If creating the platform for Pep was having a scattergun approach to the transfer market for years before he arrived then yeah he's a real visionary.
It has happened under every manager since Fergie left...
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I’m not asking for some coordinated, sophisticated, tactical, trendy pressing game, just a bit of urgency to win the ball back and pin the opposition in the last ten minutes of a home game.
The players need to get a grip if they’re feeling demotivated. Have they really got it so bad? The more I think about it, I can totally see why Mourinho is frustrated with his lot – our players are mentally soft.
They'd been laying the foundations for Pep's arrival for years, the players might not have all been perfect for him when he arrived, but I don't really see how anyone can deny that City had been working on getting him for a long time.
Nothing special.
We are a big club with a very average team.
There’s probably around ten sides in Europe better than us and a good bunch on the same sort of level.
City have shown real vision, while we have stumbled around like a blind, drunk person.
These days urgency is not enough.. as teams will just pass it round hap hazard attempts to win the ball with unorganised pressing.
Secondly, I would argue Jose constantly citing refs and lack of funds, the attempt to manufacture an argument post City game.. these are signs of mental frailties. He isn't the secure manager of yesteryear - he doesn't have the same mental toughness and his eyes tell me he's in the mood to quit already. He doesn't have the same sharpness of mind.
Good point. Wish LVG had his way when he seemingly wanted Keane as his assistant. Would have been a good way to introduce the new players to United and let them know what playing for the shirt means.Cos all of our manager since have gone on about what a ‘nice group of lads’ we have rather than be ruthless like SAF sending Beckham and Rooney to stands for biggest games. Selling players out of line no matter how big. Even having likes of Keane literally screaming at own players on the pitch. Miss the good ol’ days. All so mellow now.
Partly true to a certain extent I think, but we're still a draw, we've got capable players, who should be doing much better than they are.
I don’t disagree with your second point. I worry that Mourinho’s heart isn’t in it. Everything he’s been saying about team investment points to him feeling as though he’s not fighting Pep on an equal footing.
We’ll be starting back from square one soon enough.
I never said they didn't want him as manager but the idea that the city Dofs have done some amazing job in the transfer market is nonsense. Do you really think Mourinho would have bought RSC, Jo, Robinho, Bony, Jovetic, Garcia, Bravo, Nolito, Navas, Sinclair, Mangala, Fernando, Nastasic, Rodwell and the been praised?
I’m sure we are still quite attractive. That said, is it a given that we can just waltz in and take the manager of, say, Spurs? Nah, I don’t think it’s so cut and dried.
Nah.....get rid of the players. Lingard(for instance) makes £100k/week. If he needs the manager’s hugs before he can perform then he doesn’t deserve to wear the red shirt. The Man Utd badge should mean a lot - there are many top quality players in the world that would kill to get just 5 minutes to play for that club.
Only 7 of the players in the squad are Jose’s purchases and I am sure left to him, he wouldn’t have bought close to 15 players in the squad. He’s regularly complained that many of the players melt under any kind of pressure and they cannot keep a winning mentality going on for a long time.
Fergie bought players that won 3 league titles in a row - I really don’t think majority of the players in our current squad are capable of such feats. It’s in their head - the years of perennial failure in the league has screwed up their confidence. There’s no real belief in them that they can win the league title. The performance yesterday(especially in the 2nd half) was a monumental disgrace.
A good number of those players were part of City’s recruitment when the Arabs first took over and not relevant to the work that has been done as part of the Pep project.
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The dof signed them and the posts I'm responding to are ones calling for us to use the same sort of model. The vast majority of clubs simply can't afford to have the amount of flops that City have had as they don't have finances to constantly replace anyone whose not good enough. The Dof model is full of flaws that can't be ignored.
To be honest, I was referring to the 80s. I mean he wasn't always successful between 1986 and 2013.
That said, it doesn't make sense to compare both.
You get the whole picture.
Manchester City made big acquisitions during 10 consecutive years against 3-4 for United.
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Most clubs have the same type of record, you would be lucky to have a 50% success rate on transfers.
Edit: Also it's worth mentioning that Txiki joined in 2012.
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Robinho signed for City in 2008.
Go and have a look at the sort of purchases United were making around that period.
A multitude of factors are working against us, including some already mentioned above
-Constant changes of playing styles (with changes of manager) that don't fit with the club's/fans' expectations resulting in wasted transfer dealings and, after a few bad results, fans quickly turning on players and managers alike
-Players and managers being unable to handle the huge expectations that simply aren't there in the same way with the likes of City, Chelsea and Spurs. This manifests itself in players seemingly underperforming and managers playing the blame game
-The injury record and our apparent inability to field a settled side (which we at least expected under Mou) and, in particular, a settled CB pairing a la Bruce/Pallister and Vidic/Ferdinand pairings
-Failure to strengthen in the positions we most needed to strengthen in (look what Pep did in the Summer to deal with his ageing full backs)
-Getting footballing basics wrong such as players being played out of position (under LVG), poor in-game management (lack of on-the-pitch leaders) and failure to capitalise on turnarounds (not hitting teams on the break being my personal biggest frustration since LVG)
-The loss of our fear factor since Moyes, compounded by our predictability under LVG and Mou
-Not following my personal favourite SAF transfer tactic of buying a close rival's best striker
-Constant changes of playing styles (with changes of manager) that don't fit with the club's/fans' expectations resulting in wasted transfer dealings and, after a few bad results, fans quickly turning on players and managers alike
-Players and managers being unable to handle the huge expectations that simply aren't there in the same way with the likes of City, Chelsea and Spurs. This manifests itself in players seemingly underperforming and managers playing the blame game
-The injury record and our apparent inability to field a settled side (which we at least expected under Mou) and, in particular, a settled CB pairing a la Bruce/Pallister and Vidic/Ferdinand pairings
-Failure to strengthen in the positions we most needed to strengthen in (look what Pep did in the Summer to deal with his ageing full backs)
-Getting footballing basics wrong such as players being played out of position (under LVG), poor in-game management (lack of on-the-pitch leaders) and failure to capitalise on turnarounds (not hitting teams on the break being my personal biggest frustration since LVG)
-The loss of our fear factor since Moyes, compounded by our predictability under LVG and Mou
-Not following my personal favourite SAF transfer tactic of buying a close rival's best striker
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Aguero, Silva, Kompany and KDB were also signed before Pep arrived, are they also not relevant to his project or does he continue to get all the credit?
You and me both pal. I’ve had some right abuse on here for saying the squad is bang average but there are some that think it could win the league.
I’d keep about 5 players if I could shift them all on tomorrow and replace them.
It's clear that the big difference between a SAF team and the others is.....the strength on the wings.
Cristiano Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Kanchelskis....were dominant players on the wings: different players from each other but pure specialists.
Cristiano Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Kanchelskis....were dominant players on the wings: different players from each other but pure specialists.
Yeah exactly in one we were on a massive barren run and the other we were recently one of the most successful teams in the world
I wouldn't say its a given, but I still think we could get most managers around quite easily. For how much longer that'll be true is another question. If Jose leaves and we end up in the same hapless mess with the next bloke, we might start seeing managers and players thinking a lot more carefully about coming our way.
So how does any Premiership manager deal with his motley collection of petulant snowflakes when things aren't going their way and they decide to down tools? Just what is the solution? Where are those hairdryer branding coach/managers who can kick ass and fling boots in the dressing room?
The only current PL manager at the moment who has this reputation is Big Sam. Not suggesting for one moment that he would ever be considered a candidate but how would he deal with our pussies? Almost five years down the line, would even Sir Alex struggle nowadays with the rise and rise and rise of player power?
So we sack Mou, bring in another manager and it's rinse and repeat for another two years and the complacency becomes even more entrenched.
The only current PL manager at the moment who has this reputation is Big Sam. Not suggesting for one moment that he would ever be considered a candidate but how would he deal with our pussies? Almost five years down the line, would even Sir Alex struggle nowadays with the rise and rise and rise of player power?
So we sack Mou, bring in another manager and it's rinse and repeat for another two years and the complacency becomes even more entrenched.
Ecstatic never fails on the research front
Ecstatic never fails on the research front
They weren’t exactly queuing up when Fergie retired.
It couldn't be that this has happened under every manager since... Time began. We had the same comments 03-06. In fact we had the same comments after we parked the bus against City, lost 1-0 and effectively lost the title.
The main difference is we have more fans nowadays who seem to find solace in emulating the dramatics of an architypal 16 year old girl. Although in truth that's possibly a bit sexist towards the female teenager.
The main difference is we have more fans nowadays who seem to find solace in emulating the dramatics of an architypal 16 year old girl. Although in truth that's possibly a bit sexist towards the female teenager.
No, the manager likes safe, cautious football. He thinks as long as we keep it tight we'll make one chance to win the game 1-0. So the players jog around, because they've been told to
Under SAF we'd have bought Harry Kane a couple years ago no doubt.
We have spent 80m less in transfers than them, while paying more in wages since Fergie retired.
This 'City are doing great just cause they spent, unlike poor us' needs to stop. It is embarrassing and factually incorrect. The difference is that they had a plan, while we just tried to buy our ticket from mediocrity by just spending.
That's a total misnomer. 15-20% of City's salary the last 4 years has been transferred to their holding company. United's salary bill would be much lower too if the only staff on our wage bill were playing staff.
And what about the years when Fergie was in charge and City signed Aguero/Silva/Yaya/Kompany etc? We had a much more urgent need to spend money given the squad and yet they've still out spent us. I'd love to know what the plan was in signing Balotelli/Jovetic/Robinho/Cruz/Jo/Nolito/Navas/Mangala/Garcia/Fernando/Bony/Sinclair/Rodwell/Bravo. Maybe you could enlighten me?
The difference with City is when they spend a massive amount of money on someone who turns out to be a dud they just write off the loss and go splash uber millions on someone else until eventually you get yourself KDB/Silva/Aguero/Sterling/Sane etc. Clubs like Liverpool/ Arsenal and Spurs have to live with Mignolet/Sissoko/Jansen/Xhaka/Lamela and make the best of it. There's no plan or genuis to what City are doing they just keep spending until they get it right.
Pochettino would jump at the chance to manage United ffs. I see that you’re really getting into self-loathing after our recent woes but it’s fecking bonkers to deny the appeal of managing one of the biggest/wealthiest clubs in the world. I doubt many rival fans (other than Glastonspaz) would come out with shite like that, which makes it all the stranger to hear it from a United fan. Wtf?
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While some amount of blame could lie on Jose's shoulders, I don't buy into the players being blameless like many have implied on here before. For all we know they're a spineless bunch that are next to impossible to motivate. We know there's a serious lack of players that impose themselves on games consistently. It's on Jose to bring in players that fit better though.
The gap in terms of financial strength really matters in the long run.
That said, you're right to say there are other factors.
Pastore and Lucas Moura are on the bench in Paris: they would be much more useful at United, especially a playmaker like Pastore.
Regardless of the manager, if the players are difficult to motivate for any reason then they shouldn't be at the football club.
I'm not sure effort is the problem quite as much as tactics is, but one thing I will add is that it doesn't help for the players' morale to hear comments from Jose questioning the quality of the squad, and the need to spend more money. It's just not good on an individual level, but collectively too.
I've no doubt someone will counter with that players shouldn't be so delicate and that they get paid obscene amounts, but the thing is, I completely agree with that. I'm not justifying their behaviour, if they are putting less than maximal effort in. In my opinion, if nothing else then you should at least play to your max for the fans who pay their money and give up their time to come and watch. Instead I'm making an observation as to what I believe to the case. It's not something I'd want to hear from my boss, but unlike the players I'd have little choice but to get on with it and improve. The players are spoilt, we all know that.
Again, in the event they're not trying their best then this is the 3rd manager in a row that it's happened to, as the OP alludes to. If enough players turn then it's only going to end one way for Jose and seeing as it's far easier to replace a manager than a squad, we all know what that outcome would be. Jose is the one who has to make the changes, but I fear he is too stuck in his ways to do so. If it's just a handful of players then I guess we just need to show patience as Jose weeds them out. It's hard to tell though from an outsiders perspective.
I've no doubt someone will counter with that players shouldn't be so delicate and that they get paid obscene amounts, but the thing is, I completely agree with that. I'm not justifying their behaviour, if they are putting less than maximal effort in. In my opinion, if nothing else then you should at least play to your max for the fans who pay their money and give up their time to come and watch. Instead I'm making an observation as to what I believe to the case. It's not something I'd want to hear from my boss, but unlike the players I'd have little choice but to get on with it and improve. The players are spoilt, we all know that.
Again, in the event they're not trying their best then this is the 3rd manager in a row that it's happened to, as the OP alludes to. If enough players turn then it's only going to end one way for Jose and seeing as it's far easier to replace a manager than a squad, we all know what that outcome would be. Jose is the one who has to make the changes, but I fear he is too stuck in his ways to do so. If it's just a handful of players then I guess we just need to show patience as Jose weeds them out. It's hard to tell though from an outsiders perspective.