Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[sammsky1]

I'd advise not walking around certain areas of Belfast asking people about how proud they are of being Irish..

I went to NI last year and toured the entire region with my camera, trying to absorb the pulse .... I sensed pride in Irish culture and heritage, albeit cloacked in a union jack. It felt British but of the Irish variety.

Maybe I was not in tune, but my photo's did not pick up any anti Irish Agenda, especially in Belfast. But I'll ceratinly remember your advice next time I go!

BTW: I am totally neutral regarding Irish politics.

 

[Danny1982]

Kurdistan has been all but independent since 1991 thanks to having their own military force (the Peshmerga) supported by the superpower. Baghdad hasn't been able to militarily intervene in Kurdistan since, except when invited in by one of the factions in the Kurdish civil war in the 90s. However Baghdad has promised to use all other measures available to prevent Kurdish independence - blockades, etc.

Baghdad never threatened a "blockade". They merely want to collect the revenue to pay the Kurds their salaries. And by the way, the recognized Kurdistan region in 1991 is very different from the area they held the vote in last week.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Why didn't they just let them vote, they're going to ignore the results anyway, so what difference does it make to the Government?

 

[Revan]

Definetely some scary shit will happen. BUt I am telling you, US and Europe always forgot about us, it will not be different this time.

And if we do it this way we will be deslegitimized, so they will have the excuse to clean their hands

Cleaning their hands (as in arresting the Catalan leaders and suppressing Catalan's autonomy) will only make things worse, make more separatists in Catalonia, and make other regions feel sympathy with the Catalan's cause (regions like Valencia, who share culture with Catalonia; Basque country who have separatist agenda of their own; or even Andalusia who is having serious economical problems and might just want to blame someone). Now, I think it all depends on how far Catalonians are ready to go (a lot of states can prove that you need to pay in blood for independence, and while I never thought that I will see that case scenario in 21st century Europe, who knows), and how stupid is Rajoy/Spanish government.

If things escalate, US/Europe will act in some form, but none will act if the result is just a few hundred people injured (and mostly light injuries). Remember, in case of Yugoslavian wars, US (and by extension Europe) acted only when the situation totally escalated and the number of victims reached 5 digits. Spain being a bit more democratic will mean that things won't ever go there, but obviously, Catalonians will for independence should be much higher than Madrid's will of keeping Catalonia for the independence to happen. A few weeks of unrest and a few people injured won't make Western states block the relations with Spain (or even openly condemn Spain).

 

[4bars]

I have a question for the Catalans, and the 'Madridista' as well. Is it correct to assume that this Catalan separatist movement is at least primarily motivated by past events and sentimental factors rather than actual current specific grievances?

Is very complicated. I will try to sintetize it but it will be oversimplfied

There are historical reasons, catalonia ahs their own culture, language and always fighting for power and economical power with the centralistic spanish government.

During the dictatorship, we experienced a big migration from areas from Spain, So the catalan sentiment lowered in percentage because the newcommers felt, logically spanish. As well, thre repression didnt helped and weakened the original catalan sentiment.

After the end of the dictator, it was a catalanist sentiment, mostly were ok being inside spain, specially after a repressive dictatorship was a huge improvement.

10-20 years ago mostly 20% was independentist (mostly for sentiment, cultural reasons), 20% felt spanish and the rest don´t care leaning to spain because it was a drag to change.

in 2006, looking for more autonomy inside Spain, we voted (and aproved by spanish parliament) a new statute (a mini constitution that each region has). PP made the impossible to bring it to the Constitutional Tribunal and the statute was de facto eliminated and they started to attack the old estatute.

That was the sentence in 2010. We went in a demonstration of +1 million asking for more autonomy and first chants of independence. the 60% that they didn´t care they started to be upset and they started to lean to independentism not only for that but because the crisis that we wrongly blamed to spain. So it appeared the economic independentism (it existed in the past also). at the begining catalan politicians tried to speak about fiscal pact

Instead of that they ignored us and kept attacking our institutions. from 2012 to 2017 every 11 of september (our national day) we put between 1 millon to 2.5 millon people at the streets asking for the independence. We kept asking for negociations, and pacted referendum. The answer was always the same, none.

Rajoy has an attitude that is waiting for the things to past, time heals everything. This time didnt work, and the first time that did something, did this beautiful day of today.

Meanwhile, the newcommers had kids, and grandkids, and even that they don´t speak catalan and they held their own culture, they want more and more the independence


Now there is 3 kinds of independentists:

- Sentiment/Cultural (the one that had been catalans for generations)
- Economic (mixed, catalans for many generations, newcommers and their kids)
- Pissed off (the latest events "converted" many that they can´t even say that they are inedependentist and you can see their face grimace saying that they don´t feel spanish, because they felt all their life, but they can't stand what is happening)

 

[utdalltheway]

Madrid will have to be very careful going forward. A heavy hand will most likely have the opposite effect.
Best for them to withdraw the GC and let the dust settle. They'll just declare an independent Catalonia invalid anyway.

 

[4bars]

I meant all the historical events that he showed in the previous posts.Obviously the image today are the police.A mistake from both governments.

Im such a pester, but again false equivalence. Ones with hands up, once hitting and stomping. Trump in Charlotteville

 

[4bars]

Of course I saw it, as I said before from the 2011 everytime I see the UIP gearing up I know there's going to be repression and violence, they're like rabid dogs trained to do that.

But as fight-thirsty as they are, I also have second thoughts about how anyone would react while surrounded by an hostile crowd that are there to simply prevent you for doing your work (seize referendum related stuff)

hostile crowd? hands up and saying "we are peaceful people" in 95% of cases? come on!

 

[4bars]

Madrid will have to be very careful going forward. A heavy hand will most likely have the opposite effect.
Best for them to withdraw the GC and let the dust settle. They'll just declare an independent Catalonia invalid anyway.

Smart spanish government? they did all the time the oposite that they should do. But that gives them votes so they are ok with it

 

[TheReligion]

Some of the footage is pretty awful.

Total clusterfeck.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Just a question: i have been to Seville in august 2016&2017. Everytime on 10th august some people from i guess far left celebrated something in Plaza Padre Jeronimo de Cordoba. What something about andalusian nationalism?

 

[Kentonio]

I went to NI last year and toured the entire region with my camera, trying to absorb the pulse .... I sensed pride in Irish culture and heritage, albeit cloacked in a union jack. It felt British but of the Irish variety.

Maybe I was not in tune, but my photo's did not pick up any anti Irish Agenda, especially in Belfast. But I'll ceratinly remember your advice next time I go!

BTW: I am totally neutral regarding Irish politics.

If taken as a purely non-sectarian question, then you're quite right. Like any people, the unionist Northern Irish are absolutely proud of their unique elements which come from being a part of the island of Ireland. As soon as you start talking about being Irish though in that setting, you're going to introduce the concept of Ireland as a nation state though, and in a country with a sectarian divide as deep as N.Ireland that can even today be very dangerous. Even if you yourself have no personal feelings or involvement, you're basically stepping into a potential minefield. That's what I mean by it not being a good idea.

 

[Dave89]

Hundreds of injured people

My cat must be a fascist then

If your cat can do this, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-...-video-shows-violence-as-police-tackle-voters I'd look to rehome it

 

[4bars]

Cleaning their hands (as in arresting the Catalan leaders and suppressing Catalan's autonomy) will only make things worse, make more separatists in Catalonia, and make other regions feel sympathy with the Catalan's cause (regions like Valencia, who share culture with Catalonia; Basque country who have separatist agenda of their own; or even Andalusia who is having serious economical problems and might just want to blame someone). Now, I think it all depends on how far Catalonians are ready to go (a lot of states can prove that you need to pay in blood for independence, and while I never thought that I will see that case scenario in 21st century Europe, who knows), and how stupid is Rajoy/Spanish government.

If things escalate, US/Europe will act in some form, but none will act if the result is just a few hundred people injured (and mostly light injuries). Remember, in case of Yugoslavian wars, US (and by extension Europe) acted only when the situation totally escalated and the number of victims reached 5 digits. Spain being a bit more democratic will mean that things won't ever go there, but obviously, Catalonians will for independence should be much higher than Madrid's will of keeping Catalonia for the independence to happen. A few weeks of unrest and a few people injured won't make Western states block the relations with Spain (or even openly condemn Spain).

Europe will do nothing. They declared illegal the referendum in Slovenia (and Yugoslavia was not even in the EU). They recognize it 10 days after and it was n an unestable country. The pain that Kosovo had suffered along the years to get the recognition ahd been overwhelming.

I repeat. Officially we are alone

 

[Vato]

Piquè: "I am ready to quit Spain".

Good, they are gonna replace him with Nacho

At least something good coming out of this then.

 

[Danny1982]

Is very complicated. I will try to sintetize it but it will be oversimplfied

There are historical reasons, catalonia ahs their own culture, language and always fighting for power and economical power with the centralistic spanish government.

During the dictatorship, we experienced a big migration from areas from Spain, So the catalan sentiment lowered in percentage because the newcommers felt, logically spanish. As well, thre repression didnt helped and weakened the original catalan sentiment.

After the end of the dictator, it was a catalanist sentiment, mostly were ok being inside spain, specially after a repressive dictatorship was a huge improvement.

10-20 years ago mostly 20% was independentist (mostly for sentiment, cultural reasons), 20% felt spanish and the rest don´t care leaning to spain because it was a drag to change.

in 2006, looking for more autonomy inside Spain, we voted (and aproved by spanish parliament) a new statute (a mini constitution that each region has). PP made the impossible to bring it to the Constitutional Tribunal and the statute was de facto eliminated and they started to attack the old estatute.

That was the sentence in 2010. We went in a demonstration of +1 million asking for more autonomy and first chants of independence. the 60% that they didn´t care they started to be upset and they started to lean to independentism not only for that but because the crisis that we wrongly blamed to spain. So it appeared the economic independentism (it existed in the past also). at the begining catalan politicians tried to speak about fiscal pact

Instead of that they ignored us and kept attacking our institutions. from 2012 to 2017 every 11 of september (our national day) we put between 1 millon to 2.5 millon people at the streets asking for the independence. We kept asking for negociations, and pacted referendum. The answer was always the same, none.

Rajoy has an attitude that is waiting for the things to past, time heals everything. This time didnt work, and the first time that did something, did this beautiful day of today.

Meanwhile, the newcommers had kids, and grandkids, and even that they don´t speak catalan and they held their own culture, they want more and more the independence


Now there is 3 kinds of independentists:

- Sentiment/Cultural (the one that had been catalans for generations)
- Economic (mixed, catalans for many generations, newcommers and their kids)
- Pissed off (the latest events "converted" many that they can´t even say that they are inedependentist and you can see their face grimace saying that they don´t feel spanish, because they felt or their life, but they can't stand what is happening)

Just to be clear here, I'm not trying to "belittle" your motives for independence. In my opinion everybody has the right to choose his future, and I think it would be better to respect these choices.

I'm just trying here to see if Rajoy actually could do anything to stop this, or in other words, was he really to blame, or were you going to go for this regardless (gradually)? What do you think?

 

[4bars]

agreed

 

[Javi]

Why didn't they just let them vote, they're going to ignore the results anyway, so what difference does it make to the Government?

I assume they figured that an actual referendum vote in favor of independence would be even harder to disregard from a democratic perspective.

Spanish govt. are crooks, but I find it hard to be empathetic for a nationalist movement either (not talking about police brutality ofc).

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

At least something good coming out of this then.

Yeah for sure with Nacho replacing him

 

[Ishdalar]

If your cat can do this, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-...-video-shows-violence-as-police-tackle-voters I'd look to rehome it

You should see my cat when I forget to feed him before sleeping...

But I'm not talking about the people that was savagely attacked by the police now, I'm talking about "hundreds of victims" like the one I posted, I hate how the PP and Spanish core congratulate law enforcement when they've done a barbaric job, and I also hate people trying to turn this into a full scale bloodbath when it's not true.

Can a man have his own view and express it freely?

 

[4bars]

Just to be clear here, I'm not trying to "belittle" your motives for independence. In my opinion everybody has the right to choose his future, and I think it would be better to respect these choices.

I'm just trying here to see if Rajoy actually could do anything to stop this, or in other words, was he really to blame, or were you going to go for this regardless (gradually)? What do you think?

You don´t need to be careful with me. I am quite understandable if you don´t laugh at what is happening

I am from the first kind, Rajoy could do nothing about us, but we were just 20%. Economic ones, were very easy, dont piss them off eliminating the estatute, that I repeat, was aproved by the SPANISH government (estaute that has articles that are in other estatutes and they were not bring to the tribunals and they are fully working).

And the pissed off, don´t fecking do what you did these days

Definetely could do something, I think now is too late

 

[4bars]

I assume they figured that an actual referendum vote in favor of independence would be even harder to disregard from a democratic perspective.

Spanish govt. are crooks, but I find it hard to be empathetic for a nationalist movement either (not talking about police brutality ofc).

And is fair enough and understanable

 

[Ishdalar]

Just to be clear here, I'm not trying to "belittle" your motives for independence. In my opinion everybody has the right to choose his future, and I think it would be better to respect these choices.

I'm just trying here to see if Rajoy actually could do anything to stop this, or in other words, was he really to blame, or were you going to go for this regardless (gradually)? What do you think?

Yes, he could resign and the Spanish people should choose someone that can right all the damage Rajoy and the PP have done for the last decade in the Spain-Catalunya relationship. But he's not going to do that because in Spain no one resigns

 

[4bars]

You should see my cat when I forget to feed him before sleeping...

But I'm not talking about the people that was savagely attacked by the police now, I'm talking about "hundreds of victims" like the one I posted, I hate how the PP and Spanish core congratulate law enforcement when they've done a barbaric job, and I also hate people trying to turn this into a full scale bloodbath when it's not true.

Can a man have his own view and express it freely?

Yes, but you think very little if you think international people would be upset for that images.

 

[4bars]

Yes, he could resign and the Spanish people should choose someone that can right all the damage Rajoy and the PP have done for the last decade in the Spain-Catalunya relationship. But he's not going to do that because in Spain no one resigns

True. As I said, Realistic option please

 

[sammsky1]

If taken as a purely non-sectarian question, then you're quite right. Like any people, the unionist Northern Irish are absolutely proud of their unique elements which come from being a part of the island of Ireland. As soon as you start talking about being Irish though in that setting, you're going to introduce the concept of Ireland as a nation state though, and in a country with a sectarian divide as deep as N.Ireland that can even today be very dangerous. Even if you yourself have no personal feelings or involvement, you're basically stepping into a potential minefield. That's what I mean by it not being a good idea.

Thanks for explaining!

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Then it will be a return to ancient Rome, where the ruling class spoke Greek and the lesser classes spoke Latin. (Or Russia, etc).



Or we might see a succession there too

Wouldn't go that far. Most of the children born to immigrants will most likely speak English better than Spanish. Therefore I imagine you will still English as the highest spoken language with Spanish most common as either a first or second language. Kind of how it is right now.

 

[Revan]

I find the 'blame Rajoy, not Spanish people' kind of quotes, a bit disturbing. Didn't he win something like 40% in the elections, and his party essentially won the election (i.e, a lot of Spanish feel like him). In addition, a lot of people are saying that this will only increase his popularity.

I found always the isolation of the leader from the citizens in the blaming game a bit stupid, and while it is part of the political correctness, it is false. Yeah sure, Germans were awesome, just Hitler was an arsehole. Soviets - a great bunch - but Stalin was evil. Serbs, fantastic people, only that Milosevic was bad. And so on, and so on.

The leader - more often than not, especially in a 'democracy' like Spain - are a product of the country, so blaming them entirely and absolving the people from any blame is part of the problem IMO. Leaders usually cannot hold to their agenda, if most of the people of that country do not have similar feelings for the main causes.

Now the comparisons aren't great and I went from the most extreme one who was responsible for tens of millions of deaths, to a relatively harmless idiot like Rajoy who beat a few tens (hundreds) people and give propaganda ammunition to separatists for years to come, but the point stands. While Spanish might be lovely people (I know a lot of them and they're great) in the particular issue of Catalonia, they have been dicks, and absolving the Spanish people while putting the entire blame in Rajoy is a bit hypocritical.

 

[4bars]

I find the 'blame Rajoy, not Spanish people' kind of quotes, a bit disturbing. Didn't he win something like 40% in the elections, and his party essentially won the election (i.e, a lot of Spanish feel like him). In addition, a lot of people are saying that this will only increase his popularity.

I found always the isolation of the leader from the citizens in the blaming game a bit stupid, and while it is part of the political correctness, it is false. Yeah sure, Germans were awesome, just Hitler was an arsehole. Soviets - a great bunch - but Stalin was evil. Serbs, fantastic people, only that Milosevic was bad. And so on, and so on.

The leader - more often than not, especially in a 'democracy' like Spain - are a product of the country, so blaming them entirely and absolving the people from any blame is part of the problem IMO. Leaders usually cannot hold to their agenda, if most of the people of that country do not have similar feelings for the main causes.

Now the comparisons aren't great and I went from the most extreme one who was responsible for tens of millions of deaths, to a relatively harmless idiot like Rajoy who beat a few tens (hundreds) people and give propaganda ammunition to separatists for years to come, but the point stands. While Spanish might be lovely people (I know a lot of them and they're great) in the particular issue of Catalonia, they have been dicks, and absolving the Spanish people while putting the entire blame in Rajoy is a bit hypocritical.

There is a portion to blame in Spain because as I said their are melancholic of the dicator, but mostly they are not, but as well they don´t care (normal, everybody cares about their own problems, and other problems till a certain point), and when you dont care about a problem, you are part of it.

 

[Vato]

Yeah for sure with Nacho replacing him

Wait, not sure if serious. I know this is for another thread but I need to make sure.

You think Nacho is shit?

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

I am reading about spanish communities. Basically only central Spain is loyal to Madrid. Andalucia, Galicia, Basque Country, Catalonia, Navarre and Asturias have all seen nationalist movements during the years.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Wait, not sure if serious. I know this is for another thread but I need to make sure.

You think Nacho is shit?

Not surely Piquè's level. He is just ok.

 

[Fener1907]

I find the 'blame Rajoy, not Spanish people' kind of quotes, a bit disturbing. Didn't he win something like 40% in the elections, and his party essentially won the election (i.e, a lot of Spanish feel like him). In addition, a lot of people are saying that this will only increase his popularity.

33%, 7.9 million of the 36.5 million registered to vote, well short of the seats needed for a majority, and was only given power after a bullshit move from PSOE. Might have been a better argument in the past, but PP have been on the decline for a while now.

 

[4bars]

I am reading about spanish communities. Basically only central Spain is loyal to Madrid. Andalucia, Galicia, Basque Country, Catalonia, Navarre and Asturias have all seen nationalist movements during the years.

with less (residual) to a lot (Catalonia), nobody wants to be spanish

Madrid is an artificial city that is the capital for the mere fact that is in the middle and a king decide that. Then, they dragged resource from the rest of the country along the centuries. Being spanish is fantastic for them

 

[Avatar]

May anyone explain to me why this one has been dealt with differently to 2014 ?

 

[4bars]

33%, 7.9 million of the 36.5 million registered to vote, well short of the seats needed for a majority, and was only given power after a bullshit move from PSOE. Might have been a better argument in the past, but PP have been on the decline for a while now.

after all the corruption is a big win. It amazes me tht they still have majority

 

[Revan]

I am reading about spanish communities. Basically only central Spain is loyal to Madrid. Andalucia, Galicia, Basque Country, Catalonia, Navarre and Asturias have all seen nationalist movements during the years.

They have had separatists feelings, but strangely enough, Franco came from there (as does, Rajoy).

I think only Catalonia and Basque country have really push for it though. Interestingly enough, they are the richest and most progressive parts of Spain.

 

[4bars]

May anyone explain to me why this one has been dealt with differently to 2014 ?

That one was not vinculant, had no cens, +16 could vote and I think event immigrants settled in catalonia. It was a consultation

 

[Fener1907]

after all the corruption is a big win. It amazes me tht they still have majority

The hollowest "win" you can imagine. The point is, they're far from a majority and, indeed, most Spaniards don't go along with their shit. Quoting any election numbers, to me, doesn't disprove that.

 

[4bars]

They have had separatists feelings, but strangely enough, Franco came from there (as does, Rajoy).

I think only Catalonia and Basque country have really push for it though. Interestingly enough, they are the richest and most progressive parts of Spain.

And that is because to models of state coexist (barely). Progressive like basque and Catalonia vs Conservative like Castilla and the south. It had been a constant clash. Madrid wants to control, that regions wants to handle their own businesses