I’m sure it didn’t change his opinion all that much.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
- Status
Was it 6-3 or 9-0?
How on earth can you take the Ballon d'Or at face value?
Last season Messi was unequivocally the best individual player in Europe in the domestic leagues, it's not hyperbole to say he was single handedly carrying Barcelona, winning more points than anyone else with his goals (important last minute ones Vs Valencia, Villarreal, Real Madrid, Atletico etc, see here) and dropping deeper so everything went through him in the team. This season from September he started like a house on fire in the absence of Suarez and the departure of Neymar. Ignoring the 2 goals he got Vs Madrid in April, his performance that night was a one man show. On the other hand Ronaldo was afforded plenty of rest throughout the Liga season as Morata, Asensio, Isco and co took Real to La Liga glory. All lead to Ronaldo's astonishing scoring form in the CL knockouts (lest we forget Modric and Marcelo were two of Madrid's best PLAYERS along the way). This season he was berated right up until the new year as being past it, yet come January 2018 - Ronaldo wins the Ballon d'Or.
That begs the question - why did he win it in 2013? That was the year Bayern won the treble, Ribery won the UEFA Best Player award by a landslide and Messi was officially La Liga player of the season as he came ever so close to bettering his own individual best season, just blighted by injuries towards the end. Ronaldo was also crowned the Ballon d'Or winner that year too. Before you or anyone else mentions it, that was absolutely nothing like 2010. That year Messi won it by producing some of the most scintillating performances football fans have ever witnessed between the months of January and April (memorable games against Valencia, Arsenal and Zaragoza (let Sid Lowe refresh your mind), leading into the 2011 season, and you know how that ended up. Many consider that Messi's best years.
What I find intriguing (or rather boring) in this entire discussion is with Ronaldo it comes down essentially to stats and figures (goals scored, individual recognition, records broken etc). No one has dared mentioned a game where he's been the heartbeat of the Madrid side without getting his name on the score sheet. With Messi there's a genuine ignorance to the fact his performances speak far louder than what his stats suggest. It makes me wonder if the same ignorance would be shown if Maradona and Muller were plying their trade in this era. One clearly a better goalscorer, the other just a flat out better football player, both great players who were incredibly important to their Clubs/Countries success.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think he's the 2nd best player ever, which "possibly the greatest player ever" is a very fair description, no?
Every single year, at the end of the season, players get their vote on who's been the better player. Most of them I doubt they even watch football so I'm not sure why fans even care about their opinions.
I think most people agree that Messi is better so there's no need to bring in ex pros opinions.
Its the arguments being brought forward thats the farce.
Its the arguments being brought forward thats the farce.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/messi-v-ronaldo.400526/page-166#post-22345385
Unless I'm mistaken it seems you agree that Messi is a better footballer
Easy argument to make but it stands as a matter of fact that Real certainly wouldn't have won the CL in 2016 & 2017 if the Real Madrid team was exactly the same but some other player was there in place of Ronaldo.
In 2016, Modric and Kroos were nowhere to be seen against an average wolfsburg team in the 1st leg of the CL QFs when they got beaten 2-0 away from home. It was Ronaldo who stepped up in the 2nd leg and took the game by the scruff of the neck by pouncing on defensive errors by Wolfsburg and scoring two crucial early goals to put Madrid in the driver's seat. He then scored the critical 3rd goal (his hat-trick) from a FK that put them through to the semis on the day. In that return game, no Madrid player really played anything special; it was just Ronaldo's insatiable hunger and never say die attitude that lifted the team.
Again in 2017; Bayern were dominating the 1st leg of the QFs (with Kroos and Modric being overrun in the midfield) and scored a goal early on through Vidal and even almost went 2-0 up before the break. However, Ronaldo, through clever play and dribbling on the wing got J.Martinez booked for a foul before then scoring and excellent equaliser against the run of play and then minutes later (again through clever movement on the ball) got the spaniard a 2nd booking for a foul to see him go off and reduce Bayern to 10-men and change the entire complexion of the game. Only then, did we start seeing Modric and Kroos playing ....once Ronaldo had taken the game by the scruff of the neck yet again even though they were nowhere to be seen before this. Ofcourse, he then went on to score the winner at the allianz arena.
So as can be seen Ronaldo's impact goes beyond just putting the ball in the back of the net. His desire and hunger often leads his team to success.
EDIT: Not to mention in 2016, Ronaldo scored or assisted close to 77% of Real Madrid's goals in that CL..
But Messi has been exceptional at that level too so combine that with the fact he's been better in domestic football (like you just admitted) then I can't see how it justifies saying Ronaldo is better than Messi.
Ronaldo's scored more goals in the Champions League than Messi has. He hasn't performed to a higher level in the Champions League than Messi has.
That's not what being a better footballer is.https://www.redcafe.net/threads/messi-v-ronaldo.400526/page-166#post-22345385
Unless I'm mistaken it seems you agree that Messi is a better footballer
Hahaha my mistake. Meant to put RonaldoWas it 6-3 or 9-0?
Yes, he has. He's scored a lot more, he's assisted a lot more and he's generally been better imo. Messi's been exceptional in the Champions League, but not as good as Ronaldo. Ronaldo has been exceptional in domestic football, but not as good as Messi.
It's just that the 4/5/6/7 games in the knockouts are bigger than the 45 games in domestic football.
In La Liga?
Okay.
You admit Messi is as good a goalscorer as Ronaldo and has more ability with a football but Ronaldo's 17 extra goals in 25 more games in one tournament really swing it for you?
Just wanted your reasons why you think he’s so good. Call it a eulogy
He scores almost as many as the best player ever and has won a lot.Just wanted your reasons why you think he’s so good. Call it a eulogy
This part I strongly disagree with. He has performed to a higher level than Messi in the Champions League.
Since the decline of Xaviesta, Messi has rarely taken control of a key CL game.
I did say he has more ability with a football but no, I did not say Messi was as good of a goalscorer, I said he scored about the same amount of goals which is different.
First of all, he scores less goals, not by much but less. Secondly, he's generally had the better team around him for both club and country. And thirdly, a goal in the CL group stages isn't the same as a goal in the CL final so not all goals count the same. I do think Ronaldo's the better goalscorer of the two, not by a big difference but better nevertheless.
As for your question, no, his overall goal record doesn't matter, his performances do and goals are just a part of it. Champions League aside, I think he's performed better for his national team too.
Both count as an assist
Much text to say very little.
The current holder of the Ballon d’Or is widely recognized to be the current BPITW. You didn’t see me belittling the award when the other guy was FAR ahead.
If I were Ronaldo's PR manager I would pretend the same based on a trophy which Ronaldo's team won without him:
National team goals vs. Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain:
18 Messi
13 Suarez
12 Neymar
1 C. Ronaldo
Must try harder.How many times has Messi played against those considering they play each other in all the qualifiers?
Don’t be silly. Even if Ronaldo barely featured in the final he was obviously the key player. Without him Portugal would have exited the group stage.
Yes, I'm sure Argentina went wild for those friendlies.
Goals in international tournaments
Messi
Panama: 3
Nigeria: 2
Iran: 1
Bosnia: 1
Paraguay: 1
US: 1
Venezuela: 1
Serbia: 1
Peru: 1
Mexico: 1
Ronaldo
Netherlands: 3
Hungary: 2
Czech Republic: 2
Greece: 1
North Korea: 1
Ghana: 1
Iran: 1
Wales: 1
Ronaldo has played against those teams 23 times.
How many times has Messi played against those considering they play each other in all the qualifiers?
Current ballon d’or represents the player who had the best season, it is possible to have a better season than someone but still be he inferior player.
It’s like in the NBA LeBron James could have an argument for winning the MVP 8 years in a row, but it usually goes to the player on the team with the best record. But nobody really says anyone else is better than LeBron.
Same applies to Messi, 90% of the managers of the world would take Messi over Ronaldo. Compare the way his peers and managers gush over Messi in comparison to Ronaldo (not to say ronaldo doesn’t get praise) and it’s fairy obvious.
Yes, of course. They can beat France on their home soil in the final without him but they wouldn't get out of the group.
not in the final he wasn't. And they would have exited the group stage with the previous rules. So to act like him getting out of it is impressive is laughable.
Yeah the international thing is a red herring. The quality of teams Portugal face is much worse than that of Argentina.
You know, I was literally typing out the same point about the NBA and LeBron. The awards are generally given to the best player on the best team not the best overall player. Hence why LeBron hasn't won the thing for like 5 years now
It is widely accepted that the holder of the Ballon d’Or is the current BPITW. That is the target for every player with aspirations of being «the best».
*groan*
His two goals against Hungary literally qualified them as #3 as well as scoring the important first goal in the SF.
LeBron hasn’t won it because he hasn’t been the best player during the regular season. Westbrook won it last year, did his team have the best record?You know, I was literally typing out the same point about the NBA and LeBron. The awards are generally given to the best player on the best team not the best overall player. Hence why LeBron hasn't won the thing for like 5 years now
LeBron is considered the better because in the playoffs he stops coasting and he raises his game.
History will remember ronaldo as winning a major European tournament, those of us who watched it at the time know his whole performance that tournament was a 6/10 at best.
Lebron coasts during the regular season? Jeez you and I have such different opinions. Bet you like your steak well done
If Ronaldo leads Real to a 3rd CL title in a row, it will be a bit silly to regard his career as inferior to Messi's.
Messi wasn't even the best player for Argentina in the last WC and history will remember him as winning the award for best player in the tournament after losing a final. Those of us who watched him know his performances were at best 6,5.
LeBron is considered the best because he quite clearly has the most ability. Much like Messi. Westbrook won it because he had a historic season and because there was a media narrative due to Durant leaving to join the big bad evil empire in California. Anyway, the point is, if you were handing out the individual awards based on who the best player is then LBJ would win it every year. But you don't. You give it to who has had the best season on either the best team or a very, very good team. Much like the Ballon d'Or. You rate Ronaldo higher than Messi for example, so if Messi wins it, you won't think it's because he's better than him. You'll say it's because Barcelona had a better season than Real and vice versa. Feck, there was people calling for Wesley bloody Sneijder to win the Ballon d'Or not long ago!
Basketball is actually an interesting comparison to football here btw. Messi v Ronaldo is just our version of LeBron v Kobe. One of them a very selfish player but scores an awful lot and has a crazy amount of stans who use this as proof of how he's better. The other is less selfish but still scores a lot, is clearly better overall and he too has a crazy amount of stans fighting to the end. Mind. Blown.
This could take a while
No wonder you crazy bastards have almost reached 200 pages!Oh no. Here comes the Mascherano train. Choo-choo!
Did I say it was hugely impressive? I said that they would have exited the group and not won the EC without him. Interpret that as you choose.
- Status