Mesut Özil retires from "die Mannschaft"

[RoadTrip]

You, like many in this thread, must simply be ignorant of exactly who and what Erdogan is. He's a quasi-dictator, who has been imprisoning huge swathes of innocent citizens for political reasons and committing systematic genocide against the Kurdish people. I'm not German, so my only exposure to the backlash I've seen is from this thread and while I'm sure it's been terrible and jumped on by horrible people, that doesn't excuse Ozil's decision to pose with and in turn endorse a genocidal authoritarian.

Ergo in your view anyone who poses with him endorses him?

That would create quite the shocking list of endorsements.

Absurd view.

 

[tenpoless]

This guy talks too much crap

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Wow, what a classless cnut. Didn't expect anything better from him though.

So He's a president of one of the biggest clubs in the world? Doesn't He have better things to do? What a child.

 

[RoadTrip]

"freedom of speech" doesn't mean "freedom of consequences" and an organisation like the DFB has EVERY right to ban players if they don't behave according to the values of the organisation. I already posted that german NT players were banned for a lot less. The whole MISTAKE was not taking action in the first place and just trying to ignore the whole issue. Özil (and Gündogan) did get a lot of leeway from the DFB but it was Özil who handled it so extremely badly, he had enough opportunities to fix this thing but even in his current statement there is no regret or taking responsibility, it's all about deflecting and pointing fingers at others.
Let's be honest here, this whole thing only serves his own personal agenda and saving his international marketing appeal, there is a reason why his statement was only released in english on social media.
Özil is trying to go in the offensive here because he knows that he has no future in the german NT (and that's btw regardless of "Erdogate" because his performances have been lacking since quite some time) and now is the opportunity for him while the german FA is in a weak position.

This is just a ridiculous point of view. So biased and full of an agenda.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Not playing there was stupid but yes, I would have critized them for meeting Netanjahu. Don't act like this is hard. It's only if you lack any kind of moral compass.

Criticizing him is fine because we don't agree with it but booing him and calling him to be fired from the team? I would not have done that, that's taking away people's rights to have an opinion. There is ofcourse a line that people shouldn't cross, like supporting the worst of worst people (Hitler, KKK etc), people who have clear murderous intents in their actions. As much as I hate Netanjahu, he isn't part of that group, and either is Erdogan.

You can have a moral compass but not have to force it onto other people at the same time.

 

[ColoRed]

For comparison sakes, please give me a list of people who aren't acceptable to be taken a photo with? This seems the crux of the problem, that you are equating Ergodan to be this maniacal, murderous dictator amongst the worst people in society; which is far from the fact because many people in his own country support what he's done for his country since he came into power.

Erdogan who tries do influence and divide the turkish community in Germany; Erdogan who called Germany a nazi country a couple of times...btw ever heard of the osmanen germania ?

 

[hasanejaz88]

No, it's not. Neither in magnitude nor in any other way.

Doesn't your moral compass expand to people outside of your country who are being murdered without just cause?

 

[do.ob]

Is supporting Obama, a man responsible for the deaths of over 1000 innocent civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen comparable then? Please, cut the sanctimonious bullcrap. There are many politicians around the world who the west are happy to cuddle with, despite horrible things they have done, if it meets their interests. Germany is about to play in Qatar FFS, they did just play in Russia as well, where are the calls to boycott the tournament from the same people if you care so much about human rights and want Ozil to be fired because of a bloody picture?

The difference is that the dead on Obama's hand are seen as collateral damage of a necessary (global/western) cause (fighting ISIS), while what Erdogan does to his own citizens is seen as crimes/misdeed committed in pursuit of his own personal power and wealth.

For comparison sakes, please give me a list of people who aren't acceptable to be taken a photo with? This seems the crux of the problem, that you are equating Ergodan to be this maniacal, murderous dictator amongst the worst people in society; which is far from the fact because many people in his own country support what he's done for his country since he came into power.

So you can't be a dictator if you have a large support? I think you need a history lesson. I won't make up an arbitrary list, but endorsements of Erdogan being unacceptable is basically public consensus, as is visible by the public reaction towards the photos.

 

[Zlatattack]

No, it's not. Neither in magnitude nor in any other way.

Therein lies the problem. A butcher like Obama isn't a problem, but Erdogan is.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Look you and I condemn Israel, but if The Argentine National team had played a friendly in Tel Aviv as originally planned, perhaps even met their PM, who they be slated for it? More importantly SHOULD they be slated for it? I think it's their right to make that choice without being called baby killers, or supporters of tyranny.

Didn't they suffer a backlash and subsequently didn't play the game? You used an example which disproves your own point.

For the record Obama is a terrible person and his nobel peace prize was an absolute joke, I think you'll find that many of those in the west, including Americans hate their foreign policy and that is true of Britain too. Trump gets larger protests than the likes of Erdogan and Salmon Bin when they do state visits to the UK so to those trying to claim that this is selective western bias are talking rubbish.

 

[fcbforever]

Therein lies the problem. A butcher like Obama isn't a problem, but Erdogan is.

The difference is that the dead on Obama's hand are seen as collateral damage of a necessary (global/western) cause (fighting ISIS), while what Erdogan does to his own citizens is seen as crimes/misdeed committed in pursuit of his own personal power and wealth.

And if you are really going death toll, I doubt Obama has shit own Erdogan, but that's a different topic. War is a reality we have to live with, but we can question the reason, scale and consequences of it.

 

[Becks-7-]

Statement should have come weeks ago. At least the part of his family, which is kind of understandable. But if actually „two hearts beat in his chest“ he would have the duty to explain the whole action accordingly.

There may be people that used this picture for racism and that should never be tollerated of course. But this „president“ is taking every opportunity he can to attack Germany. Not to mention the actual policy. Özil must be dumber than you thought, if he is suprised that people are upset after that.

I think it’s Özil at his best: every one made mistakes. Apart from him of course.

I am happy that he‘s off now.

And by the way: Grindel is a c**t anyway . This job should have never been given to him after what he used to say when he was in den Bundestag.

 

[fcbforever]

Didn't they suffer a backlash and subsequently didn't play the game? You used an example which disproves your own point.

For the record Obama is a terrible person and his nobel peace prize was an absolute joke, I think you'll find that many of those in the west, including Americans hate their foreign policy and that is true of Britain too. Trump gets larger protests than the likes of Erdogan and Salmon Bin when they do state visits to the UK so to those trying to claim that this is selective western bias are talking rubbish.

Also this. But this is something that is conveniently ignored because it doesn't fit the "all criticism of us is racism"-trope. Which is a very convenient and necessary trope and one of the integral parts of authoritarian legitimations strategies in the developing world, including Pakistan.

 

[Zlatattack]

Didn't they suffer a backlash and subsequently didn't play the game? You used an example which disproves your own point.

For the record Obama is a terrible person and his nobel peace prize was an absolute joke, I think you'll find that many of those in the west, including Americans hate their foreign policy and that is true of Britain too. Trump gets larger protests than the likes of Erdogan and Salmon Bin when they do state visits to the UK so to those trying to claim that this is selective western bias are talking rubbish.

They suffered a backlash for trying to play in Jerusalem, occupied territory. Had they played in Tel Aviv, which is Israel proper, it would be unfair to have that backlash.

Look at the post below yours. You'll see it right there. Apparently Erdogans "terrorists" are Kurds and Obamas "terrorists" aren't people but collateral damage. @fcbforever is of the view that this man is "not that bad".

Less than two weeks ago, the United States conducted a drone strike over central Yemen, killing one al-Qaeda operative. The strike was the last under Obama (that we know of). The 542 drone strikes that Obama authorized killed an estimated 3,797 people, including 324 civilians. As he reportedly told senior aides in 2011: “Turns out I’m really good at killing people. Didn’t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.”

https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data

 

[mancan92]

The difference is that the dead on Obama's hand are seen as collateral damage of a necessary (global/western) cause (fighting ISIS), while what Erdogan does to his own citizens is seen as crimes/misdeed committed in pursuit of his own personal power and wealth.



So you can't be a dictator if you have a large support? I think you need a history lesson. I won't make up an arbitrary list, but endorsements of Erdogan being unacceptable is basically public consensus, as is visible by the public reaction towards the photos.

So seeing people as collateral damage for the benefit of your own benefits financially is any better? No one should take pictures with any western leader because they are mass murders.

 

[fcbforever]

They suffered a backlash for trying to play in Jerusalem, occupied territory. Had they played in Tel Aviv, which is Israel proper, it would be unfair to have that backlash.

Look at the post below yours. You'll see it right there. Apparently Erdogans "terrorists" are Kurds and Obamas "terrorists" aren't people but collateral damage. @fcbforever is of the view that this man is "not that bad".



https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data

Are you really fecking acting like nobody in the west is criticzing drone strikes in Yemen and Pakistan? Are you that delusional? And even then, do you really not see a difference between those and what is happening in Syria? and to the Kurds? Do you compare Erdogans "reforms" to seating a new judge on the SCOJ?

Unbelievable.

 

[hasanejaz88]

The difference is that the dead on Obama's hand are seen as collateral damage of a necessary (global/western) cause (fighting ISIS), while what Erdogan does to his own citizens is seen as crimes/misdeed committed in pursuit of his own personal power and wealth.



So you can't be a dictator if you have a large support? I think you need a history lesson. I won't make up an arbitrary list, but endorsements of Erdogan being unacceptable is basically public consensus, as is visible by the public reaction towards the photos.

Collateral damage. Ha! You know that if I die from one of those bombs I will officially be called a terrorist because I'm male and above 18, even if I'm just wondering the place and happen to be close to someone deemed a terrorist? Imagine how high those number of civilians woul be if those are accounted for. That was the CIA's official definition of who is a terrorist killed in those attacks, there is little verification of who they are going to kill and based on simple word of mouth. Collateral damage my ass, the US military doesn't give jacksh*t about who is getting killed. And if it's war it's justifed? Wait, I guess Erdogan should call it a war and then it's acceptable right?

And thanks for clarifying that you think Erdogan is comparable to Hitler. Wanted to confirm that.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Ergo in your view anyone who poses with him endorses him?

That would create quite the shocking list of endorsements.

Absurd view.

If you're at a family wedding and you have your picture taken with him, that is not an endorsement. If you travel to meet a political leader while he is campaigning, take a photo to be released by his party's official account and (for Gundogan to) write 'to my president' then yes that is obviously an endorsement. To suggest otherwise is absurd. All the footballers that visited were all of Turkish decent, with Emre Can declining the invitation.

Ozil is mind-bendingly ignorant at best to claim this wasn't political, because it certainly was for Erdogan.

 

[RoadTrip]

Is supporting Obama, a man responsible for the deaths of over 1000 innocent civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen comparable then? Please, cut the sanctimonious bullcrap. There are many politicians around the world who the west are happy to cuddle with, despite horrible things they have done, if it meets their interests. Germany is about to play in Qatar FFS, they did just play in Russia as well, where are the calls to boycott the tournament from the same people if you care so much about human rights and want Ozil to be fired because of a bloody picture?

The people who constantly defend the actions of the west will never ever discuss these points. To address these problems will be to understand there is no good or bad countries or people which means people in the west will no longer be able to have a hollier than thou attitude.

I am sympathetic to Ozil as can be seen by my posts but really, these two posts are a load of nonsense.

 

[fcbforever]

Ergo in your view anyone who poses with him endorses him?

That would create quite the shocking list of endorsements.

Absurd view.

It's absurd how anyone is ignoring the circumstances of that photograph. He went there solely to meet Erdogan, who was known to be on a political tour around Europe. And poor little Mesut didn't know. He just wanted to meet "his" president, who isn't his president by the way. If you are so sad that people always bring up your Turkish roots Mesut, maybe stop calling that guy "your" president.

 

[Zlatattack]

The Obama Years;

in 2016 alone, the Obama administration dropped at least 26,171 bombs. This means that every day last year, the US military blasted combatants or civilians overseas with 72 bombs; that’s three bombs every hour, 24 hours a day.

Do you really think they all killed terrorists?

in 2016, US special operators could be found in 70% of the world’s nations, 138 countries – a staggering jump of 130% since the days of the Bush administration.

How many of those countries have ISIS in them?

We only sporadically hear about civilian killings in Afghanistan, such as the tragic bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz that left 42 dead and 37 wounded.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy

According to some people, including some on this forum, this violence is okay.

 

[mancan92]

Are you really fecking acting like nobody in the west is criticzing drone strikes in Yemen and Pakistan? Are you that delusional? And even then, do you really not see a difference between those and what is happening in Syria? and to the Kurds? Do you compare Erdogans "reforms" to seating a new judge on the SCOJ?

Unbelievable.

No one has taken issue with people taken pictures with any western political figures. No one has taken such offence when sports people have taken pictures with the queen when her family represents the worst crime in the history of humanity.

 

[do.ob]

So seeing people as collateral damage for the benefit of your own benefits financially is any better? No one should take pictures with any western leader because they are mass murders.

I never said anything about financial gain. Bombing/hurting people is always bad, I think depending on the cause it can be a necessary evil, whereas persecuting your political opponents so you can increase your power and wealth is just evil without necessity - always. I'm also not saying that Western leaders are saints, I think you have to review and judge every intervention individually.

Collateral damage. Ha! You know that if I die from one of those bombs I will officially be called a terrorist because I'm male and above 18, even if I'm just wondering the place and happen to be close to someone deemed a terrorist? Imagine how high those number of civilians woul be if those are accounted for. That was the CIA's official definition of who is a terrorist killed in those attacks, there is little verification of who they are going to kill and based on simple word of mouth. Collateral damage my ass, the US military doesn't give jacksh*t about who is getting killed. And if it's war it's justifed? Wait, I guess Erdogan should call it a war and then it's acceptable right?

And thanks for clarifying that you think Erdogan is comparable to Hitler. Wanted to confirm that.

I don't have the necessary information about what the US are doing in Pakistan so I don't really have a distinct opinion on the matter.
And how did you come up with Hitler? I never mentioned him.

 

[fcbforever]

No one has taken issue with people taken pictures with any western political figures. No one has taken such offence when sports people have taken pictures with the queen when her family represents the worst crime in the history of humanity.

What a load of horsehit. What exactly is the queen responsible for? Mistreating her corgies?

I shouldn't take photos with Merkel probably, maybe Adolf Hitler was her 5th cousin twice removed!

 

[mancan92]

I am sympathetic to Ozil as can be seen by my posts but really, these two posts are a load of nonsense.

Sure maybe for some who doesn't wants to believe his country is better than anyone elses

 

[Vidyoyo]

Perhaps this is an obvious point to make but one thing I tend to find about Western media is that their vitriol converges on one whether the political figure has an issue with the press and/or has been known to attempt to curb press freedom.

There are arguably many reasons to dislike Erdogan but part of me is sure his treatment of journalists is the major reason he's portrayed as he is (as people have suggested, he was seemingly considered a benign figure prior to 2016).

 

[mancan92]

What a load of horsehit. What exactly is the queen responsible for? Mistreating her corgies?

Her family is responsible for the british empire. Which caused the worst atrocities in the history of humanity.

 

[fcbforever]

Her family is responsible for the british empire. Which caused the worst atrocities in the history of humanity.

Thats a dumb statement on three fronts. 1: you are not responsible for your ancestors crimes. 2: Britain being a parliamentary monarchy, said monarchy had rather little influence on the emergence of the British Empire. Thats down on the East India company and a whole row of elected prime ministers. 3: yeah about that whole "worst atrocities thing"....I think that trophy has to go elsewhere, sorry.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

What a load of horseshit. I‘m not a fan of either, but acting like they are comparable is just stupid.

They are comparable. Any US president from my lifetime is worse than Erdogan ever will be. They should all be rotting somewhere in a prison cell for their war crimes. As I said earlier in the thread, it is just Western hypocrisy.

 

[mancan92]

I never said anything about financial gain. Bombing/hurting people is always bad, I think depending on the cause it can be a necessary evil, whereas persecuting your political opponents so you can increase your power and wealth is just evil without necessity. I'm also not saying that Western leaders are saints, I think you have to review and judge every intervention individually.



I don't have the necessary information about what the US are doing in Pakistan so I don't really have a distinct opinion on the matter.
And how did you come up with Hitler? I never mentioned him.

Why did America and Britian go to war on iraq? Why are Americans currently fighting Isis? (An organisation they funded to overthrown the government so they can put who ever they want in power) The reason is always power and money,

 

[fcbforever]

They are comparable. Any US president from my lifetime is worse than Erdogan ever will be. They should all be rotting somewhere in a prison cell for their war crimes. As I said earlier in the thread, it is just Western hypocrisy.

Okay, I would say it's eastern victimization. Compelling arguments, let's discuss!

Seriously though, do you even know Erdogan?

 

[africanspur]

Her family is responsible for the british empire. Which caused the worst atrocities in the history of humanity.

I mean objectively....this just isn't even slightly true.

 

[fcbforever]

Why did America and Britian go to war on iraq? Why are Americans currently fighting Isis? (An organisation they funded to overthrown the government so they can put who ever they want in power) The reason is always power and money,

This "America funded ISIS" stuff is also some kind of Trump lie some people REALLY like to believe isn't it?

 

[RoadTrip]

If you're at a family wedding and you have your picture taken with him, that is not an endorsement. If you travel to meet a political leader while he is campaigning, take a photo to be released by his party's official account and (for Gundogan to) write 'to my president' then yes that is obviously an endorsement. To suggest otherwise is absurd. All the footballers that visited were all of Turkish decent, with Emre Can declining the invitation.

Ozil is mind-bendingly ignorant at best to claim this wasn't political, because it certainly was for Erdogan.

1. Why are we talking about Gundogan’s statement when we are talking about Ozil? Odd. But we both know why you’d slipped it in.

2. Why are we mentioning the fact Can declined? No relevance.

3. I absolutely agree Ozil is naive to have that photo, if he truly thought it had no implications or would have no impact. I said that in my previous posts.

Bottom line is this. Everyone has handled this poorly so let’s not jump in at anyone’s defence. But honestly Ozil has a right to do and support who he wants and DfB have the right to ban or discipline someone who doesn’t comply with their overall ethos. The issue here is that posing for a picture itself is stupidly naive but shouldn’t override what he’s done for the country. Does one view mean he isn’t German or should not be treated with respect? Also regardless of circumstance, being in a picture in my view is not a unilateral endorsement for all his actions. Other issue is how DfB handled it. If you believe this is against your ethos then go ahead and deal with it properly. If you want to ban him, go ahead and do it. But if you want to keep selecting him for your team, then better deal with it another way then get back to playing football and putting it behind you.

 

[hasanejaz88]

I am sympathetic to Ozil as can be seen by my posts but really, these two posts are a load of nonsense.

I'm in no way saying Obama is evil, my point is that if you want to argue that Erdogan is some heinous person and taking a picture with him should mean you're sacked, then why not put the same standards to other politicans?

Obama had done a lot of good for his own country, but his foreign policy was absolutely atrocious. From cowardly drone bombing to supporting bloody coups in Libya and Syria (the wrong way, thereby empowering ISIS). Erdogan has done alot of wrong as well but it's stupid to ignore all the good he has done and equate him with some of the worst people in the world.

 

[africanspur]

This statement of his clearly shows Özil believes that. He is not the only one being so delusion in the NT, Kroos is amongst the worst offenders there, but still.

And nobody has as many brainless instagram idiots as Özil. Especially from outside the country. And this is the important part: nobody in Germany will ever vote in that poll. It was always an PR instrument pushed by foreign PR agencies. It has no heritage (it only exists since 2010), participation is shitty and nobody gives a feck about it. Ask anyone in Germany about it and nobody will know it. We have a POTY award that's widely recognized and Özil never won that.

Fine, Ozil didn't win, he was a poor player for Germany and should have been dropped sooner.

I don't think his statement shows that at all. It shows someone who has been hurt by the attacks thrown his way, some of it potentially racial in origin and clearly he feels well over the top. He is not the first European player of a non European heritage to note the media's (and some fans') ability to selectively remember that heritage depending on actions or current form and I'm sure he won't be the last.

Simply dismissing it as Ozil seeing racism only because of criticism is, in my opinion, quite irresponsible.

Incidentally, has Ozil ever complained of racism in Germany before?

 

[mancan92]

This "America funded ISIS" stuff is also some kind of Trump lie some people REALLY like to believe isn't it?

No it isn't. There is loads and loads of articles of truth money transactions, convoy swapping, clear american branded weaponry etc etc. Honestly I can't be bothered to send you all the articles google is there for you. Unless you would rather just believe the west is never doing anything wrong.

 

[fcbforever]

1. Why are we talking about Gundogan’s statement when we are talking about Ozil? Odd. But we both know why you’d slipped it in.

2. Why are we mentioning the fact Can declined? No relevance.

3. I absolutely agree Ozil is naive to have that photo, if he truly thought it had no implications or would have no impact. I said that in my previous posts.

Bottom line is this. Everyone has handled this poorly so let’s not jump in at anyone’s defence. But honestly Ozil has a right to do and support who he wants and DfB have the right to ban or discipline someone who doesn’t comply with their overall ethos. The issue here is that posing for a picture itself is stupidly naive but shouldn’t override what he’s done for the country. Does one view mean he isn’t German or should not be treated with respect? Also regardless of circumstance, being in a picture in my view is not a unilateral endorsement for all his actions. Other issue is how DfB handled it. If you believe this is against your ethos then go ahead and deal with it properly. If you want to ban him, go ahead and do it. But if you want to keep selecting him for your team, then better deal with it another way then get back to playing football and putting it behind you.

Can is absolutely relevant, as is Gündogan, because it pretty clearly shows what Özil could have done differently. Instead he blames anyone but himself. Yes, there's a lot of others to blame here, but Özil isn't just a victim here. He has brought this onto himself in a lot of ways.

 

[Hellboy]

Shocking comments from Hoeness to add fuel to the fire. What a wanker.

 

[RoadTrip]

It's absurd how anyone is ignoring the circumstances of that photograph. He went there solely to meet Erdogan, who was known to be on a political tour around Europe. And poor little Mesut didn't know. He just wanted to meet "his" president, who isn't his president by the way. If you are so sad that people always bring up your Turkish roots Mesut, maybe stop calling that guy "your" president.

As far as I’m aware Ozil did not say that.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Okay, I would say it's eastern victimization. Compelling arguments, let's discuss!

Seriously though, do you even know Erdogan?

I know enough about him to call him a dictator with fascist tendencies. What's your point though? I wasn't defending Erdogan in any way. I said that US presidents like Bush or Obama are way worse as the only real measurement I use for assessing them is how many innocent people they have killed around the world, not what they think about freedom of speech or climate change. So Özil being criticised for meeting Erdogan is blatant Western hypocrisy as the same outrage would have never happened if some other player met one of the 'good guys', i.e. a Western leader.