Depends how you view leadership. If we consider leading by example then there is no one who comes lose to him. If we consider a leader to be someone who is shouting, organising the team then of course this is not his personality.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Just did the lip reading and can confirm.
“Lads, we know that Rojo has good right foot, cross the ball to him and he will volley it, goal. Simple. He has good tax lawyer too, better than me.”
By walking up and down the pitch and barely moving unless the ball comes to his feet? I'm not sure about that one.
So that when the ball comes to him he can destroy teams like he has done for 12 years.....
Or do you think forwards should be like Frank Stapleton etc?
Excellent. Just came across the resemblance.
He looked pretty static the first two games, but his movement for the goal against Nigeria disproves your argument.
https://twitter.com/msceducation/status/1011710011763056641?ref_src=twsrc^tfwTweet
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It is at the very least a possibility that not all of his off-the-ball movement is caught on camera, and that may be skewing our perception of his World Cup so far. Regardless, incredible movement and awareness to free himself for his goal.
I don't know the exact definitions but you do have a point. There are many types of leadership qualities. However, one of them is leading your players when morale is down, you can't even perform that well but just have to instill that desire and passion in your team to get through to the next round.
I think that is the biggest thing I saw from Messi this game. I am full on Ronaldo fan but this is the kind of stuff that makes me think a player is great. Finally Messi is stepping up and I hope it continues. I want to see both him and Ronaldo fight it out as leaders!
So although Rojo said the pep talk helped it was just for public eye?
funniest thing is that its not only the looks, they even have the same nervous walkExcellent. Just came across the resemblance.
Actually that video kind of proves my point. He was stood almost completely still until he sniffed a goal scoring chance. Nobody is saying he doesn't have good movement when he wants to.
I have seen him live anyway, I don't need to see his off camera movement. He doesn't do much for vast portions of a game. With Barcelona he usually he doesn't have to.
There's more than one thing you can be an example of in football, you can be an example of how to have fun in the pitch, where your teammates set the bar of "ok, if he can do that I can do it too", compromise with your team, and many other things. If this sport was about running yourself out in the pitch, Messi would be a 3rd division player.
You have people calling Zidane an example of leadership, yet if you watched football on his era he was one the player that liked to walk around instead of running, I think only Rivaldo could match his lack of workrate from 90/00's superstars, why is Zidane considered a leader? Because he inspired people to play better, to be like him, and because he won a lot while being the best player in his team, that and putting an armband is usually enough to get called a great leader, but it seems that doesn't apply to Messi.
Fair enough. I've only seen him live once, and that was back in 2011 or 2012, when his game was very different to what it is now.
I jumped in to a conversation you were having with someone else, so I'm not really sure what your point was in highlighting his movement (or lack thereof). I will say that if he's going to be judged as a striker or a goal scorer, then hanging out for a while before making intelligent runs to get open in the opponent's half isn't the worst quality a top goal scorer could have. Similarly to Ronaldo, if he doesn't do much in other aspects of the game but gets himself into good areas of the pitch and finishes clinically, then he's still producing for his team. I personally think he can do more because of his passing, vision, and dribbling ability.
On leadership: I don't believe that players need to buzz about the pitch to be good leaders, but I don't think that was your point (if I'm reading your response correctly, you were rebutting someone's point without offering an alternative). I personally don't believe Messi is a great leader - in fact he's done everything in his power his entire career to stay out of the limelight and shed that sort of added responsibility. Some players are immensely talented but shouldn't be given the captain's armband.
My point is that i dont think hes a good leader based on his movement, or lack thereof. You dont need to be buzzing about the pitch everywhere but you do need to be constantly getting into positions to get the ball and trying to create things. Messi only moves when he thinks there's going to be something created for him.
I'm not Rojo and I'm not in that team, so maybe he did motivate them, maybe they felt moved by how far Leo reached out of his comfort zone to try and lead them in a way that's somewhat new for him.
I don't know, I talk from my point of view, I've been watching this guy for all of his career and I don't recall him gathering round his team to do a pep talk, that's what people have been expecting him to do, but it hasn't been his way.
The Leo I know maybe can talk to an individual player if he feels he can help him, or he'll stay alone, deeply focused (not very motivational for the media, hype-wise, but I think if you're playing with Leo Messi, and he has to be alone, concentrated to give his 100% on the match, hell, you'd feel motivated just to be with him in the pitch, that's an emotion that carries around the team), maybe Rojo thinks it helped just because they won.
Maybe Rojo felt it helped just because they won, I mean, we usually value leadership on victories, and it gets forgotten in loses, or called failure in other extreme cases, end of the day the result of a game goes well beyond the capabilites of what we call leadership in a player, it's out of their control if someone scores or misses.
As I said, that's what I thought you were saying. I haven't seen much of Barca this year or last (more last year, but La Liga is hard to watch through legit channels in the States). That's quite a different attitude than he had as recently as 2015, where he would drift across the entirety of the pitch trying to get on the ball.
He creates space, his pressence brings 2, sometimes even 3 players around him, that gives space to Mascherano, Banega and the fullbacks to try and create things, the value of space in football is vastly underrated, and thanks to people talking nonsense about Leo this World Cup the idea that he's not doing anything on the pitch get's drilled into people mind again.
Maybe if it's Henry explaining it to you, you'll believe it.
And it's not only Henry, this idea has been around for decades, Cruyff, Michels... the guy who inspired Michels whose name I've forgotten (sorry), and if you're going to say "This works for Barcelona, not for Argentina", playing with more space works for everyone, even a 5 y/o kid will move better with the ball and take better decisions if you give him 5 meteres around him, instead of 2.
Let's see how He'll perform against France.
The videos in those examples are nearly 10 years old. He is a completely different player now in a completely different team.
Well that's the whole thing. Something I have even criticized him for in the past and to see him do it is very refreshing for me. He is now 31 so maybe he is finally learning how to rally up the troops around him.
Maybe it seems like a small issue but to me there is a massive difference between "I am gonna play my best out there and if this team can't even beat Nigeria to hell with them" and "let's do this boys we can do this we have the players"
Overall, I loved Messi's attitude in this game and he truly played like a "great" player. Someone on here argued with me posting the Iceland match videos of Messi (@Zehner I think?) of how that was a good performance. Well imo, this was a much, much better performance despite the fact he got dispossessed multiple times.
The video is barely his point. He was probably the most intelligent player in the game then, forget now, with 'nearly 10 years' of experience bagged and having to change his game to allow for the fact both his teams are dependent on him as a playmaker and a scorer. Doesn't run as much as he did - but he's far more efficient with his movement that ever. Same with Ronaldo in a different way of course, poachers movement and finishers instinct with him.
A genuinely bad performance is quite rare. But because it's all about goals with him and more to the point - it's become so common to see Barca win, that when one or both of those are missing. It's seen as a bad performance straight away.
He's probably not a "character" enough to be a leader though. I mean I don't think I've ever seen him interview....well it's ultra rare. Seems very introverted and laid back - though he's not truly allowed the freedom to be that, especially on Argentina duty. He's clearly still got the epic ego - it just comes with winning and being at that level - and determination....but, just not sure.
The emphasis on a "rah-rah" mentality with regards to leadership is so backwards.
As it is in all aspects of life, you can be a leader in multiple ways.
As it is in all aspects of life, you can be a leader in multiple ways.
You should check out some extended highlights of the Ecuador game (3-1, Messi hattrick). They needed a win to qualify. It was a one-man attack (and sometimes a 1-man attack and midfield, with almost everyone else having a stinker).
These are the best I could find:
Then there's 3-2 vs Madrid at the Bernebeau at the end of the last season. Need a win to keep the title alive. Messi brace - solo goal and then 90th minute winner. Watching him in that game was like watching Zidae vs Brazil in 2006 - he was above everyone on a pitch full of superstars mostly on the opposite team. It's the day I was totally converted.These are 2 recent games I can remember where he really delivered when his team was in trouble.
There is a difference between saying he doesn't deliver and that he doesn't show the sort of leadership qualities he did vs Nigeria. He is Messi it's pretty obvious he delivers and does so in big games as well. Just seeing another kind of leadership ability from him was new to me. He needs to keep that up
If Argentina could ever find themselves a pair like Makelele and Vieira - then Messi could come out of retirement in 2022 like Zizou. Good call.
Couldn't be arsed to quote all your posts but they're all equally fecking terrible.
Nice response man. Keep the quality up and your credibility will build
Couldn't be arsed to quote all your posts but they're all equally fecking terrible.
In the Argentina game, all 3 goals are his own work, and he should have had 1-2 assists as well. For me that performance is pure leadership. I don't see how it's not really.
If you watch cricket, in these matches he was like Sachin in the 90s (not saying he's always like that).
And I wasn't as pleased by his Nigeria game (doesn't help that I saw the 1st half only on highlights). He lost the ball a lot, didn't create meaningful chances, and was bailed out by a really lucky event. If Argentina had a competent defence and 1-2 players for him to exchange passes with, he would be doing what he does best - leading by example, which for me, is a valid form of leadership.
I don't think it is an invalid form either but there is more he can do in other departments of leadership which he did vs Nigeria for me..
Bloody hell - still incredible. I remember watching the Madrid-Barca game live, and had chills when the commentator started saying "The Best there is, The better there ever has been, possibly the best there will ever will be".
Did it ever occur to you that he does it regularly, just mostly without cameras around? Like, for instance, in the dressing room? I mean, it is not like you don't see him talking with and giving instructions to young players in Barcelona. But no, because he doesn't seem like speaking up on the pitch everybody just assumes that he isn't leading at all. What I also find remarkable is that he never moans. Even if his team mates screw up easy passes that would put him in a one on one or miss the great chances he creates them, you never see him complaining. He just swallows it and goes on. Cristiano may be more emotional and polarizing and if you prefer that kind of leadership, fair enough, but you can't say that he stays positive towards his team mates when they make mistakes (especially in Real Madrid) and that definitely isn't a characteristic of good leadership, regardless of which type you prefer.
Couldn't be arsed to quote all your posts but they're all equally fecking terrible.
You should check his other post out of this thread too.
Couldn't be arsed to quote all your posts but they're all equally fecking terrible.
People on the internet thinking they know more about off the ball moment, than the greatest player of all time does..
Terrific stuff.
Terrific stuff.
Hey hey, he just started respecting Messi. If I was Leo I'd be well chuffed.
I genuinely hope he did well in this WC, even I am in Ronaldo camp. Great player like him deserves to shine in WC, and this might be his last one.
Would have given him a 3/10 but he woke up...after 85 mins. 5/10 for a great assist, a lucky assist, and drawing a few fouls, and being totally useless outside those sporadic moments.
I agree, his head seems to drop too much too.
Sad really
Spent most of the match walking around not giving a deck. I’d be interested in his distance stats because he probably looks like a goalie
I thought this was a typical game but he was also a bit ruined by the tactics asking him to be the main man in the middle of many opponents. He just doesn't have the energy/drive to take a game by the scruff of the neck, he can only deliver moments of pure class.
He looks like he gets no pleasure from playing for Argentina.
Imo he had a good game today if you don't think goals are the only thing that matters in football but it's also too easy for opponents to let two or three defensive players constantly focus on him because they know the rest of his team is pretty much useless.