming" as we joked. Honestly, by episode s6e4: Arya's blindness is gone and her stick training is done, Dany's escaped from Vaes Dothrak with a Dothraki army, Jon's been resurrected and left the Watch, Margaery's in the High Sparrow's good books, Dorne is controlled by the Sand Snakes, Roose is dead and Ramsay has Rickon, Balon's dead and Euron has assumed his post, Bran's learning how to time-travel in his mind. There are conclusive plotpoints arriving all over the map really early on, and even some of the mid-season episodes have some great scenes (Jaime and Edmure's scene in the tent, for example). But even if they do end up making a clumsy mess of the siege at Riverrun ("But he's my lord, my lord" / Blackfish's death) and Arya's whole thing (who was the Waif? Why was Arya suddenly No One? Is anyone ever gonna explain that?), season 6 was when the show finally embraced its potential to go for needlessly grandiose, sickeningly cheesy glory, and got it spot on. Dany burning the Dothraki church is a ginormous and baffling powerplay, the Battle of the Bastards is so fecking overblown, everything that happens with Hodor's death is utterly ridiculous, Cersei's destruction of the Sept of Baelor is another powerplay and is utterly perplexing - and yet all these big moments work so bloody well because the show embraced them all and delivered each of them with really defiant conviction. In the way that the explosion of wildfire in Blackwater thrust us into a new era of the show - that would contain stunning visual effects and giant climactic incidents - and in the way that Hardhome tested that water a little more (the first time we saw the White Walkers' true power and Miguel Sapochnik's ace direction of a battle scene), season 6 takes us that step further in basically every major plotline.
And if the trailer for season 7 is anything to go by, they're going to give us one of these gigantic/baffling powerplays (or a huge battle/fight) per episode. [Spoilers follow]. We've got the Unsullied invading Casterly Rock, the Lannisters invading Highgarden, the Dothraki and dragons fighting the Lannisters, Jon & co. facing the White Walkers, a battle involving Euron out at sea, and I'd imagine there's a huge moment coming that they've deliberately left out of the trailer (my prediction is the Wall collapsing). If season 6 was anything to go by, the show's going to head into this season with the intent to make this the largest in scale in terms of effects, collisions, chaos and drama. If they deliver it with huge, overblown conviction then I can take some sloppy dialogue and clumsy writing now and then. When season 4 ended a huge reset button was pressed on the show, with so many key characters in new places on the map, which is why it slowed down a fair bit for season 5. But at the same time a reset button was pressed on the creators too, whose vision since has taken the show in a totally new direction, one where it focused less on game-playing, betrayal and small-scale tragedies (think about it, the Red Wedding was the best moment in the show's history but it was roughly 20 people being slaughtered in one room, not 1,000 people being blown to bits by Cersei). It needed to evolve to produce what we saw in season 6 and what we're about to see in season 7, and frankly I can't wait.
But having said all of that, season 5 and 6 are still two fantastic seasons of TV for very different reasons. Season 5 is patient to put it generously, and before I watched it through a second and third time I used to tell people it was essentially six episodes of slow build-up, The Gift (where Tyrion finally meets Dany), and then three episodes where the entire season explodes in an instant, with Tyrion and Dany's first conversation, the Hardhome massacre, Shireen's death, Cersei's walk of atonement, Stannis' defeat and Jon's "death" all colliding within about three hours of television. But watching back through, season 5 might still be the weakest of the bunch but from a character development perspective it's one of the most subtle and rewarding. Sansa's journey from s4e10 to s5e10 is an arc that would usually deserve more time to develop but they pack it in brilliantly; Brienne and Pod share some lovely scenes whilst patiently waiting to rescue Sansa; the Dorne storyline is remembered for the terrible Sand Snakes but Jaime's role in that plot is the final step on his journey from Slimeball to Honourable Gentleman; the main plotline for season 6 in King's Landing is weaved patiently as Cersei arms the Faith Militant; the tension at Castle Black rises to boiling point. There's more to season 5 than people give it credit for.
Season 6, on the other hand, is basically the total opposite in terms of pacing - "Efficiency is coming" as we joked. Honestly, by episode s6e4: Arya's blindness is gone and her stick training is done, Dany's escaped from Vaes Dothrak with a Dothraki army, Jon's been resurrected and left the Watch, Margaery's in the High Sparrow's good books, Dorne is controlled by the Sand Snakes, Roose is dead and Ramsay has Rickon, Balon's dead and Euron has assumed his post, Bran's learning how to time-travel in his mind. There are conclusive plotpoints arriving all over the map really early on, and even some of the mid-season episodes have some great scenes (Jaime and Edmure's scene in the tent, for example). But even if they do end up making a clumsy mess of the siege at Riverrun ("But he's my lord, my lord" / Blackfish's death) and Arya's whole thing (who was the Waif? Why was Arya suddenly No One? Is anyone ever gonna explain that?), season 6 was when the show finally embraced its potential to go for needlessly grandiose, sickeningly cheesy glory, and got it spot on. Dany burning the Dothraki church is a ginormous and baffling powerplay, the Battle of the Bastards is so fecking overblown, everything that happens with Hodor's death is utterly ridiculous, Cersei's destruction of the Sept of Baelor is another powerplay and is utterly perplexing - and yet all these big moments work so bloody well because the show embraced them all and delivered each of them with really defiant conviction. In the way that the explosion of wildfire in Blackwater thrust us into a new era of the show - that would contain stunning visual effects and giant climactic incidents - and in the way that Hardhome tested that water a little more (the first time we saw the White Walkers' true power and Miguel Sapochnik's ace direction of a battle scene), season 6 takes us that step further in basically every major plotline.
And if the trailer for season 7 is anything to go by, they're going to give us one of these gigantic/baffling powerplays (or a huge battle/fight) per episode. [Spoilers follow]. We've got the Unsullied invading Casterly Rock, the Lannisters invading Highgarden, the Dothraki and dragons fighting the Lannisters, Jon & co. facing the White Walkers, a battle involving Euron out at sea, and I'd imagine there's a huge moment coming that they've deliberately left out of the trailer (my prediction is the Wall collapsing). If season 6 was anything to go by, the show's going to head into this season with the intent to make this the largest in scale in terms of effects, collisions, chaos and drama. If they deliver it with huge, overblown conviction then I can take some sloppy dialogue and clumsy writing now and then. When season 4 ended a huge reset button was pressed on the show, with so many key characters in new places on the map, which is why it slowed down a fair bit for season 5. But at the same time a reset button was pressed on the creators too, whose vision since has taken the show in a totally new direction, one where it focused less on game-playing, betrayal and small-scale tragedies (think about it, the Red Wedding was the best moment in the show's history but it was roughly 20 people being slaughtered in one room, not 1,000 people being blown to bits by Cersei). It needed to evolve to produce what we saw in season 6 and what we're about to see in season 7, and frankly I can't wait.
Hardholm on its own made season 5 a 10/10!That's what I thought when I first saw it, but I'm really enjoying it. So many stories get further advanced like the three-eyed raven, children of the forest and the creation of the white walkers, Bran, Arya, the Hound, etc. After the overall disappointment of season 5, the 6th season was a nice rebound with a lot of stories moving forward. Maybe I need to re-watch the 5th season as well.
I think I enjoyed 4 the most, prince oberyn died way too soon
Feck me, very well put. Agree with most of what you said. Prolly everything really, just hard to imagine I can agree with everything in a post that long.
Your GoT knowledge and memory is incredible.Loved season 4. The Mountain vs Oberyn fight and Tyrion's speech in the crowded hall were the highlights for me. Hardhome really was a bright spot in an otherwise unremarkable (another word would be boring) season. Threw me off cos up to that point, the 9th episodes were known as the can't-miss episodes from a GoT season and Hardhome was the 8th episode iirc.
Hardholm was the first episode I ever watched. Was visiting a mate in Australia at the time and he was watching it so I gave it a go despite knowing nothing about the show, and I loved that episode so much that I watched season 4 back to back on the 14 hour flight back. Then I went back to the beginning and Pieced it all together.
Fecking hell, you get around Dave! Making me jealous with all the traveling you're doing.
I lived in Australia for 18 months then wound up working for a Canadian company who transferred me there, and since then I've become more entrepreneurial and thus it's easier to travel around.
GOT is the second most important part of my life though
, I actually just got 16/16 on a Facebook quiz about the showFeckin hell, this thread is exploding. Saying that, just over a feckin week to go.
Avoided reading your spoiler @RedSky. Just got a few seasons to catch up with over the weekend
Also I just learned what a shaggy dog story is. (From google): an extremely long-winded anecdote characterized by extensive narration of typically irrelevant incidents and terminated by an anticlimax or a pointless punchline.
So basically, this is Rickon right? This cant have been a co-incidence right?
Also Syrio Forel was an awesome character. We didnt see what happened to him, but we kinda know what happened. Moreso than we thought we knew what happened to Benjen.
Also Baelor might be one of the best episodes of TV ive seen. The sheer balls of it (yeah I know its based on the book, etc but still). It was so well done. I remember when it ended, I was thinking, somebody must have interfered from the execution. And well, that clearly wasnt the case
Avoided reading your spoiler @RedSky. Just got a few seasons to catch up with over the weekend
Also I just learned what a shaggy dog story is. (From google): an extremely long-winded anecdote characterized by extensive narration of typically irrelevant incidents and terminated by an anticlimax or a pointless punchline.
So basically, this is Rickon right? This cant have been a co-incidence right?
Also Syrio Forel was an awesome character. We didnt see what happened to him, but we kinda know what happened. Moreso than we thought we knew what happened to Benjen.
Also Baelor might be one of the best episodes of TV ive seen. The sheer balls of it (yeah I know its based on the book, etc but still). It was so well done. I remember when it ended, I was thinking, somebody must have interfered from the execution. And well, that clearly wasnt the case
Agreed. Was there any relation between him and the dude who worships the many-faced god? Jaquen whatever-his-name-is? They're all from Bravos, aren't they?
Yeah, Syrio was the Sword of Bravos, or something like that.
There are some characters that seem really important or at least interesting which I hope to see more of that have barely gotten a look-in; the other hot red-priestess (oh, let me speak all ominously and mysteriously and my cleavage and ... I'm gone!), Thoros of Myr who I guess is back but just a bit part role considering he can feckin' resurrect people for heaven's sake. And then Quaith(sp?) in...Qarth or Qatar or one of those quacky cities in the east, who gave prophetic insight to Dany like she was super powerful or something and then we never see her again...
Bravo, you've made a pretty good fist of highlighting the changes the show has gone through. I agree with most of it. All I would add is that I think good storytelling has been sacrificied for cheap crowd-pleasing (both fans and critics alike) gimmickry, since the books have finished.
For example female empowerment got a push - no doubt to placate those who have accused the show of misogyny. Ironically the shows female characters have never been more shallow or badly written than in season 6, but hey we live in a world where Barbie war cries trump character complexity. As for Unellas fate, well that seemed little more than liberal revenge fantasy as punishment for her slut-shaming ways - shoutouts to the twitterverse. Never mind the rape and torture, (nor the pornographic framing and celebratory tone of the scene) it's allowed if it's for our righteous cause. It's a scene that represents the creative, intellectual and moral chasm into which the show descended in season 6, followed closely by much of the fanbase( I'm only partly joking). Really hateful, thoughtless stuff.
Given what you have pointed out i'm surprised that you didn't find season 6 fecking dreadful like I did. It felt to me like bad wwf at times but without the integrity or self awareness. As you mention, the pacing is shot to shit and characters and their relationships are stripped of any internal worth, serving merely as tools for the next in a long line of checklisted plot points. Characters now only arc in the way lemmings arc off a cliff.
But I guess if you are aware of the shortcomings/changes and enjoy the show despite them or because of them, then I can't argue with that. Also the battle in season 5 episode 8, on a design level, was a step above anything in 6. 1,2,5,4,3,6.
[Quite a long post / Potential spoilers in some of this based on rumours, even for people who've seen the trailer for season 7]
I can't really disagree with much of what you're saying, to be honest, it just doesn't bother me so much.
The pace has picked up simply because we're not watching the journeys anymore - we're not watching Brienne and Jaime walking through the countryside, we're not watching Arya and Gendry with the Brotherhood, or Bran training his greensight with Jojen, or Jon living with the wildlings north of the Wall, or Daenerys taking bits of Slaver's Bay with her expanding troupe. But at the same time, I'm not entirely sure if those sorts of journeys are necessary at this point in the show. All of the travelling was employed for characterisation purposes, to learn about a character's backstory through exposition or to change their nature ever so slightly during a conversation or incident (Jaime's arc while on the road with Brienne is excellent).
Now that basically all of the main characters have had their traits and morals defined over five and a bit seasons, they're pretty much set in stone - and considering how close we are to the end, there's not much room left for manoeuvre. Say the rumours from those leaks are true, and that Jon meets Daenerys this season. What could we truly gain from watching him ride to Dragonstone with a couple of his banner-men? What could we learn about Bran and Meera's relationship that we didn't see when she was in floods of tears while dragging him through the snow away from the wights, ready to give up completely? The days of watching characters shoot the shit in order for the show to expose subtle traits aren't necessary anymore, and dreadful scenes like this one make me glad they don't bother these days - thankfully they don't have to write them because, man, they're just not good at them.
Considering we're this close to the endgame I think the pieces just have to be put into place as efficiently as possible. It's been widely speculated, and half-implied by the show runners, that they've essentially been given G.R.R.M.'s blessing to do whatever the hell they want in season 6 and 7 as long as they bring it round to G.R.R.M.'s vision by season 8. As though George has said "Well, here's point A and here's point B, you can do whatever you want to get there, just make sure you do," and allowed them to get on with it. I can't see Cersei blowing up the Sept of Baelor in the books, and I can't see Jon fighting Ramsay for Winterfell, and I can't see Daenerys quickly building an alliance with the Tyrells, Martels, Dothraki and Unsullied. Hardhome's an original idea from the show and that's the best scene in the entire thing. But if the show wants to do that, then fine, and if crowd-pleasing, bombastic set-pieces have to take us to up to season 8 then I'm happy for them to do it for a number of reasons:
- Firstly, the show and the books are two totally different pieces of art and, in some ways, we're getting one version of the story from Game of Thrones and a director's cut from A Song of Ice and Fire. If the show is no longer "true to the books" then that's fine - from day one it's shaved characters here, moved characters there, and gotten rid of entire plotpoints that aren't totally necessary, so if they want to carry on they can be my guest.
- For us to care about the good guys at the end of it all, there actually has to be some good guys left. Just as a hypothetical, I'd care far more about Jon going to war with Cersei than I would Ramsay fighting it out with her or, say, Joffrey going to war with the slave masters in Essos. As much as I love the story for punishing good characters for their own foolishness, it shouldn't be forbidden by the laws of the show to let the good guys win sometimes. All I felt when watching Joffrey, Ramsay and Walder Frey get their comeuppance was pure catharsis. When my friend watched Joffrey's death he rewound it to live it again.
- Since the end of season 4, specifically the battle for Castle Black, Game of Thrones has made a deliberate effort to become cinematic TV (hence the change of directors). The scale and size of each big incident has expanded, the directorial style has switched up - as I said, the Battle of the Bastards was hilariously overblown but it was a hugely visceral and spectacular battle that pushed back the boundaries of what TV's capable of; Cersei demolishing the sept was a ridiculous powerplay but its construction, with the escalation in the action following the escalation in Ramin Djawadi's score, was exemplary; Hodor's death was utterly nonsensical (seriously, "Hold the door!" ffs? Where the feck did they dream that up?) but the constant switching between young & older Hodor while the wights were chasing like crazy made that scene what it was.
- And lastly, the show's always done things to push the boundaries of horror, delight, sadness and elation just that step further, so I've no issue with them doing it now. In some ways it's always been a cheesy soap opera with elements of contrivance and deliberate attempts to really test the audience's feelings, it's just stopped trying to hide it because it has the budget. Ned was set for a life at the Wall but nope, his head comes off because Joffrey's a dick; Tyrion leads an army into battle twice and somehow survives being chopped across the face, Tywin wins the Blackwater battle at the last minute; the way they kill Catelyn at the Red Wedding was as if someone had forgotten to write it in, so they sent an extra on at the end to finish the deed; Oberyn is gloating about his victory just a little too close to the Mountain's "dead body" before his head is literally caved in; "Yer nor nuthin', Jon Snorr"; "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?"; Twyin's murdered while having a shit. It's always been cheesy and dumb even if it hasn't always been as over the top in delivery as it is now.
I totally appreciate where you're coming from, and I remember disliking huge aspects of season 6 when I first watched it through the first time (especially that three episode run after The Door (s6e6, s6e7, s6e8) that ends with No One - which I still think is a mess of an episode) but a couple of repeated viewings have allowed it to grow on me. Major incidents don't always equal good episodes (again, No One has to be brought up here) but if they're delivered with as much conviction as they were in season 6 I reckon we'll be in good company in season 7. I'd stick with it by the way, because if the ending's going to be in G.R.R.M.'s vision, then it's going to be a grisly and heartbreaking one for sure.
The pace has picked up simply because we're not watching the journeys anymore - we're not watching Brienne and Jaime walking through the countryside, we're not watching Arya and Gendry with the Brotherhood, or Bran training his greensight with Jojen, or Jon living with the wildlings north of the Wall, or Daenerys taking bits of Slaver's Bay with her expanding troupe. But at the same time, I'm not entirely sure if those sorts of journeys are necessary at this point in the show. All of the travelling was employed for characterisation purposes, to learn about a character's backstory through exposition or to change their nature ever so slightly during a conversation or incident (Jaime's arc while on the road with Brienne is excellent).
Now that basically all of the main characters have had their traits and morals defined over five and a bit seasons, they're pretty much set in stone - and considering how close we are to the end, there's not much room left for manoeuvre. Say the rumours from those leaks are true, and that Jon meets Daenerys this season. What could we truly gain from watching him ride to Dragonstone with a couple of his banner-men? What could we learn about Bran and Meera's relationship that we didn't see when she was in floods of tears while dragging him through the snow away from the wights, ready to give up completely? The days of watching characters shoot the shit in order for the show to expose subtle traits aren't necessary anymore, and dreadful scenes like this one make me glad they don't bother these days - thankfully they don't have to write them because, man, they're just not good at them.
Considering we're this close to the endgame I think the pieces just have to be put into place as efficiently as possible. It's been widely speculated, and half-implied by the show runners, that they've essentially been given G.R.R.M.'s blessing to do whatever the hell they want in season 6 and 7 as long as they bring it round to G.R.R.M.'s vision by season 8. As though George has said "Well, here's point A and here's point B, you can do whatever you want to get there, just make sure you do," and allowed them to get on with it. I can't see Cersei blowing up the Sept of Baelor in the books, and I can't see Jon fighting Ramsay for Winterfell, and I can't see Daenerys quickly building an alliance with the Tyrells, Martels, Dothraki and Unsullied. Hardhome's an original idea from the show and that's the best scene in the entire thing. But if the show wants to do that, then fine, and if crowd-pleasing, bombastic set-pieces have to take us to up to season 8 then I'm happy for them to do it for a number of reasons:
- Firstly, the show and the books are two totally different pieces of art and, in some ways, we're getting one version of the story from Game of Thrones and a director's cut from A Song of Ice and Fire. If the show is no longer "true to the books" then that's fine - from day one it's shaved characters here, moved characters there, and gotten rid of entire plotpoints that aren't totally necessary, so if they want to carry on they can be my guest.
- For us to care about the good guys at the end of it all, there actually has to be some good guys left. Just as a hypothetical, I'd care far more about Jon going to war with Cersei than I would Ramsay fighting it out with her or, say, Joffrey going to war with the slave masters in Essos. As much as I love the story for punishing good characters for their own foolishness, it shouldn't be forbidden by the laws of the show to let the good guys win sometimes. All I felt when watching Joffrey, Ramsay and Walder Frey get their comeuppance was pure catharsis. When my friend watched Joffrey's death he rewound it to live it again.
- Since the end of season 4, specifically the battle for Castle Black, Game of Thrones has made a deliberate effort to become cinematic TV (hence the change of directors). The scale and size of each big incident has expanded, the directorial style has switched up - as I said, the Battle of the Bastards was hilariously overblown but it was a hugely visceral and spectacular battle that pushed back the boundaries of what TV's capable of; Cersei demolishing the sept was a ridiculous powerplay but its construction, with the escalation in the action following the escalation in Ramin Djawadi's score, was exemplary; Hodor's death was utterly nonsensical (seriously, "Hold the door!" ffs? Where the feck did they dream that up?) but the constant switching between young & older Hodor while the wights were chasing like crazy made that scene what it was.
- And lastly, the show's always done things to push the boundaries of horror, delight, sadness and elation just that step further, so I've no issue with them doing it now. In some ways it's always been a cheesy soap opera with elements of contrivance and deliberate attempts to really test the audience's feelings, it's just stopped trying to hide it because it has the budget. Ned was set for a life at the Wall but nope, his head comes off because Joffrey's a dick; Tyrion leads an army into battle twice and somehow survives being chopped across the face, Tywin wins the Blackwater battle at the last minute; the way they kill Catelyn at the Red Wedding was as if someone had forgotten to write it in, so they sent an extra on at the end to finish the deed; Oberyn is gloating about his victory just a little too close to the Mountain's "dead body" before his head is literally caved in; "Yer nor nuthin', Jon Snorr"; "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?"; Twyin's murdered while having a shit. It's always been cheesy and dumb even if it hasn't always been as over the top in delivery as it is now.
I totally appreciate where you're coming from, and I remember disliking huge aspects of season 6 when I first watched it through the first time (especially that three episode run after The Door (s6e6, s6e7, s6e8) that ends with No One - which I still think is a mess of an episode) but a couple of repeated viewings have allowed it to grow on me. Major incidents don't always equal good episodes (again, No One has to be brought up here) but if they're delivered with as much conviction as they were in season 6 I reckon we'll be in good company in season 7. I'd stick with it by the way, because if the ending's going to be in G.R.R.M.'s vision, then it's going to be a grisly and heartbreaking one for sure.
I'm watching last episode of Season 5 tonight and then have 9 days to watch Season 6 (easy shit).
For all those who didn't know Sky Atlantic do a live viewing of the new season on Sunday at around 2am. So Sky Record it (less adverts), or like me... watch it live.
Also, another general comment about the pacing of the show is that in some ways it's not sped up as much as people generally think. Remember back to season one, where Tyrion goes from King's Landing, to Winterfell, to the Wall, to the Inn at the Crossroads, to the Eyrie, to the Green Fork and back to King's Landing in 10 episodes? [Continues in a spoiler box, season 7 spoilers]
If Jon goes from Winterfell to Dragonstone, to beyond the Wall, to King's Landing this season, is that any quicker or further in distance than Tyrion travelled in the early days?
I've never understood any of the comments about how quick characters move from place to place.
It's always been in the show's make-up to move characters around at speeds which are necessary for the plot.
The fastest mover is probably Littlefinger, who's been moving at the speed of light ever since season 3. He goes from King's Landing in s3e6 to The Eyrie in s3e7, to just off the coast of King's Landing in s4e2, to just off Dragonstone in s4e4, to the Eyrie again in s4e5. In s5e2 he's at the Crossroads Inn, in s5e3 he's at Moat Cailin, in s5e4 he's at Winterfell, in s5e6 he's at King's Landing again. At least in season 6 it takes him four episodes to get from King's Landing to Mole's Town.
Essentially, Westeros is huge. Travelling between places should take a long time with the transport available. The show, at times, seems to make light of this and have characters appearing in multiple locations sometimes within the same episode. Littlefinger and Varys in particular clock up the miles in record time.
I don't think this as much of an issue as some people make out. But nothing short of a detailed itinerary of a character's journey is going to be enough for them.
I understand the size of it, and how unrealistic the movements are, just never got why it bothers people when the characters pretty much teleport.
im sure these same people probably don't play grand theft auto because the cars drive around without ever being topped up with petrol.
It's a TV show, and the story lines aren't all occurring at the same time.
We've had enough shots of people pointlessly travelling from one place to another as it is.
Yes. Defo watching it live. I actually managed to get a 12 month Sky with 60% off renewal (through much calling out their bluff) pretty much for GoT live viewingI'm watching last episode of Season 5 tonight and then have 9 days to watch Season 6 (easy shit).
For all those who didn't know Sky Atlantic do a live viewing of the new season on Sunday at around 2am. So Sky Record it (less adverts), or like me... watch it live.
Great set of posts (though I skimmed some of the spoilery stuff). But yea, I was going to mention s1. Theres a lot of time skips too. Eg the Starks find the direwolves, and then a scene or two later, they are fully grown and Catelyn is saying "my they grow quickly". It only makes sense that happens to advance story especially for latter seasons where as noted, character traits have been built previously (and wont need repeats).
Your encyclopedic knowledge of the show fascinates me.It's always been in the show's make-up to move characters around at speeds which are necessary for the plot.
The fastest mover is probably Littlefinger, who's been moving at the speed of light ever since season 3. He goes from King's Landing in s3e6 to The Eyrie in s3e7, to just off the coast of King's Landing in s4e2, to just off Dragonstone in s4e4, to the Eyrie again in s4e5. In s5e2 he's at the Crossroads Inn, in s5e3 he's at Moat Cailin, in s5e4 he's at Winterfell, in s5e6 he's at King's Landing again. At least in season 6 it takes him four episodes to get from King's Landing to Mole's Town.
Can someone answer these questions for me? Even after watching through season 6 twice, I'm still unsure.
- Cersei did her walk of atonement in Season 5. So why's she gotta go to trial at the end of season 6?
- Why did Queen Marjorie bow down to the High Sparrow? Was it cos she saw the state her brother was in? She obviously wasn't buying the religious nonsense as she handed her grandmother the note.
- Why was Loras kept locked up in the dungeon while Marjorie was released? Surely, he would have agreed to whatever she did to have been released as he seemed in more worse shape than her?
1. She atoned for confessing to sleeping with Lancel, she has other things to be put on trial for I believe.
2. Always puzzled me how easily she flipped. I suspect it was part of some power play on her part organized by old lady tyrell. When she said " forget about the bloody gods for one minute" to the high sparrow it was obvious that she'd just been playing along and wasn't really buying into it.
3. Loras was to be trialled for sleeping with another man, a crime far greater than what his sister had done.
There's a superb website I use when things like this come up (https://quartermaester.info/). They're great resources.
1. Cersei was held captive for sleeping with Brother Lancel, a Lannister of course, in season 5 ("What happens when we strip away your finery?"), but she managed to strike a deal that would allow her to return to the Red Keep before her actual trial: the walk of atonement. The trial at the end of season 6 was for her various other crimes, but of course we all know why she didn't attend that one.
2. Margaery never bowed down to the High Sparrow, it was all a game to get Loras back into her hands - as evidenced by her handing Olenna the rose drawing. But in classic Game of Thrones style, her elaborate plan was foiled by someone who was just had their finger on the button, so we never got to find out her true intentions.
3. Margaery brought Tommen into the inner circle, in the High Sparrow's eyes she was already clean: "There will be no walk of atonement. Queen Margaery has already atoned for her sins by bringing another [Tommen] into the true light of the Seven." Loras just gave up, he stopped resisting and just so they'd stop torturing him.
- She confessed to sleeping with Lancel Lannister for which she did her walk of atonement. But there was also the allegation of her having sexual relationship with Jaime, which she didnt confess. Hence the trial.
- I think she was simply acting like she was repenting for her sins to get the High Sparrow to release her.
- Marjorie and Loras were accused of different crimes. Loras was guilty of engaging in homosexual relationship along with lying on oath before the Seven. Marjorie was guilty of lying on oath before the Seven.