VorZakone
What would Kenny G do?
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Did they improve significantly under Guardiola or were they already that good before he became Barca's coach?
It's interesting to acknowledge that Iniesta was 24 when Guardiola became coach. By normal standards one should be a relatively established player at that age.Xavi was the best player in the Euros in 2008.
You always felt watching Iniesta play that he'd be world class.
That's because Pep wasn't a fool like Rijkaard. Rijkaard played him all over the pitch including holding midfielder.It's interesting to acknowledge that Iniesta was 24 when Guardiola became coach. By normal standards one should be a relatively established player at that age.
Agreed. People always bring up Henke for turning that final but Iniesta was fantastic when he came on.Iniesta won us the 2006 CL final coming from the bench. He singlehandedly changed the game in our favor and provided the through-ball when Eto'o scored the equalizer (at 3:06).
I want to hear more on this. Did the player want away? Why didn't it happen?Xavi was nearly sold in 2008 to Milan, he would have never become the player he was without Guardiola.
It was actually Bayern he nearly joined but Guardiola convinced him to stay. Haha that looks good on paper but he wouldn't suited our fast paced counter attacking team back then. He was perfect for the tiki-taka Barcelona system.I want to hear more on this. Did the player want away? Why didn't it happen?
I disagree on the latter part. Had he come to United and teamed with Carrick and Scholes in a midfield trio behind the attacking trio of Ronaldo, Rooney, and Tevez, he'd still have hit great heights. That midfield trio would have passed opponents off the park weekly.
LinkThe Spain midfielder Xavi has been named the best player at Euro 2008 by Uefa's technical committee. The 28-year-old Barcelona midfielder, the heartbeat of his team's midfield during the tournament, was voted the Castrol player of the tournament by a nine-strong panel of Uefa's technical experts.
Link"Valdés was very good, Larsson was key... but that final was changed by Iniesta, when he came in in the second half. I could defend Van Bommel, but when Iniesta came in and started to turn around... after an hour I couldn't follow him. Iniesta killed me."
Rijkaard wasn't a fool, he had Iniesta as the 12th player with most minutes in the team when he was 21 y/o. The real problem with Iniesta is that he was great, but he had Deco and Xavi ahead of him (and people usually forget how good Deco was).That's because Pep wasn't a fool like Rijkaard. Rijkaard played him all over the pitch including holding midfielder.
The best thing Pep did for Iniesta was give him the settled position he needed rather than moving every game. There were the odd times when someone was injured that Pep played him on the left. But he was mostly played in CM for Pep.
Pretty much agree with this.They were both quality players before Guardiola came, but asking if they became "world class" after sort of misses the point. Guardiola changed the landscape of football, he made players like Xavi and Iniesta essential cogs of the team rather than talented luxury players. The before and after aren't really comparable, because players like Xavi and Iniesta were viewed very differently pre and post Guardiola in terms of their necessity in a team.
However, if you want to split hairs, then check out Xavi taking the piss out of England in 2004:
Pretty clear the quality was always there.
/threadThey were always destined be top midfielders but the clockwork like system Guardiola and Barcelona employed at the time maximized all their strengths and minimized whatever shortcoming they might have had that would have been exposed in a less synchronized and structured midfield.
Well put.They were always destined be top midfielders but the clockwork like system Guardiola and Barcelona employed at the time maximized all their strengths and minimized whatever shortcoming they might have had that would have been exposed in a less synchronized and structured midfield.
Funny that you say that as I felt Iniesta would be less affected in a different system. My reasoning is that he out of this world ability to dribble and beat players in small spaces would be useful in every system or setting. Xavi's game was more about short passes that control the tempo and maintain the rhythm which to me relies more on the movement of others around him and amount of support provided and no team supported their midfielders more than a Pep team. Unless of course I misunderstood your point completely and you actually mean Iniesta would have been even better?/thread
...in all honesty, that's 100% true about Xavi(who was already the best midfielder of the modern era next to Pirlo by the time Guardiola came around). With Iniesta, i have a nagging doubt that he could've been even more on a team that asked more of him..m
That top ten if anything proves how important Pep was. Yes Xavi was rated highly - I mean he's a starting CM for Barca.. in of itself a great achievement but look at those names rated higher. Once Pep took over Xavi shat on those guys and then preceded to join the gods.. challenging Rijkaard Matthaus and co.The Caf's view from May 2008, just before the Euros:
10 best centre midfielders in the world
Xavi was already world class and IMO the best midfielder in the world from around midway through the 2007/08 season. For him it was more about avoiding injury (which curtailed him under Rijkaard) and getting deployed in the right role. Once those two boxes were ticked he gave us 2008/09 which might just be the best season from a central midfielder ever.
Iniesta's development curve was more linear, and while he was already a burgeoning force prior to Guardiola, he continued his growth still further. His waifish build and competition for spots (who's he going to oust - Xavi, Deco or Ronaldinho?) meant it was always going to take a little time for him to fully realise his talent.
Guardiola was obviously influential in building the team around Xavi and Iniesta, recognising that their partnership was already the best thing about Barcelona in 2007/08.
Top post. Weirdly it is happening now again when our fans criticize our players in comparison to City. It's like everybody forgets just how the likes of Walker, Delph, Fernandinho, Sterling, Otamendi, Stones were rated only few months ago. Pep does need a very specific profile of players and they usually are of very high quality but likewise, no manager supports his players in terms of providing and honing a system that makes it easier to play a fast tempo passing game for his players. Once he has or buys players who have the potential to follow his coaching, they benefit greatly from what he does. It's a bit like Mourinho with warrior type defenders. He provides them with a midfield shield and full backs that help them a lot.That top ten if anything proves how important Pep was. Yes Xavi was rated highly - I mean he's a starting CM for Barca.. in of itself a great achievement but look at those names rated higher. Once Pep took over Xavi shat on those guys and then preceded to join the gods.. challenging Rijkaard Matthaus and co.
Without Pep and that tiki taka Philosophy I don't see how guys like Xavi and Iniesta become immortal. They don't really catch the eye statistically or post all time great numbers .. the emphasis on possession and the way these two were experts at destroying teams via that medium which was Peps vision, is what elevated them.
The way Pep wants football to be played has a huge impact on your central midfielders or players that play with that finesse and guile and like to keep the ball/have vision. He builds teams around these guys and makes it easier for them to operate.. because of his extreme indulgent approach to the game - it's manna to footballers like Xavi and Iniesta who would otherwise have to play in imperfect systems which doesn't quite exploit their talent to its fullest.
KDB under Pep would be a completely different animal to say if he's in our side. He would have less space to work with, less runners to find and no one really on his wavelength. You have to be a truly special player to be able to excel even if the system is against you. Some player should have that.. some don't.
Which can be seen when playing for Belgium, imo. He's one of their best players of course, but not as impressive or productive as his City self.KDB under Pep would be a completely different animal to say if he's in our side. He would have less space to work with, less runners to find and no one really on his wavelength.
Exactly! Same as a lot of that type of player actually. Pirlo and Scholes had many detractors as well because of their lack of assist and goals stats and the fact they did not have an eye catching skill like pace, power or dribbling ability.Xavi was good but had a lot of detractors. Many journos in the Catalan press wanted him out in 2008. Guardiola made him untouchable reputation-wise
This. I think Iniesta could have turned into a similar player to Zidane(similar level too) on a team that asked that of himFunny that you say that as I felt Iniesta would be less affected in a different system. My reasoning is that he out of this world ability to dribble and beat players in small spaces would be useful in every system or setting. Xavi's game was more about short passes that control the tempo and maintain the rhythm which to me relies more on the movement of others around him and amount of support provided and no team supported their midfielders more than a Pep team. Unless of course I misunderstood your point completely and you actually mean Iniesta would have been even better?
Yeah this old article sums up that whole phenomenonThey were both quality players before Guardiola came, but asking if they became "world class" after sort of misses the point. Guardiola changed the landscape of football, he made players like Xavi and Iniesta essential cogs of the team rather than talented luxury players. The before and after aren't really comparable, because players like Xavi and Iniesta were viewed very differently pre and post Guardiola in terms of their necessity in a team.
However, if you want to split hairs, then check out Xavi taking the piss out of England in 2004:
Pretty clear the quality was always there.
That was in 2004. And now – in 2010, the current European Champions at club level are led by one Pep Guardiola, who has instilled his very playing style into Barcelona. This season he has regularly played with three Guardiola-esque players in the centre of his midfield – Xavi Hernandez, Andres Iniesta and Sergio Busquets. Xavi and Iniesta also combined to make Spain the European Champions at international level. Just six years after Guardiola’s mentality was considered dead, it is now the way to play football.
It is remarkable that so much can change in such a short space of time. The biggest factor in the re-emergence of Guardiola-esque players was probably the shift away from 4-4-2 systems in the mid 2000s, towards 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 systems, both of which broadly feature three central midfielders. This meant that there was an extra midfield place available, and the destroyer-creator model was altered to include a ‘passer’ inbetween. Hence Liverpool’s brilliant near-title winning trio of Mascherano (destroyer) Alonso (passer) Gerrard (creator), for example.
But perhaps there has been a further shift – the mid 2000s obsession with deploying a player in the ‘Makelele role’ largely led to the decline of the creator as a traditional number 10 (as he was marked out of the game) – and that in turn caused the lessening importance of the Makelele role itself (since he then had no-one to mark). Therefore, the ‘creator’ now plays a deeper, more methodical passing game – hence Cesc Fabregas or Andres Iniesta playing as players at the head of a midfield three – whilst the ‘holding’ midfielder has also moved away from being a tackler, to becoming a passer himself – with Busquets and Michael Carrick amongst the beneficiaries. And suddenly, the midfield battle is not about being ‘physical’ or ‘ball-winning’ – it is all about passing, as epitomised by the current Barcelona sides.
Euro 2008 was before Pep managed Barca.If you told people that Xavi was going to be player of the tournament in 08 they'd have been shocked, good player, nothing special. Iniesta was very talented but seemed to be played here, there and everywhere. After Pep though they were something else. The fact is, his system just makes players better, all their players seemed to go up a level.