I always like reasoned debate, and understand where you are coming from to an extent (it's a game where goals are the ultimate arbiter, after all).
But before one can score a goal, many other things have to be in place, but I made no comment about penalties and Chelsea so you may be confusing me with another poster.
Yes, I saw Rivaldo live in both Manchester and Barcelona (a few times), and also very much remember the dreadful way Van Gaal used both him and another of my favourites Riquelme, but that's another story. Think of how relatively bad that Barca side was and how Rivaldo essentially carried it for 2 seasons (they had a party when they finished 4th!). I don't see CR ever playing as selflessly as Rivaldo did for Barca at that time.
Well, there was a slight ironic lead-up to my posting the article with Rivaldo's stats, but I understand that humour doesn't translate well on the page sometimes - the utter ridiculousness of thinking that statistics can lead to truly objective assessments about human beings' endeavours (see various Labour Party 'target-driven' policies in the UK over the late 90s and 2000s) is the point I'm driving at and this is the very thing that many CR fans seem to cling to rather too vehemently.
I completely understand not being an aesthete in competitive sports, but how a team wins games is more complex than scoring goals. There's a reason that Kroos and Modric complained about the way the team seemed to be set-up for Ronaldo to score goals but it was effective. It's here where I feel many Ronaldo fans begin to lose the concept of a player in a team game and that's why Ronaldo will be considered more like Gerd Muller than Johan Cruyff in years to come. That still doesn't stop him being an amazing player, and that's what you should enjoy - it's nothing but a entertaining meaningless diversion, after all...
You seem to value Keane's opinion a lot. Here's one of them for you on Cristiano Ronaldo...
"'The guy is a genius, it's a simple as that," Keane said on ITV. "You are talking about one of the greatest players ever to play this GAME. He is a joy to watch.'"
You think highly of that Alex Ferguson guy or nah? Know of him? Coached a certain club some here might have heard of. Well anyway, this bloke Ferguson, the one with a career so storied that he's considered the best manger of all time by many, he's repeated on numerous occasions that Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player he's managed. And he's stated it so many times, in such manners and for so many years now that it's clearly beyond any doubt in his mind. Get this, he's even rated him ahead of Messi on many occasions, including when he wasn't even managing him! Must be a biased bugger though.
Here's some statistics (Sorry, I know of your aversion to facts from your previous post) for you that, while concerning Ronaldo, are team-based. Ronaldo, the player you state is so selfish he apparently negatively impacts his teammates, the same players (like Keane, a former teammate) that have continuously spoken only the best things about him. Keane, who also stated that he liked Ronaldo STRAIGHT AWAY when he entered the Man. United locker room because of how he led himself. Wanna know why Keane's opinion of Ronaldo differs from yours? Because how Ronaldo approaches LIFE is admirable to his teammates. Even someone like Roy Keane who ripped his national team manager in 2002 in such a manner that it was described as 'clinical, fierce, earth-shattering to the person on the end of it'. Roy Keane, the guy who stated he's always liked Ronaldo from the moment he met him, the one passionate about football but opting to choose personal principals in relation to what he thought of his manager over competing in Korea/Japan. It INSPIRES Ronaldo's teammates to see someone so dedicated and driven to make the absolute best of what God has given him. You seem to like footballer's quotes a lot, go take a look at how many of them have only spoken the utmost of the 'selfish' man that defended his much maligned teammate (Benzema) against his own fans. The 'selfish' player that thought it more important to get said teammate's confidence up by giving him the opportunity to take a penalty recently, rather than scoring it himself and getting a hat trick. Pretty selfish stuff from the person who has also done all sorts of charity work by his own volition as soon as he had enough money to significantly do it. A real despicable person on and off the field. Clearly.
Sorry, here's those FACTS...Ronaldo has been instrumental in more Champions League triumphs than Messi (4 to 3). Here's another. Cristiano Ronaldo captained Portugal to their only international triumph, in a tournament where they'd have crashed out of the group stages if not for his efforts. Messi can't even win the Copa America, the tournament that Ronaldinho and Kaka thought less worthy of their time than the beaches of Rio during their careers. Get this... Ronaldo's TEAMS, because of Ronaldo, have achieved more important trophies than Messi's have because of Messi. Ronaldo led his team to back-to-back Champions League triumphs, an unprecedented feat that Messi's Barcelona couldn't do, because of Ronaldo's performances against 3 of the top clubs in Europe. Know why it was unprecedented? because the champions league is the toughest competition in the entire history of the sport. Hat tricks against Bayern and Atletico, then slicing and dicing the 'impregnable' defense of Juventus for fun. I know you're too good for this thread and probably won't reply but if you do, please try not to argue that Messi's La Liga wins (a competition to to prove the best team in Spain) are more important than Ronaldo leading his clubs and national team to the summit of European football. The former (Spain) is a geography that makes up part of a MUCH BIGGER ONE. That means higher levels of competition in one relative to the other. much higher. and if you haven't caught on yet... competitiveness = difficulty. you can judge a player to be better than the other because of the talent he was born with but life, and the world, always finds a way to honor and respect what really matters. achievement. Understand that and you'll understand why this debate did not end when Messi won his 4th Ballon D'Or, why this thread exists and why you're posting in it.
Ronaldo's efforts have resulted in his TEAMS... get ready for this.... ACHIEVING MORE IMPORTANT VICTORIES than Messi's. Wanna know why Messi's peak came during the Great Spain years of 2008-2012... BECAUSE HE NEEDED THEM TO GET THERE. Ronaldo needs himself ONLY. It why he wins EVERYWHERE. ALWAYS. And, against ANYONE. It is why he led THREE teams to the TOP OF EUROPE. Go ahead and take a look at where Portugal, Real Madrid and Manchester United were when he entered each teams and then compare to where he took them. Go see how close each were to being European Champions when he entered those teams. Go take a look at how many finals Portugal has been to, and then check the preceding semi-final of each respective final. Tell me who scored the first goal in each of those semi-finals that led to their only final appearances in history. Go compare Portugal's appearances in tournaments and their respective performances Before and After Ronaldo. Tell me what you see. After that, go take a look at Player Ratings from the Portugal vs. France World Cup 2006 semi-final (there's many of them still available... yay Internet!). Let me know what you see. Hint: Ronaldo was voted by many not only the best Portuguese player, but the BEST PLAYER ON THE FIELD. Against Zidane's France playing in a team with Figo, Deco, etc. etc. In a game that, like in '66, was the farthest his national team had ever gotten in the most important national team competition there is. A game where, like in the 2009 Champions League final, it was his teammates that didn't match his level of effort and influence. Nah, you don't want to do that research. Someone so assured in what they say doesn't want their mind changed. Those pesky statistics (FACTS) that are grounded in reality tend to change people's uninformed opinions. You're clearly not interested in that. You're an old guy apparently so you know everything!
It's why you ask for demographics of people who defend Ronaldo. You seem to like to talk down to others from the high spot you imagine yourself to be on, and assume anyone that doesn't agree with you is because they're younger and therefore too juvenile to understand your unquestionable logic that you yourself proudly (and sadly) state isn't based on FACTS. Apparently not old enough to know what an ad-hominem is. You don't want to debate rationally. You want to debase arguments not on the merit of the argument themselves, but those that make said arguments. Better to stick to your fingers in your ears and tell yourself you're right and that you won't bother wasting your time in this senseless debate again. But you stated that in your first post, yet here I am replying to your second post in this thread. And looks like that second wasn't your last.
Keane stated Xavi is on the level of Zidane huh... Zidane, that player who has stated just within the past week or so that CR7 is from another galaxy? Wanna know why he said that? It isn't just because he's his coach, although I'm sure you want to think that is the only reason. You'll clearly avoid considering anything that could destroy your opinion of CR7 and won't bother asking yourself how many coaches, particularly a legend like Zidane, have even said such a thing about another player not named Messi. Zidane said it because he KNOWS how tough it is to do what Cristiano Ronaldo has done. He KNOWS how tough it is to play in a competition like the Champions Leauge, a competition where Ronaldo will NEVER be surpassed in goals because the only person capable of surpassing him (Messi) sees the distance grow larger and larger with each passing year. A competition where he has outscored messi, your 'eye' test victor, forty (40) to sixteen (16) in the most difficult stages of the most difficult competition in the sport's history, during it's most competitive period. How's those FACTS doing with your 'eye'? How about your brain?
Congratulations, you're old enough to have watched Rivaldo play. Now try to realize why even the most ardent of Barca supporters (check out CR7's forum on Barcaforum.com) would read "Rivaldo > CR7" and then laugh at such a stupid and ludicrous statement. Try and figure out why Cristiano Ronaldo is listed in every All-Time Starting XI for clubs like Real Madrid and Manchester United and why Rivaldo doesn't make most's Barca All-Time XI and why he played for Deportivo at an age Ronaldo had already LED Manchester United to a Champions League title. I don't think you're going to like the answer. I'll give you another hint: The answer is NOT that Rivaldo is the better footballer.
But it's your opinion that he is a better footballer than Ronaldo, and you're free to have it, even if it's wrong as far as opinions can be wrong. I'll let you know something you are wrongabout though. when you stated in your initial post that football can't be spoken of in the same breath as statistics because it's more 'nuanced' than other sports. do you understand how football became a global game? how it became the biggest sport this world has seen or ever will see? it's because it's simple. it's the opposite of nuanced. It involves a ball, and putting said ball in your opponent's net more times than they put it in yours. THAT'S IT. Football is clearly too big of a part of your life for you to see that it's nothing more than a GAME. Like Monopoly, Jenga, or Chess. But more entertaining and requiring some more athleticism. You should change your perspective on to where you realize football is a JUST A GAME, where a game is a very defined thing despite what Arrigo Sacchi recently stated. Trust me, the view is better from that side. IMO, at least.
Cheers.
