I’d rather play with 9 men than those two
Antonella?
Look and guess who is the 1 who improves everyone on his team?
Shit happens.
God that has to be photoshopped?
You mean this one?
Probably don't remember him being so bad, even for his own vulgar standards must say
No, LeBron is considered to be the best because over the past I dont' know how many years he's been a lot better at playing basketball than anyone else on the planet. No one needs to use any sort of argument like "LeBron is the best because he's better when it really matters". The same was also true for Jordan, Maradona, Gretzky etc, or you can even take a guy like Nadal on a clay court. They were the best players because they were consistently the best players game in and game out, they were not the best because they were better than the rest in 10% of the games they played in total over their 15 year careers.
How do you think Maradona would be rated if he played average games in both World Cups (86 and 90) and Argentina don't get to the final in either?
Not for me but, probably not the God status around the World and in Argentina but still God status at Napoli, he still isn't very liked at Barcelona.
Maradona played 6/10 in 90 World Cup
He was injured but still took them to 2 finals in a row...
Why isn't he liked in Barcelona?
Because the 2 years Maradona spent there didn't fulfilled the expecations around him, lots of controversies in and out of the pitch, butchered by Goikoetxea from Bilbao followed by violent confontations with Bilbao players if I am not wrong.
I remember the Bilbao thing but I didn't know that Barcelona fans weren't fond of him.
Well, in my opinion, your arguments don't make any sense either. You are doing the exact same thing you accuse "Messi fanboys" of: Downplaying his achievements because you have an agenda. You keep saying that you do not reduce the debate to goal statistics but emphasize great performances in big games. Yet, great performances consist solely of goals for you. What if I said that Messi's CL spells in 2009, 2011 and 2015 were as impressive as Ronaldo's 2017? You would argue "but Ronaldo scored so and so many goals in the knockout stages, how can you say such a stupid thing?" You do not even consider that Messi made up for the difference in goals by contributing more through his dribblings, playmaking, passing and so on.
Messi 2011 was as good as Ronaldo in 2017... if you make up what I say and then argue against it, it's very easy to say I'm wrong. Great performances do not solely consist of goals and I never said that at all.
Yeah that's why he dribbled past Javi Martinez twice, got fouled twice, Javi Martinez got sent off... and Madrid went ahead to win it. He doesn't do anything besides scoring goals... that's why he was the better player on the Napoli round where he didn't score a single goal.
That's true but that's one game. In that game Ronaldo did pretty much nothing outside of goals, in other games he did. Saying he never does anything outside of goals is just stupid.
He was what now?
Ah so when Messi gets a player sent off with his dribbling, it's because he dribbled great. Ronaldo got Javi Martinez sent off and he doesn't do anything outside of goals.
Yes, exactly
Just watch his highlights. Unfortunately I cannot link videos but I just watched a 12 minute video on YouTube. This was by no means a bad performance. He had incredible dribblings in both finals. It was Diaz who was sent off after 30 minutes (!) after fouling Messi multiple times.Only God knows how it will end up.
Doesn't that neglect your argument that Ronaldo is the better CL player?
I rewatched it specifically for this post. Come on.. you have to see the difference. In the first foul it was barely a dribbling but a first touch and Martinez ran into him. The second move was better but also not really a one on one. And apart from that there wasn't much contribution, too. This would be a more than sub-average game for Messi standards. It says something that you mention this game as a positive example.
No, it isn't because that's what he does most of the time. It is also in the statistics. When you take a look at his dribblings per game, his key passes per game, chances created and so on his is just an average player nowadays. Nowhere near Messi level and this is the standard he wants to be compared with.
Look up the videos and you see the difference and what I mean with provoking a sending off. Messi received the ball in the midfield and time and time again started his dribblings. He had his opponent sent off 30 minutes into the game. How often was he fouled, 15 times? Sorry, you cannot be serious if you compare these situations. Look how many attacks Messi initiated and how many free kicks in dangerous positions he got for his team (and executed them properly, creating at least two or three great heading opportunities)
I did. They don't make sense to me because you keep addressing goals as your primary indication of performance level and I do not think that this is valid. You say otherwise but you still do. You do not really accept Messi's great performances in games where he did not score and did not win a title and your argument that Ronaldo still contributes seems pretty desperate and much weaker than your goal statistic driven approaches. I think after all you know very well that there is much truth in the "accusation" that Ronaldo is a pure goal scorer nowadays.
No, why would it?
Sub average game... Messi's had one better game than that in the past 3 fecking years in the knockouts of the Champions League and that was a couple of weeks ago.
We're talking about his Champions League games but now you've changed you're tune. Now you're saying he doesn't do as much as Messi outside of scoring goals (which is true overall) but in the first post you said he added absolutely nothing to the game besides scoring and that is bullshit.
I mean it was the exact same situation for Ronaldo except it was in the second half rather than at the 30 minute mark. Ronaldo created chances too, better ones in fact.
Where the bloody hell did I do that? I merely said their main role on the pitch for both of them is their direct impact on their team's goals. Not just their goals, but the teammates goals. Then I said goals and assists are a very good measure of that and they should be taken into account. I never said goals are the only reason to judge a player's performance like you say I did but you can be sure goals are damn important. That's how you get those points that lead to winning games in this sport.
177 pages would indicate that you are wrong.
Then why do you think Ronaldo is the greater CL player? If you believe that Messi's 2011 was just as good as Ronaldo's 2017 what exactly lets you rate him higher then the Argentinian?
This may be a little bit exaggerated. Of course he contributes a little but as I said before, as of today he is average in it. Far, far away from world class.
No, it wasn't the exact same situation and I think you know that. Ronaldo gets fouled on his first touch two times in a row, there is nothing special or particularly difficult in his movements. You really cannot compare the dribblings that lead to the yellow cards. Honestly, it is silly that you deny that.
I could go back and search for quotes that imply the exact same thing but honestly, this gets a little bit out of hand and I am not willing to spend the required amount of time just to prove a point. You keep saying that it is not all about goals for you but in the end most of your arguments are based on these very statistics. Things like the goals and assists statistics you mentioned.
Last 11 years since they've been top players in the world, Ronaldo finished above Messi 6 times in the Ballon D'Or voting. All of them correctly too, don't think it was even a small margin on any of them.
Him performing better overall? Just because their two best years in the competition were as good as eachother doesn't mean one can't be better than the other.
That Ronaldo's performed better, if you were to rate their CL seasons individually Ronaldo would end up with a better grade if I added it all on. That was the case before last season happened too, last season just made the gap a lot bigger. You call being better at playmaking, dribbling and passing as being the better footballer so I'm not sure we're watching the same sports as there is a lot more to being a footballer than that.
I couldn't care less how difficult they are, I care about how effective they are.
Goals and assists are part of my argument, they are not my argument. Very different things.
Much like some old friends of mine ‘communicating’ with the fairer sex in a variety of nightclubs many, many moons ago, there’s a certain respect that must be given when so much effort is expended for so little reward!
A matter of subjective preference in which people assume an objective consensus can be reached.
Oh, I don’t know, I can put forward a couple of ex-girlfriends that would challenge that assertion.
