It's not your opinion, I'd venture (they're all valid); more the way you choose to 'express' them. I understand you may be a little giddy after CR's excellent performance tonight in the first leg of the QF, but please afford your fellow posters the same respect they are showing you.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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For me Ronaldo is the GOAT. Laugh all you want.
Very interesting thread.
Ridiculous to claim that Madrid were the second best all night.
It's a shame it was very short, lots of good posts but I think it shows perfectly where a lot of the disagreements in this thread come from.
Yeah, totally overrated.
You should start a thread about who the top ten AT are .... well 3-10 anyway as you've already sorted the top two.
Ronaldo's goal was just brillant. His finishing is simply perfection. That bicycle kick was incredibly hard. The height, the angle, is own movenment against the direction he wanted to shoot.. amazing. It's like he's a robot that sees the ball, calculates its distance, curve, pace and precisely knows when to jump and kick in order to hit it perfectly. And he's already 33. At that age, most other players would have broken their backs or something like that. Except for Ibrahimovic, probably.
It is really a question of preferrences. Which quality of a player do you rate as the most important personally? If you say it's the abilities Ronaldo exceeds in (positioning, finishing, "guts" etc.) than that is fair. But you should use these criteria on every player. Because historically, other attributes have been used in order to identify the greatest players.
And personally, I stick with the other attributes. I admire Ronaldo, he is the best player in the box I have ever seen, but put him exemplarily in a side like Barcelona at the beginning of this season and I don't think that you will see much of him. Messi can drop into the midfield to initiate attacks if you need him to. In fact, this is what he does most of the time in the last two seasons and for Argentina in general. It is amazing that he still ends up on the scoring sheet that often. You cannot bother Ronaldo with the same things. Of course you could neither ask Messi to go into the box to fight with the center backs and score after a cross but I simply feel like Messi contributes more to the success of his teams with the things he does although it cannot be measured in goals. Put him in front of a midfield like Kroos and Modric or Iniesta and Xavi and he scores even more than Cristiano.
Probably you could put it that way: The Cristiano of the past five years (and this is the one that won three of his four Ballon D'Ors and thus the player that shaped his legacy) is close to nothing without provision. But if Messi is not provided with scoring opportunities, he simply creates them on his own and miracously still ends up at the end of them. That makes him more versatile for me. Because he steps in if there's a creative vacuum but also when the team doesn't score enough goals.
Please don't understand that as criticism of Cristiano. As I said, I think he is an incredible player and deserves to be mentioned among the all-time best although he maintains a totally different playing style since he is so good at it. However, when we are talking about the spheres I see Messi in (which is at Maradona and Pele level) then this stain keeps him out if you ask me.
I think if a player like Crouch scores 3000 goals he needs incredible provision of goal scoring opportunities because he doesn't create them himself. I get your point because obviously you need incredible abilities (especially awareness, anticipation and intelligence) in order to position yourself correctly and an amazing technique in order to finish your chances (and probably athleticism too). But in the end, you are totally reliant on your colleagues. Ronaldo cannot really create chances out of the midflield. Or, let's put it that way: He is nothing special in it anymore and even the Manchester United Cristiano, albeit a brillant creator, was not on Messi's level. For instance, if the midfield engine of Madrid isn't working, Ronaldo won't fall back, take the ball, dribble past an opponent, play a little bit one-two with the forward and then finish it himself or assist a team mate. He simply doesn't do that. He at least needs a cross to come in the box (even if it is bad, just like today) or a pass he can run into. For me, that is the difference.
It is really a question of preferrences. Which quality of a player do you rate as the most important personally? If you say it's the abilities Ronaldo exceeds in (positioning, finishing, "guts" etc.) than that is fair. But you should use these criteria on every player. Because historically, other attributes have been used in order to identify the greatest players.
And personally, I stick with the other attributes. I admire Ronaldo, he is the best player in the box I have ever seen, but put him exemplarily in a side like Barcelona at the beginning of this season and I don't think that you will see much of him. Messi can drop into the midfield to initiate attacks if you need him to. In fact, this is what he does most of the time in the last two seasons and for Argentina in general. It is amazing that he still ends up on the scoring sheet that often. You cannot bother Ronaldo with the same things. Of course you could neither ask Messi to go into the box to fight with the center backs and score after a cross but I simply feel like Messi contributes more to the success of his teams with the things he does although it cannot be measured in goals. Put him in front of a midfield like Kroos and Modric or Iniesta and Xavi and he scores even more than Cristiano.
Probably you could put it that way: The Cristiano of the past five years (and this is the one that won three of his four Ballon D'Ors and thus the player that shaped his legacy) is close to nothing without provision. But if Messi is not provided with scoring opportunities, he simply creates them on his own and miracously still ends up at the end of them. That makes him more versatile for me. Because he steps in if there's a creative vacuum but also when the team doesn't score enough goals.
Please don't understand that as criticism of Cristiano. As I said, I think he is an incredible player and deserves to be mentioned among the all-time best although he maintains a totally different playing style since he is so good at it. However, when we are talking about the spheres I see Messi in (which is at Maradona and Pele level) then this stain keeps him out if you ask me.
No one can laugh at that. I don’t see the issue with the opinion at all. Anyone who does laugh at you is likely just incapable of rational debate. You don’t need to change your opinion or beliefs to be able to engage in a mutually respected conversation.
Take @Peyroteo and @Cal? for example, i believe the other player is better and we will all never change our opinion but I enjoy the discussions with them. I’m sure we all know when it’s in jest and light hearted and I’m sure we can all concede that the argument for the other player has so much merit.
It’s the sporting debate of our generation, that’s for sure. I love it. No one will ever be able to convince me that any other rivalry in history has been this close.
Apparently Ronaldo has more UCL goals in the QF stage (22 goals) than all of Juventus as a club combined. That’s just silly.
Yeah, Canadian TV doesn’t count just like Indian TV wouldn’t
Also, I wouldn’t put it beyond Ronaldo to score in ever single UCL game including the final this season. That would be an unbreakabke achievement!
Literally. But next year he’ll do it again but score 2 goals in every game
They were saying that Kroos and Modric are as good as Xavi and Iniesta on BT Sport too.
Messi's goal vs Bayern in 2015, his goal against Bilbao in the CDR Final and his running through the entire getafe squad were all better goals than today's CR7 goal.
I think even Mandzukic's bicycle in the final was better as he chipped the keeper.
However, today was one of the best goal's Ronaldo has had. As amazing of a goal scorer as he has been this decade I feel like I can barely count on one hand truly memorable CL goals that he has had that you still remember years later. He's just a clinical robot (and I say that to his credit). Today's goal was a worldie though
Excellent post, IMO.
Man, can you imagine the arguing in that thread lol.
1. Messi
2. Maradona
3. Pele
4. Cristiano
5. Cruyff
6. Beckenbauer
7. Ronaldo
8. Di Stefano (maybe should be higher but I haven't seen enough of him)
9. Ronaldinho
10. Iniesta
I know 9 and 10 are ridiculously controversial but I just think both are incredible. Ronaldinho didn't do it for long enough but when he was at his peak I think he's the most unbelievable footballer ever. Iniesta's ability and honours speak for themselves. I know Zidane is the glaring omission but I just think Iniesta is a little bit better.
9 La Liga
5 Copa del Rey
4 Champions League
2 European Championships
1 World Cup
Legend.
Slightly off-topic, but you could argue that Federer vs Nadal was, for a few years, just as close, and if you're an old basketball fan like I am, Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson was very intense.
I'm genuinely curious to hear from posters who currently rate Messi as 1 .... is your view fixed (and nothing will change this) or not?
For example, if Ronaldo gets his fifth CL winners medal this season (scoring the winner in the final), scores another 100 goals in the next couple of seasons, gets a sixth CL winners medal, has a decent WC...... would this change your view at all?
For example, if Ronaldo gets his fifth CL winners medal this season (scoring the winner in the final), scores another 100 goals in the next couple of seasons, gets a sixth CL winners medal, has a decent WC...... would this change your view at all?
They are definitely not imo.
@Pink Moon, you rate Iniesta over Xavi?
Na as special as it was at the time, it doesn’t get close to the same breath as the other ones mentioned.
Mandzukic goal was brilliant, but it didn’t require the amount of athleticism ronaldo showed and that’s what separates them. If you ever had to demonstrate a perfect overhead kick, you would show that and Trevor Sinclair, there haven’t been two better in the history of the game in terms of perfect everything. That’s only the second time I’ve ever laughed out loud at how ridiculous a ronaldo goal is, the first one being the 88th minute winner v Fulham.
That's not a bad list but not even Satan Himself on Judgement Day could get me to say anyone was ever better at football than Maradona.
My view is fixed in terms of a better player.
But like I said, you can argue Ronaldo's career is greater and that he's a more 'greater' player if that makes sense.
For me it’s moments. If ronaldo were to provide me with say, 20 more “what the feck have I just witnessed” moments then I’d reconsider. The amount of times I’ve just put my hands on my head or laughed out loud at the things messi does must be into several dozen now, maybe more.
Messi's goal against Bayern was legendary. To do it against a world class defender and world class keeper, the best keeper in the world and a top 5 defender was just ridiculous. He face planted Boateng and chipped Neuer after Neuer said he would "show Messi's who's boss" that was the ultimate F U goal.
And it still often gets mentioned as an all time classic goal. An absolute you knew exactly where you were and when it happened.
I guess I attach global importance of the sport. Basketball really doesn’t have that big of a following outside North America. Federer Nadal probably in second place though.
We’ve seen that Messi goal replayed a lot. This ronaldo one will get played A LOT more.
Edit: you have to factor in the difficulty. Messi has dribbled by many a quality defender and dinked it over many a goalkeeper, and several world class ones.
What ronaldo did, on that stage, has happened so rarely that it takes the edge. It’s the perfect overhead kick
Also putting Boetang on his backside added to the joy of that goal. Watching an overconfident German suffer large scale hubris is a universal pleasure.
He would need to finish his career with 3 more CL titles than Messi, and for once in his life have a great world cup by at least getting to the semi-finals and having his team put up a good showing.
But even then, he's got the best midfield in the world behind and has a much better all around team than Messi does (as Messi did in the Pep days over Ronaldo)
Ronaldo is an amazing poacher, who is deadly in the box, whereas Messi's influence is felt just about all over the pitch.
I think he was better but Xavi was more important to the side. You can't go wrong with whatever one you pick. I just prefer Iniesta's style of play. I'm a sucker for a dribbler.
Not really a fan of either player but this talk of Messi being "on another planet/level" is complete nonsense. He'd have better stats if that was true, more goals, CL goals. I also doubt the whole thing about Ronaldo having to have people provide for him. Messi is a guy that has played a big part of his career in the same/similar set up that saw Spain win 2 Euros and a World Cup back to back. He's had better, more functional teams around him than Ronaldo for the most part. Ronaldo having a big international trophy also provides doubt.
I disagree, Mandzukic did it last year in the final, and chipped the keeper and wad further out than Ronaldo was. No other player, not even Neymar could do what Messi did. We've seen Ibra and Shaqiri and Giroud have insane bicycle kicks, I've rarely seen in recent memory a player do to neuer and boateng what Messi did.
That was just so beyond filthy that you have your head in your hands. Not that Ronaldo's goal wasn't spectacular, but he's tried that 500 times and finally got it. He due for one, and it was great. But Messi's was something where you just went "oh man, oh man, oh man" first he dekes the heck out of Boateng and then chips it over Neuer. It was one of the most defining moments of the CL this decade and was what helped propel Barca towards the final. It was deadlocked only 5 minutes earlier.
Wonderful goal by Ronaldo, but Messi has had several goals I'd place above ronnie's, and no that isn't a slight to Ronaldo.
And for the record, going by your other quotes I think we are on the same page about Messi and Ronaldo. I can barely count on one hand the moments where Ronaldo truly made me go "oh my god, how is that even possible" as clinical as he has, whereas Messi does it like 5 times a season if not more.
Agree l, I don't think there's much in it, but in terms of the best cms of this generation, Iniesta and Xavi are number 1 and 2 for me.
Ok.
Why three more?
Does Messi need a decent WC then? Does Ronaldo being part of a team that won Euros 16 count for anything?
Last bit (the midfield), don't they just balance out?
Fair enough. In terms of both protagonists pushing each other to higher levels I think there are a few parallels between Messi and CR and Magic and Bird, but I agree it's such a rare thing to have 2 competitors at such a level above everyone else in their respective fields.
Sure they do in regards to midfield, but Ronaldo has been fairy woeful in world cups Messi has been to the final.
Portugal was one of the worst Euro winners in memory and Ronaldo didn’t even play in the final. His team finished third in th group stage and played anti football the entire tournament.
He won it, credit to him, but again Portugal didn’t even need him for the final. He was great in the euros but Argentina without Messi and Barcelona without Messi are far worse teams than Portugal and Real Madrid without Ronaldo.
Messi is just better over 90 minutes more often than Ronaldo. Watching both players week in and week out for the past 8 years I can comfortably say Messi is better.
I don’t know if you watch basketball but it’s like saying what would it take to change someone’s mind and say Curry is better than LeBron. One is an amazing scorer, one of the best the sport has ever seen, the other is one of the greatest all around player we have ever seen.
It was, but the image of ronaldo posterizing de sciglio, Barzagli, Chiellini and Buffon whilst connecting with the ball about 7 foot in the air will be more iconic.
Very unlikely, but can you imagine a world cup final match between Argentina v Portugal, with fully fit messi and ronaldo? That would be absolutely amazing and with the potential of sealing the discussion for good and closing this thread finally
Ronaldo has scored the second best goal in the history of UCL hands down
The best goal and I believe impossible to top, it's Messi vs Madrid in 2011 semi-finals.
The best goal and I believe impossible to top, it's Messi vs Madrid in 2011 semi-finals.
But (yes, I'm digressing, suck it mods) Curry is more than a scorer. He is the main facilitator of one of the greatest offenses basketball has ever seen, both actively and passively.
I wouldn't put Curry over LeBron now because the latter simply has more accomplishments under his belt. But if Curry continues in his current form for over a decade, then it'll be a valid conversation.
I honestly don’t think the world would be able to cope.
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