Not when its stated as fact:
"It would have been better if an incredibly significant movie was also an incredibly good movie. It's not."
Along with that. opinions can be wrong.
Film Black Panther
- Thread starter bucky
- Start date
"It would have been better if an incredibly significant movie was also an incredibly good movie. It's not."
Along with that. opinions can be wrong.
Don't be obtuse.
Genuine question Dante - what kind of quality are you looking for here, for something of this genre (or this franchise)? Not being glib, just wondering what your benchmark is.
A film that, 20 years from now, will be held in the same kind of regard as The Dark Knight.
From a film history point of view, TBP is one of the biggest movies of the last few decades. In terms of quality, it would struggle to break into the top 100.
Not a bad movie, at all. I just wish it could have been good enough to match its cultural significance.
Except, you said:
But I can't help but feel a little bit bad that all of this fanfare is being attached to such an underwhelming film.
Except that's not the general consensus, nor is it my opinion.
when people look back at this movie for what it achieved, they'll be disappointed with it from an artisitic perspective.
Again, you do realise youre in the minority right and there are a number of people who think its a great movie, with great villains, motivations, etc, right?
That's their subjective opinion and in your world, subjective opinions aren't allowed.
By the way, why haven't you stated that your post is just an opinion? You're making it sound like fact.
because mine isnt an opinion
This is a marvel superhero movie. It is a movie that celebrated a culture andapeople that don't get to be celebrated. That enhances the movie and its supposed to. The movie will have an impact on cinema and people for generations because it is the first bigbbudget movie to promote black people and African culture. That is huge and it managed to do in whilst creating a very good marvel superhero movie. That makes the movie even better and allowed a whole community of people enjoy a superhero movie. My grandma who is African managed to enjoy a superhero movie for the first time only due to the context it was filmed in. She hated avengers and guardians. This Is a movie that will be talked about for generations.
Which is why I also want it to be a great movie.
I think that's simultaneously fair enough as a POV and an incredibly high bar to clear
And possibly one that I think any potential Marvel film would struggle to hit. But yeah I get what you mean in the sense it could end up a zeitgeist film that fades from memory in time (though I hope it won't, because I hold Killmonger in particular in high regard).In the context of what it is. It is a great movie. It's one of the best marvel movies and that is great.
Then maybe the mantle of being the most important movie of the last few years was too big to have been carried by a movie that requires a context to be judged as great.
Something I don't understand.
I get its significance for black people...but I don't understand the Wakanda forever stuff for example that Pogba tweeted. It's a fictional country. There's got to be better slogans for black culture/pride than a fictional country.
I get its significance for black people. I actually thought it was equally great for how much screen time women got.
I get its significance for black people...but I don't understand the Wakanda forever stuff for example that Pogba tweeted. It's a fictional country. There's got to be better slogans for black culture/pride than a fictional country.
I get its significance for black people. I actually thought it was equally great for how much screen time women got.
700million in 2 weeks.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/25/movies/black-panther-700-million-globally-box-office.html
1 billion within a month?
I agree on the women, that was my favourite part - just showing a wide depth of representation for black women especially.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/25/movies/black-panther-700-million-globally-box-office.html
1 billion within a month?
Are black people not allowed to celebrate fiction too?
I agree on the women, that was my favourite part - just showing a wide depth of representation for black women especially.
Because there are black people all over the world from different cultures and as a race we are very divided. There isn't a universal idea or concept we can all get behind. Everyone is very patriotic and so you dont have for example Nigerians celebrating the success of French immigrants in football. So a fictional country is an opportunity for every black person to get behind.
From a theatrical pov, it's a competently made, by-the-book Marvel flick. Protagonist finding his way after a personal tragedy, bested initially by the main villain then eventually triumphed, fighting over/with the same tech ( read. Iron Man, Incred Hulk, Ant Man, Dr. Strange. I left the film fairly satisfied, not much to criticise but honestly not much to praise either. Action sequences are nothing that we haven't seen before, same type of humour, same type of unnecessary Stan Lee cameo ( yes, yes, contractually stipulated).
From a cultural pov, I can certainly appreciate that it is huge for black people in general and it's a bit niche that way. My cousin who is a superhero films enthusiast (not a comic book nerd or anything) didn't quite get the cultural significance of it, so he told me he felt it was lacking, and I think that viewpoint wouldnt be too uncommon, was made by some in this thread too.
All in all strictly in the MCU, I'd put it at about 6.5/10. Same score as Dr.Strange or Ant Man.
From a cultural pov, I can certainly appreciate that it is huge for black people in general and it's a bit niche that way. My cousin who is a superhero films enthusiast (not a comic book nerd or anything) didn't quite get the cultural significance of it, so he told me he felt it was lacking, and I think that viewpoint wouldnt be too uncommon, was made by some in this thread too.
All in all strictly in the MCU, I'd put it at about 6.5/10. Same score as Dr.Strange or Ant Man.
A great black super hero movie, not a great super hero movie with black people in it. That's what I hoped for, that's what I got. I'd have been happy with the latter so to get the former
What's with redcafe posters always expecting TDK from literally every comic book movie? It gets old...
What's with redcafe posters always expecting TDK from literally every comic book movie? It gets old...
Silly benchmark to have.
"A gangster film isnt good if it isnt held in the same regard as The Godfather"
TDK is one of the greatest movies ever made, let alone in this genre, which included all time great directing, acting and musical performances. You aren't going to get that in every film.
I think the fighting and the music during the whole sequence while challenging for the Black Panther title was so well done, that the final battle was a little below that standard.. Hence it seems like it could have been done better..
Overall though,movie was great fun..
Overall though,movie was great fun..
It can't do that because of the limitations of it being based in the MCU. Winter Soldier could do as it did because they wanted to change up the MCU. Same like how the Infinity Wars film will likely do that again. The MCU films have to hit a certain beat really and this one deviated a bit with the villain motivations. Only thing similar would be Loki. Also, different in the message and discussion it was trying to provoke.
Yeah my main gripe with the film would be the battle at the end. The one outside I was fine with but between Killmonger and T'Challa? Lacking.
Its a way to recognise its significance, also to celebrate fiction like everyone else does.
Well it was good, not great. A pretty standard entry in the Marvel origin / solo movies. I thought all the performances were great, CG let it down at times and the pacing was a little off at the beginning, but, overall, a nice addition to the universe.
The i-wish-this-was-as-good-as-the-dark-knight debate is a little silly. First, the Dark Knight was a Chris Nolan film, set in its own universe and not having to service a wider canon of films. Second, this character isn't, historically, one of Marvel's flagship properties and comes in as the.. 18th?.. in the series and has a lot of origins legwork. Expecting them to match up as films is unrealistic, especially when no other Marvel film has come close.
Furthermore, this film exists in much family-friendly universe and, like all Marvel films, works as well for children as it does for adults. This is certainly not the case with The Dark Knight which is at the highest end of the 12A rating, with it's themes and violence considerably more adult. Would a grittier take on Black Panther have better served the younger end of the audience? Absolutely not. This film didn't have to be anything, it is what it is and it's doing brilliantly.
The i-wish-this-was-as-good-as-the-dark-knight debate is a little silly. First, the Dark Knight was a Chris Nolan film, set in its own universe and not having to service a wider canon of films. Second, this character isn't, historically, one of Marvel's flagship properties and comes in as the.. 18th?.. in the series and has a lot of origins legwork. Expecting them to match up as films is unrealistic, especially when no other Marvel film has come close.
Furthermore, this film exists in much family-friendly universe and, like all Marvel films, works as well for children as it does for adults. This is certainly not the case with The Dark Knight which is at the highest end of the 12A rating, with it's themes and violence considerably more adult. Would a grittier take on Black Panther have better served the younger end of the audience? Absolutely not. This film didn't have to be anything, it is what it is and it's doing brilliantly.
Saw this yesterday, and while I may have formed my opinion of it wrongly by being continually pulled out of the film by the single worst cinema audience experience of my life, I think I agree with Dante.
As a cultural phenomenon, it's fantastic. As a film, it's nothing special. Nothing in the story really elevates it above the rest.
The performances were decent, with Michael B Jordan being excellent, as many have said. Obviously, it's great to see so many strong black female characters in particular. Trouble is that the main character is in himself pretty dull.
As for where it sits with the rest of the Marvel films, I'd agree with what someone has posted above, it's around the level of Doctor Strange for me. Obviously, as we've seen so many superhero origins in recent years and they all share fairly similar stories and motivations, as well as a need to introduce new worlds and characters, there's always an element of going through the motions.
I like the introduction of a spiritual element to the MCU, but I feel a bit underwhelmed by it as a whole. Hopefully there will be a better sequel, as we've seen with a few marvel films recently, certainly I think Ryan Coogler is capable of making one, especially as he will be free of the constraints of an origin story and can hopefully expand on the elements that did work. Like a few others here, for me, that didn't include the final battle-by-numbers, which we've seen so many times before by now.
As a cultural phenomenon, it's fantastic. As a film, it's nothing special. Nothing in the story really elevates it above the rest.
The performances were decent, with Michael B Jordan being excellent, as many have said. Obviously, it's great to see so many strong black female characters in particular. Trouble is that the main character is in himself pretty dull.
As for where it sits with the rest of the Marvel films, I'd agree with what someone has posted above, it's around the level of Doctor Strange for me. Obviously, as we've seen so many superhero origins in recent years and they all share fairly similar stories and motivations, as well as a need to introduce new worlds and characters, there's always an element of going through the motions.
I like the introduction of a spiritual element to the MCU, but I feel a bit underwhelmed by it as a whole. Hopefully there will be a better sequel, as we've seen with a few marvel films recently, certainly I think Ryan Coogler is capable of making one, especially as he will be free of the constraints of an origin story and can hopefully expand on the elements that did work. Like a few others here, for me, that didn't include the final battle-by-numbers, which we've seen so many times before by now.
To be fair to the director Coogler he is the first director from the black community to be given the budget, production values and scope to try and set such a benchmark film. For me he came mighty close and that is quite an achievement.
If we pick another immigrant community in America, say Italian Americans....how many Italian americans have been given the time money, indulgence and scope scope to try this? - Capra, Ford-Coppola, Scorcese, Ferrera.
imagine if there had never been a properly funded "wiseguy" filme until now. Would you get all the cultural references and tensions straight away?
They had the benefit of earlier directors acting as trailblazers and by no means can they claim to have a massively high success rate.
Quoting you purely because you were the nearest, but on a point a few have made.
I don't think Dante is expecting or suggesting this film should be as good as the Dark Knight. It's just been used as an example of what can be, when a genre film transcends the genre and is judged as a great film in its own right. It did that by way of a mix of great direction, character and story. There's no reason why another film, even made by Marvel as part of a shared universe (you could watch Black Panther without even being aware of that to some degree, it almost is able to stand alone, at least as much as TDK was, being a sequel itself) should not be able to aspire towards that. Obviously the chance of achieving this is pretty slim, and I'm sure he's aware of that.
I don't agree though, that just because a film is made for the MCU, it cannot ever reach that kind of level.
You want to keep expecting TDK, you'll keep getting disappointed... As a fan of these movies I just go in expecting to be entertained. Most of the time I leave satisfied.
Go on then.... What happened?
The Dark Knight is not that good and very overrated, my opinion, discuss.
Fixed and agreed (TDK is quite good on its own tho.)
It speaks to how underwater I’ve been at work that when one of my co-workers was talking excitedly about how much money this made I was confused as to how the Black Panthers made such a political comeback.
Lads behind continually asking me and the three teenage girls next to me (but not with me) to "fecking move" because they wanted to put their feet up on the seats we were using, talking all the way through, shouting stuff in French and switching on their torches on their phones every five minutes, all while the woman in the front who had brought her one year old kid in a buggy was trying to stop it crying by getting an iPad out for it to play with. The people just in front kept taking pictures on their phones and people from near the baby kept trying to change seats to near us before realising how bad the people on the back row were and moving around again. Got a refund.
I think that's a misconception though, I don't think anyone is expecting that. Just using it as an example of a benchmark for this type of film. Just like the Spanish inquisition, nobody expected The Dark Knight to become that benchmark, so why can't we hope for - rather than expect - another film to set itself apart from the crowd?
To be clear, I didn't expect anything more from this than to reach the quality of the rest of Marvel's stuff, but of course you go into most films hoping for something special, even if that's rarely the case.
Jordan's character was obviously a more memorable villain than whoever that bloke in the brown robes was in Doctor Strange, and Black Panther is culturally and politically far more important, but taken as wholes, there isn't a gulf in quality between the two films. Like Dante said, that's a bit of a shame.
I agree with this to an extent. I don't understand this modern Africa thought process when you can fight and kill a leader to take the throne. Does that not set it back?
Team Blade for me. I just rewatched the first two last week, That's a charismatic lead and character.
They wanted to show how Africa is technologically advanced but still preserves its's culture and traditions. I can relate to that, where I live, we try to mix our own traditional values while having a progressive outlook as well, instead of totally renouncing either. Whether you think fighting for the throne is a backward mindset or not, it is a part of their culture and so they retained it.
I must admit I am puzzled by the Wakanda celebration and related stuff as well, as someone said earlier, it is a fictional country, so can't see where the pride comes in. I get the reason why the film is being hailed though.
And I agree, Blade is miles better than Black Panther anyday. Wesley Snipes owned that character, showed Blade as a moral guy without reducing any of his bad-assery.
Maybe the jokes on you and Wakanda isn't actually fictional....
Its all a massive troll!Could it not be just a reference to a fictional place in a film that they both enjoy? Like a LOTR fan wearing a t-shirt picturing Middle Earth? Or a Superman fan wearing a hat with an S on it? Or a Batman fan quoting 'Why so serious'? Or a Star Wars fan swishing around pretending to fight with light sabers?
Lots of times you see people looking at this film or anything to do with it through a lens of.... I don't know but either way its unique to this film. I don't recall any over analysis for Blade etc...
Its a comic book movie that embraced black culture to a greater degree than we are normally used to.
Blade is a completely different type of movie. Dark adult action flick, not so much family friendly comic book. It fit in with all the Vampire stuff that was all the rage back then. Its a great movie and I had the exact same cinema experience (rowdy urban audience catching jokes, and the odd bit of crowd participation at the right times) watching the first one which was a nice nostalgia hit.
Blade is a good comic book movie with (some) black characters, and BP is a good black comic book movie. Both great films but the 3rd blade is garbage sorry.
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Because there are black people all over the world from different cultures and as a race we are very divided. There isn't a universal idea or concept we can all get behind. Everyone is very patriotic and so you dont have for example Nigerians celebrating the success of French immigrants in football. So a fictional country is an opportunity for every black person to get behind.
Don't do this in a Black Panther thread. I believe your topic is worthy of a new thread, go for it.