Lionel Messi - Performances

[Šjor Bepo]

It isn't about his stamina, this is being pushed again as it was back in 2013 and everytime his teams fail to perform. And he was so knackered that he dribbled past two Nigerian players to the goal line 89 minutes into the game, and won a throw in 90m away from Argentina's goal in the 91'

He's a 170 lean guy with more than 50k minutes of professional football in his legs, going against, bulkier younger guys like Etebo or Obi-Mikel who's a damn tank, he's not winning that fight. You could say "but when he's free he should run", that's a basic idea, reality is as soon as he gets the ball, he's getting into a physical fight with those guys, he needs to be fresh and sharp for 90 minutes and starts from a physical disadvantage, he needs almost all of his stamina to do so, that's why he had some to spare at the end, and if he needed it to score a goal he could capitalize on that.

He's reading the game, and being totally underrated at that. When he walks from side to side, it usually coincides with Argentina switching the flank they attack, when he gets himself between the CB's and DM he gains 10 meters of space for Mascherano and Banega to defend with the ball, we all know how much Argentina suck in defensive actions, and we saw how they got exposed against Spain when they had to defend deep, instead of with the ball, he also read that Nigeria's way of stopping him was to foul him (already fouled 5 times even drifting away of the game).

So his read of the situation is that if he sits deeper, he pulls away defenders and then Argentina has space for their efortless passes to retain the ball (thus, defending with it), he saves his stamina for key moments, he creates a superiority on the flank everytime Argentina rotates from left to right, and he also stops Nigeria from destroying his team's tempo by not allowing them to foul out argentina in the midfield area, if Nigeria foul Messi in midfield Argentina get nothing, the ref will hardly eject a Nigerian player, they will have less time to score and they will wear him down stamina-wise with the contact and the hits.

But that's not something pundits are pointing to, Camacho was saying that he needed to "take the ball from his teammates (he was doing exactly that vs Croatia, served for nothing) and just run, run and run", the worst set of tools he can bring to his team, this is the equivalent of "you need pace and physicality to win titles" that has gone so well for England NT and clubs at international level in the last decade, it's an archaic idea.

You dont have to explain to me what he does and why he doesnt run, thats not even an issue. Fact is that he runs less then anyone(without checking the data) at top level and in this tournament so in theory if he was at his best fitness wise he should be fresh all game(dribbling past 2 or not in 90 minute of the game). Im not criticizing him for not running because im aware what you achieve with that.
I still rate him as the best player in the world but its hard for me to believe he couldnt be better, faster and more fit then he actually is.

 

[Ishdalar]

Give this man a clap. Some excellent tactical analysis and observation on Messi. If there was an upvote system, I'd give you that.

Well you need some kind of critical attitude, instead of focusing on "He's not in touch with the ball, he sucks", or "He's done physically" I just started to wonder why I had those two first impressions watching him play when coaches and teammates defended him doing that, or no one was reporting knacks/injuries, then I just started to notice some things that happen when he's on the field, even not in contact with the ball.

Still, this doesn't mean that everytime he's doing that he's excelling at it or even doing it properly, there's a bunch of times he's trying to play that way and he's wrong and should be doing other things, but success/failure always takes part in everything a player can try on the field, and when he's doing that, in a way, he's relying more than usual on his teammates, so he's bound to be critized by his mistakes and the seemingly lack of desire he shows.

And that's something that has made me respect him more, the easiest way to come out looking good at individual level from the Argentina fiasco would be to run a few extra kilometer like a chicken, argue with their teammates/applaud and do all those superficial things most people like to see on players, instead he's sacrificing for his team on a level deeper than physical or mediatically, he's putting his career prestige on the line for what he thinks it's best for the team.

 

[Revan]

Good performance from him today and quite happy that Argies went through. I want the best players to go as far as possible in the tournament.

 

[Ishdalar]

You dont have to explain to me what he does and why he doesnt run, thats not even an issue. Fact is that he runs less then anyone(without checking the data) at top level and in this tournament so in theory if he was at his best fitness wise he should be fresh all game(dribbling past 2 or not in 90 minute of the game). Im not criticizing him for not running because im aware what you achieve with that.
I still rate him as the best player in the world but its hard for me to believe he couldnt be better, faster and more fit then he actually is.

Fitness wise I think he's probably 85/90% right now, I've seen him be quicker or win some physical duels this season that he's losing now but that's a different thing, running for the sake of running it's no his style, hasn't been for years, and I don't think his performances are being hurt by the amount of stamina he's had this week compared to what would be his peak form.

Even if we compared him to 2014, he might not be coming as deep as that year to link up, but he's older and the team plays differently in certain areas, it's only logical that he's not looking at the level he played in the Brazil WC in my opinion.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Fantastic goal. The two touches he took before shooting were perfection.

 

[soap]

I missed the game but I've just seen the goal which was good. How was his overall performance?

 

[Ban]

That stopping of the ball before scoring. Pure sex.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I missed the game but I've just seen the goal which was good. How was his overall performance?

Without the goal, 6/10. Because of the goal, 8/10 game.

 

[breakout67]

So much better when he is in the final third and occasionally dropping into the hole. None of this playing at the halfway line trying to beat the whole team like he has been doing for Argentina for a while.

A good performance that can hopefully be a platform for him in the knockout stages.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

First half - he was in full flow. You could tell he was up for it like the commentator said. Lovely first touch, lovely second touch and a lovely weak foot finish. Prime Messi.
Unfortunate not to bag himself a couple of assists too.

Second half he became a bit of a passenger, but still did his shift at hustling/putting pressure on Nigeria's defence.

Be interesting to see how he does against France.

 

[Daysleeper]

First half - he was in full flow. You could tell he was up for it like the commentator said. Lovely first touch, lovely second touch and a lovely weak foot finish. Prime Messi.
Unfortunate not to bag himself a couple of assists too.

Second half he became a bit of a passenger, but still did his shift at hustling/putting pressure on Nigeria's defence.

Be interesting to see how he does against France.

Kante should be all over him

 

[Donaldo]

Sjor Bepo from the internet think Lionel Messi should be better, faster, and more fit

 

[kthanksbye]

Purely from a technical standpoint, best goal of the tournament for me. Can't think of many players who can do that, at that speed, never broke stride, in fact accelerated after the second touch. Just brilliant.

Reminded me of a RvP goal in the FA cup, against WestHam, Giggs assist, if I'm not mistaken, but this was better.

 

[Donaldo]

Kante should be all over him

Like he was all over Ozil. Or Silva. Or de Bruyne. Or Sanchez. Or even fecking Sigurdsson.

Kante is excellent, but he's never going to single-handedly stop anyone.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Like he was all over Ozil. Or Silva. Or de Bruyne. Or Sanchez. Or even fecking Sigurdsson.

Kante is excellent, but he's never going to single-handedly stop anyone.

Argentina lack a second high threat playmaker so France can have Messi man marked without putting themselves in trouble of being punished by another player. Schweinsteiger man marked Messi twice out of matches, 2010 and 2014, so it can be done. Arsenal had Sanchez/Ozil, City had Silva/De Bruyne so you can't tell your best defensive midfielder to strictly mark one player and leave the other to roam freely in the final third, Argentina don't have that second threat.

 

[Donaldo]

Argentina lack a second high threat playmaker so France can have Messi man marked without putting themselves in trouble of being punished by another player. Schweinsteiger man marked Messi twice out of matches, 2010 and 2014, so it can be done. Arsenal had Sanchez/Ozil, City had Silva/De Bruyne so you can't tell your best defensive midfielder to strictly mark one player and leave the other to roam freely in the final third, Argentina don't have that second threat.

Fair enough. Think they could very well play Dybala (though they won't) to add that threat.

Banega Mascherano
Pavon Messi Dybala
Aguero

Will never happen though.

 

[SER19]

Have lost huge amounts of respect for messi in this tournament.(and lots of argentina players)

Incredible player and feel lucky to have seen him play, also mentioned on here pre tournament that id be happy to see him win it, but the rumors pre tournament that i ignored have manifested fully. To see him giving a teamtalk and his manager asking him if he should bring on a certain player during a bloody world cup tie is disgraceful. And yes, its on messi.

A true leader would have galvanised and led that team long before the tournament rather than serve up the shit he and his team have then humiliate their manager. I hope they go out badly.

 

[Donaldo]

This thread keeps giving.

 

[B20]

fabulous goal that only a few players in the world could hope to replicate, if any.

Had some good moments, but it annoys me how languid he is on the ball too often. If he went at defenders right away, instead of jogging at them before attempting to dribble, he'd be so much more menacing. Ronaldinho used to do the same and it does nothing except slow down play.

 

[B20]

A true leader would have galvanised and led that team long before the tournament rather than serve up the shit he and his team have then humiliate their manager. I hope they go out badly.

He did.

Argentina played 8 matches in qualifying without Messi and won one game, scoring 0.75 goals per game and losing to Ecuador, Paraguay and Bolivia. They drew with Venezuela. Tata Martino was sacked and so was his successor, Edgardo Bauza.

With Messi, they played 10 matches and only lost 1 (to Brazil in Belo Horizonte). They beat Chile twice, Uruguay and beat Colombia 3-0 in San Juan. In those 10 games, Messi scored seven goals (including the hattrick against Ecuador to secure Argentina’s World Cup place). Gonzalo Higuain, Sergio Aguero, Mauro Icardi, Dario Benedetto, Lucas Pratto and Lucas Alario scored three goals combined during the 18 qualifying games.

This team would be nowhere without Messi. They'd be one of the worst teams in the tournament without him, 'on paper' quality be damned.

 

[zing]

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/8u6n2o/reporter_to_messi_after_the_first_game_i_gave_you/

Lovely.

Also, https://i.redd.it/s44g77oq6h611.gif

That second touch. Privilege to be alive to watch Messi play week in week out.

 

[zing]

He did.

Argentina played 8 matches in qualifying without Messi and won one game, scoring 0.75 goals per game and losing to Ecuador, Paraguay and Bolivia. They drew with Venezuela. Tata Martino was sacked and so was his successor, Edgardo Bauza.

With Messi, they played 10 matches and only lost 1 (to Brazil in Belo Horizonte). They beat Chile twice, Uruguay and beat Colombia 3-0 in San Juan. In those 10 games, Messi scored seven goals (including the hattrick against Ecuador to secure Argentina’s World Cup place). Gonzalo Higuain, Sergio Aguero, Mauro Icardi, Dario Benedetto, Lucas Pratto and Lucas Alario scored three goals combined during the 18 qualifying games.

This team would be nowhere without Messi. They'd be one of the worst teams in the tournament without him, 'on paper' quality be damned.

Piss off with your facts.

 

[RAVred]

Anyone that says Argentina without Messi are better is surely kidding themselves.

Pundits on the channel I watched it on stated that reports in Argentina indicated that theres an arrogance within the Argentina team and that they think they can do what Messi does. Also that they dont play to him, which is definitely true. Hardly any player makes runs or picks up his runs, they use the space really poorly. Banega and him seem to have a good/decent cohesiveness to them, and thats besides the goal.



Overall his goal was quite good, and he seemed more leader-like then he has ever seemed, but his second half was somewhat poor/wasteful.

 

[B20]

Banega is the only player out there besides messi who looks up towards the final third and has a half decent idea of how to make anything happen. The rest seem to just be waiting for something to work.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Purely from a technical standpoint, best goal of the tournament for me. Can't think of many players who can do that, at that speed, never broke stride, in fact accelerated after the second touch. Just brilliant.

Bergkamp esque control. Magic

Reminded me of a RvP goal in the FA cup, against WestHam, Giggs assist, if I'm not mistaken, but this was better.

I love that goal, touch with his left and perfect slot across the keeper with his right without breaking stride.

 

[IFC 1905]

Have lost huge amounts of respect for messi in this tournament.(and lots of argentina players)

Incredible player and feel lucky to have seen him play, also mentioned on here pre tournament that id be happy to see him win it, but the rumors pre tournament that i ignored have manifested fully. To see him giving a teamtalk and his manager asking him if he should bring on a certain player during a bloody world cup tie is disgraceful. And yes, its on messi.

A true leader would have galvanised and led that team long before the tournament rather than serve up the shit he and his team have then humiliate their manager. I hope they go out badly.

Lol

And there's a lot of people like this guy in my country that believe this bullshet

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Di Marzio posting a clip about Messi instructing Aguero to come on.

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Whatever your stance on him in the grand debate, ignore the slanted views of some that it’s shithousery for a player to do such a thing and admire the tactical insight that he’s looking for here. Incredibly impressive awareness of the overall play if he genuinely has instructed that change amidst the chaos of pushing for the goal.

 

[IFC 1905]

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Here we can see how Messi is clearly not a leader

 

[In Rainbows]

Have lost huge amounts of respect for messi in this tournament.(and lots of argentina players)

Incredible player and feel lucky to have seen him play, also mentioned on here pre tournament that id be happy to see him win it, but the rumors pre tournament that i ignored have manifested fully. To see him giving a teamtalk and his manager asking him if he should bring on a certain player during a bloody world cup tie is disgraceful. And yes, its on messi.

A true leader would have galvanised and led that team long before the tournament rather than serve up the shit he and his team have then humiliate their manager. I hope they go out badly.

They gave the manager a chance. They were awful for 2 matches, and thus the players took over in the 3rd match as their tournament was on the line.

 

[SER19]

He did.

Argentina played 8 matches in qualifying without Messi and won one game, scoring 0.75 goals per game and losing to Ecuador, Paraguay and Bolivia. They drew with Venezuela. Tata Martino was sacked and so was his successor, Edgardo Bauza.

With Messi, they played 10 matches and only lost 1 (to Brazil in Belo Horizonte). They beat Chile twice, Uruguay and beat Colombia 3-0 in San Juan. In those 10 games, Messi scored seven goals (including the hattrick against Ecuador to secure Argentina’s World Cup place). Gonzalo Higuain, Sergio Aguero, Mauro Icardi, Dario Benedetto, Lucas Pratto and Lucas Alario scored three goals combined during the 18 qualifying games.

This team would be nowhere without Messi. They'd be one of the worst teams in the tournament without him, 'on paper' quality be damned.

Ya on pitch of course they're better with him. Hes a phenomenal player possibly the best ive ever seen. None of us can say for sure whats going on off pitch but its plain to see the argentina set up has been toxic long before this tournament with the likes of tim vickery saying messi has been picking the team for a long time and that he and mascherano are leading the current revolt.

Giving a team talk in view of cameras, having your boss ask you what player to bring on stinks. Stinks of ego, arrogance and single mindedness. Just my take on the current situation and if other players were seen to be doing same they would be slaughtered

 

[SER19]

Piss off with your facts.

Those facts arent being disputed

 

[Zehner]

Ya on pitch of course they're better with him. Hes a phenomenal player possibly the best ive ever seen. None of us can say for sure whats going on off pitch but its plain to see the argentina set up has been toxic long before this tournament with the likes of tim vickery saying messi has been picking the team for a long time and that he and mascherano are leading the current revolt.

Giving a team talk in view of cameras, having your boss ask you what player to bring on stinks. Stinks of ego, arrogance and single mindedness. Just my take on the current situation and if other players were seen to be doing same they would be slaughtered

Do you have any actual facts to support your accusations? I always read "Messi is too powerful in Barcelona", "Messi blackmails club and country", "Messi appoints managers", "Messi forces XYZ out", "Messi does this, Messi does that" but never something to back it up. Messi is best friends and WC room mates with Aguero, rumours ahead of the last game said that Sampaoli would bench Aguero out of pride and what happened? He didn't play although he's so close to Messi that he chose him as the godfather of his son. How on earth would that happen if Messi was the one to decide the formation and tactical approach? It is just ridiculous that people depict him as if he's the evil son of Machiavelli and James Moriarty just because some journalists create stories in order to have something to write about.

But of course, Messi chose to bench his best friend in the most important game in the group stage, he wanted Banega (the only Barca-type midfielder in the whole team) out in the first two games and preferred to play with technical geniuses like Acuna, Perez, Salvio or Mercado. He probably even bullied Di Maria to destroy his self esteem so that he plays passes a completely drunk Emile Heskey would be ashamed of. And of course Dybala being a benchwarmer hasn't anything to do with him occupying the same spaces as the best player in the world right now, Dybala being unable/unwilling to play a different position than second striker or Sampaoli just being an idiot, no, it has to be Messi not liking Paolo and thus forcing the manager to not play him. Honestly, even if he would be such a dictator, this is probably his last realistic chance of winning the WC. Do you really think he would through it away because of sympathies or anything like that?

 

[red4ever 79]

Ya on pitch of course they're better with him. Hes a phenomenal player possibly the best ive ever seen. None of us can say for sure whats going on off pitch but its plain to see the argentina set up has been toxic long before this tournament with the likes of tim vickery saying messi has been picking the team for a long time and that he and mascherano are leading the current revolt.

Giving a team talk in view of cameras, having your boss ask you what player to bring on stinks. Stinks of ego, arrogance and single mindedness. Just my take on the current situation and if other players were seen to be doing same they would be slaughtered

Messi is the greatest player of all time. Not sure how your opinions stand up. There is no one comparable to him.

 

[SER19]

Do you have any actual facts to support your accusations? I always read "Messi is too powerful in Barcelona", "Messi blackmails club and country", "Messi appoints managers", "Messi forces XYZ out", "Messi does this, Messi does that" but never something to back it up. Messi is best friends and WC room mates with Aguero, rumours ahead of the last game said that Sampaoli would bench Aguero out of pride and what happened? He didn't play although he's so close to Messi that he chose him as the godfather of his son. How on earth would that happen if Messi was the one to decide the formation and tactical approach? It is just ridiculous that people depict him as if he's the evil son of Machiavelli and James Moriarty just because some journalists create stories in order to have something to write about.

But of course, Messi chose to bench his best friend in the most important game in the group stage, he wanted Banega (the only Barca-type midfielder in the whole team) out in the first two games and preferred to play with technical geniuses like Acuna, Perez, Salvio or Mercado. He probably even bullied Di Maria to destroy his self esteem so that he plays passes a completely drunk Emile Heskey would be ashamed of. And of course Dybala being a benchwarmer hasn't anything to do with him occupying the same spaces as the best player in the world right now, Dybala being unable/unwilling to play a different position than second striker or Sampaoli just being an idiot, no, it has to be Messi not liking Paolo and thus forcing the manager to not play him. Honestly, even if he would be such a dictator, this is probably his last realistic chance of winning the WC. Do you really think he would through it away because of sympathies or anything like that?

Lets cool it with the hysterics, youve gone on a huge tangent about things that have obviously bothered you before and i have not alleged. I like messi, but my initial post was about my personal feelings based on what i have seen this tournament myself and the opinions of some well respected journalists.

"Facts/accusations" is putting an opinion on trial.

Messi is the greatest player of all time. Not sure how your opinions stand up. There is no one comparable to him.

My opinion about messi as a player have been very clear. I think hes phenomenal.

-----

I may have made a huge mistake by stepping near a messi thread for the first time ever.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Didnt they say before the game how Sampaoli lost the dressing room post Croatia game and that Mascherano and Messi will lead the team? With that in mind not sure why are people surprised Messi was asked about the sub?

 

[IFC 1905]

Didnt they say before the game how Sampaoli lost the dressing room post Croatia game and that Mascherano and Messi will lead the team??

Yeah, that's what the journalists say

Meanwhile in real life

 

[shamans]

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Here we can see how Messi is clearly not a leader

That is good leadership and must be commended but you have to say in the past he has been spineless as a leader. Maybe he is finally coming to age as a leader and he can start rallying up his players but let’s not say he’s been a good one

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Yeah, that's what the journalists say

Meanwhile in real life

So you dont think that was true? If it wasnt then Agassi is the most pathetic manager of all time.

 

[Revan]

That is good leadership and must be commended but you have to say in the past he has been spineless as a leader. Maybe he is finally coming to age as a leader and he can start rallying up his players but let’s not say he’s been a good one

Probably. Ronaldo was hardly a leader until a few years too.

A lot of top players need to develop leadership skills. Some are born with them (the likes of Keane, Zidane etc), but for some is a natural process, a skill to develop like other footballing skills.

Rojo also mentioned Messi's pep talk and that Messi asked other players to shoot more, which kind of made Rojo to shoot from a quite bad position, and eventually qualify Argentina with it.

 

[Ishdalar]

When he doesn't act like a leader he gets bashed for not doing so, when he acts like one then he's not really a leader, he's a dictator and he's humilliating the people on his team. Jesus

That is good leadership and must be commended but you have to say in the past he has been spineless as a leader. Maybe he is finally coming to age as a leader and he can start rallying up his players but let’s not say he’s been a good one

That is not good leadership, that's just him appeasing to the public eye, more exactly to what people in his country expect from him, they think "cojones" comes before everything else.

He's being pushed into a kind of leadership that just doesn't fit with him, we'll see if he can grow into it but there's more than one way to lead people and it doesn't always have to be through charisma, gestures or motivational speaking. Go back to 1940 and try to sell anyone the idea that Franco is a better leader than Mussolini, people would piss themselves in laughter at that notion, yet their legacy doesn't reflect that, and the difference gets bigger between any fascist leaders vs most democratic leaders, different styles of leading people that resort to different tools, but it doesn't mean one is superior to the other.

And there's also another factor, as @Revan just said, sometimes people aren't leaders until they need/are pushed into becoming one, when things were working out for Barcelona they had one of the best leaders in the history of the game in Puyol, then there's been always influential figures in that squad that wanted to lead and it came as second nature for them (Pique, Busquets might not strike most people as a leader but it's said he carries a ton of weight in a dressing room, Alves, Xavi, Mascherano, Suarez, Neymar). Leo or even Iniesta never had the need to lead anything and it might've been detrimental if they wanted to do so. And you can't really enter a dressing room and put yourself above guys like Zanetti or Mascherano either.