I'm assuming you agree with my point and extending it.
Yeah, Napoli are good example, players play compact game and attack as a team. Same with Barca before and even Madrid. All teams played with 3 midfielders.
We will never win the league with Paul Pogba in the team
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Yeah, Napoli are good example, players play compact game and attack as a team. Same with Barca before and even Madrid. All teams played with 3 midfielders.
And what happened with Real is a great parallel. They played Modric-Kroos in a double pivot for a while they were both good but, neither of them looked at their best. They add Casemiro start playing 4-3-3 and suddenly they have the best midfield in the World. The idea that every midfielder should be just as good in every type of setup is silly.
Exactly. If that Madrid thing didn't teach us anything, then nothing will. It's not even from very past history, just from 3-4 seasons ago.
We'll never win the league with Pogba in a 2 man midfield.
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Actually...we've never looked as good in the last 15 years as when we played the kroos-modric-isco-james midfield with ancelotti. Pity it was cut short by injuries...
Btw, you might also be interested to know that Pogba was one of the best big game players around at juventus
I dont't know what Mourinho's doing to him...
This is what I remember too, then again Jose sets up team very deep and defensively which makes defenders to shine more than attack oriented players.Actually...we've never looked as good in the last 15 years as when we played the kroos-modric-isco-james midfield with ancelotti. Pity it was cut short by injuries...
Btw, you might also be interested to know that Pogba was one of the best big game players around at juventus
I dont't know what Mourinho's doing to him...
Thread title is nonesense, but something isn’t right with him. Looks a shell of the player he can be the last few games.
Jose’s pretty infamous for making players play through pain barriers, Matic was doing it earlier this season. I wonder if he’s demanding the same from Pogba now?
Jose’s pretty infamous for making players play through pain barriers, Matic was doing it earlier this season. I wonder if he’s demanding the same from Pogba now?
Martial Lukaku Sanchez
Pogba Matic Herrera
a bit too obvious for jose?
Pogba Matic Herrera
a bit too obvious for jose?
It's not a nonsense though is it? It is not a "baseless accusation"...this version of Pogba at Juventus, in this magical lazy left midfield position where he had no positional responsibility or onus on him to play in order to help his team, has only come into existence on redcafe, since it became necessary to invent excuses for why Pogba can't put a shift in for us in midfield.
Yet we've already heard from people in this thread who have rubbished that by saying that when Pogba played well for Juventus, he in fact DID have to put a shift in defensively and by showing defensive and positional discipline. In other words, he had to do what he doesn't very often do for us.
People have invented a role that never existed in order to claim the reason Pogba goes missing or can't act like a professional footballer in games, is because we aren't playing him in it. Somehow Pogba's lack of ability to stay in a position, or show any responsibility for his team or team mates, isn't his fault. It's everyone else's fault. It's because we don't have the same players as Juventus, and because we don't play him in exactly the same role as he played at Juventus. A role that actually, based on any even slightly realistic viewpoint, would still require him to do the things he doesn't bother doing for us anyway, if it was going to work.
The reason I'm calling it up as nonsense is because it is nonsense. It comes from the land of fantasy.
If we got to the end of the game against Spurs for example, and lost, but Pogba had put in a good performance in the role he had been given, then you could argue "well he isn't being played to his strengths"...or even if he'd been the worst player on the pitch, but worked hard and TRIED to put in a performance to help the team, you could still make this argument...but that isn't what happens is it? What happens is he has to be subbed off because he is deliberately not helping his team and then even when the manager specifically tells him to, he doesn't listen. At this point his performance becomes indefensible to any reasonable person. He becomes one of the reason why the team is losing the game, because he isn't prepared to help the team.
So we are reinventing the wheel again here. By this logic you can't put any good player in a team of players they are better than, because they wont play like a good player anymore. In which case, how is there even such a thing as good players, when they are apparently all completely reliant on playing with other good players in order to actually be good?
Bale and Modric were clearly better than their team mates. Ronaldo was clearly better than his team mates for us. Scholes was clearly better than Carrick, Fletcher, Gibson, John O'fecking Shea...whoever you put next to him. Cante was one of the best players in the league playing alongside Danny Drinkwater...and then again playing alongside Matic.
How many actual great players are there, who play with the lack of responsibility and professionalism that Paul Pogba does? There's been plenty of extremely talented players who have...and Pogba is certainly very talented. The ones that end up actually being world class, get there, because they have the mentality of a world class player. Not because they danced in a video with Stormzy once and have a racing stripe in their hair, but then go missing as soon as some hard work or sacrifice is required in a game.
I'm not pretending anything of the sort. There's the odd good performance this season, but it's exactly that, and it's always against teams like Everton, who a few weeks later are 4-0 down after 30 minutes to the 6th place team.
Pogba has had one good run of form for us, which was in the build up to Christmas last season...and the thing that makes this whole argument so silly, beyond anything else, is that during this spell, he mostly played in a midfield two...and it coincided with him actually working hard, and showing the kind of discipline and responsibility he so often lacks. So he proved then that actually, he CAN do it, IF he is prepared to put the work in and make the sacrifice. The world where he becomes a world class player without doing this is the same one where Arsenal win the Champions League without changing their style of play.
While I think Pogba should be perfectly capable of playing in a midfield 2, I am quite sure that Jose sees his formation at both Spurs and Newcastle as a midfield 3. Lingard is the third member of that midfield 3 and the system alternates throughout the game, sometimes with Lingard in advance of Matic and Pogba but often with Lingard right of the 3 and Pogba left.
Jose clearly doesn't want him to play in a genuine 2 because each time he moves Sanchez (a forward) into the number 10 role he also takes Pogba off and replaces him with a more conventional midfield player.
Jose clearly doesn't want him to play in a genuine 2 because each time he moves Sanchez (a forward) into the number 10 role he also takes Pogba off and replaces him with a more conventional midfield player.
Juventus generally did the same, didn't stop him from being great most of the time. I mean look at his performance in munich in '16, he was about the only juventus player who didn't look overwhelmed against bayern in '13(in fact, if anything he made javi martinez look not so good), he was great both games against us in the group stage, following season he came up with the goods when the team needed it even without playing particularly well(goal vs olympiakos, assistvs dortmund, "assist" at the bernabeu, half-fit)...
And he was Napoli's nightmare, and juventus defended a lot against them
I have seen Juventus games against Bayern and how they set up is completely different from how Jose sets up at ManUtd. Just defend deep and no hope of attacking, compare that to Juventus team who should have won against Bayern when they went 2-0 ahead and kept on creating chances on counter with Morata and Pogba running riot.
Not sure what you're proving by saying that. At the end of the day, he was a midfielder and Rafael was not. And Park was still horrible in that season from aging. And that was part of the reason why he lost faith in getting minutes with United along with bringing back old Scholes.
And no, Fergie shouldn't have bowed down to the demands of an 18 year old, but we should have proven to him or rather given him enough so that he could believe he would be getting minutes next season.
Sometimes i just think he is not involved enough. Some players need the ball all the time to shine. We should bring another midfielder, can be Herrera, and give Pogba a free role to attack.
Perfect example really. Especially considering what an enviable attacking setup they had. It's all about balance
Pretty apt. It failed against a good team in Spurs and now a struggling team in Newcastle. Hopefully that's that.
We will never win the league with Pogba in a 2 man midfield.Play him on the left of a 3,and he"ll set the league on fire....I honestly thought that the main reason why we were sticking to 4-2-3-1 was because we didn't have a world class wide forward who could take us to the next level.But after we signed Sanchez I just assumed that we would switch to a 4-3-3,I"m stunned that Jose keeps sticking to a formation that simply cannot bring the best out if a Pogba...
You make football sound so complicated, yet there are less talented, less physically dominant players at all levels that play perfectly fine in CM. It's not a hard task, but Pogba makes it hard by playing like an absolute idiot at times. I'd rather not enable this idea that we will just free him to do whatever the feck he wants in some niche AM/LAW role.
If I thought Pogba had genuinely given it his best shot to try and become what the team needs, rather than what he wants to be, then I'd perhaps say that we either try building a midfield to suit or he may have to go elsewhere. But I've seen enough from Pogba to know this isn't the case.
Ok he may have been big at the age (u18) group when he played well in a CM role, but he's even bigger now. It's not that though, I can see that it's in his head, he decides to try and do everything and finishes up doing not a lot. It's down to coaching, experience/maturity on Pogbas part and just a genuine willingness to play as asked. We shouldn't have to play a 3 man midfield to avoid getting rolled over by one of the worst teams in the PL.
That's even more depressing to know.
Okay so what was up with his ''defending' for Newcastle? I mean what on earth was be doing?
Sometimes he strikes me as a panicker. Easily rattled and lacking composure in either box. Then I'm faced with his achievements with Juve and it's even more confusing.
Sometimes he strikes me as a panicker. Easily rattled and lacking composure in either box. Then I'm faced with his achievements with Juve and it's even more confusing.
What I am trying to say? As it's on the label, bud. Pretty simple. The whole argument that has been put in his favor is that he is not a midfielder that is why he needs to play in an attacking position, freed from all the midfield responsibilities.
He was getting opportunities from the bench that season as most 18 year old get. It's not as if he was frozen out or anything. If one game made up his mind, then God help us with his impatience and impetuousness. Old Scholes was brought in for a reason: Paul wasn't ready and Scholsey looked like the best available option then. Sir Alex was proven right too as we went on a winning streak and should have won the title with ease if not for a bottle job from the collective unit.
What is really depressing about this thread is the confirmation of the rise of the individual. Many posters on here would rather anyone else be dropped from the team to allow a 'baby' to play with his toys, even sack the manager because he won't let this 'baby' do what he wants.
These people should stop convincing themselves they support United, the football club, the TEAM, and go away and play with their X boxes or whatever and droool over their wonderful 'baby'.
These people should stop convincing themselves they support United, the football club, the TEAM, and go away and play with their X boxes or whatever and droool over their wonderful 'baby'.
Or maybe posters want more balance to the team.
Both are possible - to treat Pogbas performances as unacceptable and also want more balance.
Too many want to absolve Pogba completely it seems. Both him and Jose deserve flack.
Isn’t that what McTominay just tries to do but gets slammed for not being good enough?
I don't think it's 'making excuses' to say that we don't use Pogba effectively.
Frank Lampard was a fantastic player in front of Makelele and Essien for Chelsea, not so good for England in a midfield two
Paul Scholes is considered by many to be the best midfielder of his generation, never pulled up any trees deployed wide left of a diamond for England or Utd during the Veron years
Steven Gerrard was fantastic as an AMR or behind the striker for Liverpool but was half the player in the deep-lying role for club and country
There a definitely things Pogba can do to improve. Needs to show more drive, more energy, maybe put a tackle in from time to time etc....however I am still a firm believer that it's pointless buying a player with all of Pogba's talents and then try to make them something that they are not.
Frank Lampard was a fantastic player in front of Makelele and Essien for Chelsea, not so good for England in a midfield two
Paul Scholes is considered by many to be the best midfielder of his generation, never pulled up any trees deployed wide left of a diamond for England or Utd during the Veron years
Steven Gerrard was fantastic as an AMR or behind the striker for Liverpool but was half the player in the deep-lying role for club and country
There a definitely things Pogba can do to improve. Needs to show more drive, more energy, maybe put a tackle in from time to time etc....however I am still a firm believer that it's pointless buying a player with all of Pogba's talents and then try to make them something that they are not.
Probably the most unfairly vilified player I can remember. Seems any points we drop he’s automatically to blame.
Embarrassing.
Embarrassing.
Saying Pogba was a luxury player at Juventus is a lie.
In his last season, to the left in a solid midfield trio with Marchisio and Khedira, he produced 20 goals+assists in the Serie A. At least half of those were decisive and Juventus would not have won the league were it not for the joint creativity of Dybala and Pogba. Both rightfully ended up in the Serie Team of the Year.
In his last season, to the left in a solid midfield trio with Marchisio and Khedira, he produced 20 goals+assists in the Serie A. At least half of those were decisive and Juventus would not have won the league were it not for the joint creativity of Dybala and Pogba. Both rightfully ended up in the Serie Team of the Year.
Just when I thought we’d solved the Pogba ‘problem’ we revert back to playing him in a midfield 2. Seems at the minute we’re trying to get all the best players on the pitch and hoping it’ll click rather than playing players in there favoured positions.
He's a player that showed domestically and in Europe against some of the biggest teams in the game that not only could he put a shift in defensively but also could hurt them via his attacking capabilities. Mourinho is failing where Conte and Allegri excelled regards bringing the best out of Pogba..
We also have a issue where it seems some of our fans seem to think a footballer only begins his career when he turns up in the EPL.
We need to start a petition against Mou. Give Pogba his safe space, impossible for him to work when he is expected to do a job for the team.
Honestly?? the love in for Pogba up until lately has been most evident.
Health and safety legislation could support his case. If it is specified that it takes a minimum of 3 men for the job then it can't be completed by 2 and any worker is entitled to down tools.....a bit like he did yesterday
And also that performance in another league is always transferable.He's a player that showed domestically and in Europe against some of the biggest teams in the game that not only could he put a shift in defensively but also could hurt them via his attacking capabilities. Mourinho is failing where Conte and Allegri excelled regards bringing the best out of Pogba..
We also have a issue where it seems some of our fans seem to think a footballer only begins his career when he turns up in the EPL.
Pogba is the absolute least of our worries when we still have to play Smalling and Jones.
Needs 2 world class players with him to combat the evil force of Jonjo Shelvy. Maybe he really is Voldemort.
What about his performances in the UCL against Bayern and Madrid, are they transferable?
Not on current form this season they aren't.
This.
It happened last year as well. We played Fellaini as the holder, got mullered by City then played Carrick-Herrera-Pogba and went on a winning streak. It's so simple, play a midfield that complements everyone in it and you'll be fine. Kante and Bakayoko as a midfield is too open as they are both players that like to run around and hunt for the ball, but when Chelsea played Kante, Bakayoko and Fabregas they were a lot better.
But he's shown against the very best teams in the world that he can excell at a young age.
Or maybe Mourinho doesn't know how best to utilise him? Or is that me making excuses for him?
The midfield 2 isn't helping but he just allows people to stroll past him. A player could walk into our goal with Pogba around and he wouldn't once think to put in a tackle. This level of ballwatching has been a problem and we need him to stop ballwatching regardless where he plays.
There are reasons to be dissatisfied Jose but telling his midfielder to stop switching off isn't one of them
There are reasons to be dissatisfied Jose but telling his midfielder to stop switching off isn't one of them
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