True greats who aren't remembered as such: The fall guys of football?

[Fortitude]

Just seen the Baggio clip in the death of Peter Brackley thread and was reminded of his legend and the unfortunate legacy left behind based solely on a missed penalty.

I realise Baggio is one of those players only those who saw play or have a genuine interest in finding out about greats of the past, will ever truly appreciate how special a player he was. There's now a grown generation who have probably only seen brief clips of him or some dismissive footnote who have no idea he was one of the world's truly great players and the forerunning attacker in the greatest period of time any European league has or will most likely ever have.

Romario basically took the majority of the plaudits for the 1994 World Cup, whilst Baggio, who was arguably the best player of the tournament, was pilloried and given nowhere near his due, like say a Cruyff or Puskas got for ending a WC in exactly the same runners-up position. But for a single penalty, Baggio's legacy was reduced to nothingness relative to the pantheon he'd effortlessly be mentioned in the same breath as without that penalty miss.

I'm not sure there's been a bigger fall guy in the game's history than Baggio.

Do you think you can come up with any? Outside of him, who do you feel have been the most brutally and unfairly treated in terms of the post-career regard they are held in?

 

[Tostao_80]

Just seen the Baggio clip in the death of Peter Brackley thread and was reminded of his legend and the unfortunate legacy left behind based solely on a missed penalty.

I realise Baggio is one of those players only those who saw play or have a genuine interest in finding out about greats of the past, will ever truly appreciate how special a player he was. There's now a grown generation who have probably only seen brief clips of him or some dismissive footnote who have no idea he was one of the world's truly great players and the forerunning attacker in the greatest period of time any European league has or will most likely ever have.

Romario basically took the majority of the plaudits for the 1994 World Cup, whilst Baggio, who was arguably the best player of the tournament, was pilloried and given nowhere near his due, like say a Cruyff or Puskas got for ending a WC in exactly the same runners-up position. But for a single penalty, Baggio's legacy was reduced to nothingness relative to the pantheon he'd effortlessly be mentioned in the same breath as without that penalty miss.

I'm not sure there's been a bigger fall guy in the game's history than Baggio.

Do you think you can come up with any? Outside of him, who do you feel have been the most brutally and unfairly treated in terms of the post-career regard they are held in?

Not sure that he’s not regarded as a great, he is. But you’re right, that penalty miss did cloud over the great tournament he’d had at that time. Incredible player.

 

[Fortitude]

Not sure that he’s not regarded as a great, he is. But you’re right, that penalty miss did cloud over the great tournament he’d had at that time. Incredible player.

He's absolutely nowhere near as revered as he should be, and it's more telling as the years go by and you barely hear his name mentioned outside of very niche discussions. On an alternate timeline where that penalty went in, he's one of the timeless masters of the game!

I don't follow the drafts on here much, but in them, how far down is he, for example?

 

[Hound Dog]

Whats funny regarding Baggio is the spin the media put on his penalty miss. They were already behind when he blasted it over so it's not like he cost Italy the cup single-handedly.

 

[Fortitude]

Whats funny regarding Baggio is the spin the media put on his penalty miss. They were already behind when he blasted it over so it's not like he cost Italy the cup single-handedly.

I don't think I've seen a bigger hatchet job on a player than what Baggio got post-WC. Beckham, Rooney, C.Ronaldo got stick post major tournaments and so did Brazil's 1950 team, but none of them were singled out as the sole reason a nation went out. Even worse that Baggio was as close to a one-man band attacker as you get in great World Cup runs outside of Maradona in '86.

His WC '94 was exceptional.

 

[Lay]

He was just before my time - the first match I ever saw was the 94 World Cup final so I don't remember him greatly apart from the miss. However the Italian guys at work regard him as the best Italian player ever.

 

[simplyared]

Beck's career suffered after this. Certainly played a part in the way people evaluate him looking back at his career. Should be up there with the best!

 

[Raees]

He was just before my time - the first match I ever saw was the 94 World Cup final so I don't remember him greatly apart from the miss. However the Italian guys at work regard him as the best Italian player ever.

I'd have Meazza at number one. Then I'd put Baresi at second, followed by likes of Scirea and Facchetti/Maldini.

After those defensive powerhouses, I would put Rivera and Baggio down as the second and third best Italian attackers of all time. Both were a different gravy to Del Piero and Totti IMO.

 

[Raees]

Beck's career suffered after this. Certainly played a part in the way people evaluate him looking back at his career. Should be up there with the best!

Disagree completely. It drove him to greatness - without that moment spurring him on and giving him a gateway into worldwide fame (even if it was notoriety) he wouldn't have been half the legend he became.

 

[Hound Dog]

He doesnt really qualify as a true great, but Predrag Mijatovic was voted the second-best player playing in Europe in 98 (second to Ronaldo) and scored the only goal in the CL final. A lot was expected of him and Yugoslavia in that year's WC and then he does this in the knock out game vs the Netherlands, with the scores 1:1 :


Davids scored in stoppage time to send Netherlands through and Mijatovic was absolutely crucified by the domestic media. His miss is probably the most iconic moment of Yugoslavian football since Red Star's European Cup win in 1991.

 

[Denis79]

I don't think I've seen a bigger hatchet job on a player than what Baggio got post-WC. Beckham, Rooney, C.Ronaldo got stick post major tournaments and so did Brazil's 1950 team, but none of them were singled out as the sole reason a nation went out. Even worse that Baggio was as close to a one-man band attacker as you get in great World Cup runs outside of Maradona in '86.

His WC '94 was exceptional.

He is in my opinion one of the best italian players of all time, atleast of the ones I've seen.

 

[harms]

I think he’s one of the very few universally liked footballers, don’t think that I’ve met anyone who saw him play and didn’t like him. Not sure how underrated he is, personally I don’t think that he is but I don’t know the views of general fans well enough.

He’s rightly mentioned as one of Italy’s greatest players (and arguably the greatest attacker, especially since Meazza played in a pre-TV era) ahead of other modern greats like Totti and Del Piero.

Perhaps if you think that Italy winning that World Cup would’ve elevated him to the likes of Cruyff and Cristiano, you may have a point, but for me he would’ve still been in a tier below. Absolute genius though.

 

[Denis79]

He doesnt really qualify as a true great, but Predrag Mijatovic was voted the second-best player playing in Europe in 98 (second to Ronaldo) and scored the only goal in the CL final. A lot was expected of him and Yugoslavia in that year's WC and then he does this in the knock out game vs the Netherlands, with the scores 1:1 :


Davids scored in stoppage time to send Netherlands true and Mijatovic was absolutely crucified by the domestic media. His miss is probably the most iconic moment of Yugoslavian football since Red Star's European Cup win in 1991.

Somehow we always got the Dutch.

Edit - Got to play the Dutch. Whatever tournament I always knew the Dutch were waiting somewhere on the way. Or Argentina.

 

[Righteous Steps]

I think he’s one of the very few universally liked footballers, don’t think that I’ve met anyone who saw him play and didn’t like him. Not sure how underrated he is, personally I don’t think that he is but I don’t know the views of general fans well enough.

He’s rightly mentioned as one of Italy’s greatest players (and arguably the greatest attacker, especially since Meazza played in a pre-TV era) ahead of other modern greats like Totti and Del Piero.

Perhaps if you think that Italy winning that World Cup would’ve elevated him to the likes of Cruyff and Cristiano, you may have a point, but for me he would’ve still been in a tier below. Absolute genius though.

I think thats his point, would never have Baggio a tier below Cruyff and Ronaldo, not a chance, talent wise he was ahead of Cristiano and on par with Cruyff, the greatest European player of his generation I think his name should be bandied in the same regards as Platini Cruyff Cristiano and Eusebio without hesitation.

 

[giorno]

Maybe because i'm italian and when i started following football Baggio was a God over here, but, uh????

Hatchet job after the penalty miss?

What screwed Baggio was his knees, not that penalty miss. He's still almost universally considered the best italian player since Valentino Mazzola though, and a true all time great

 

[harms]

I think thats his point, would never have Baggio a tier below Cruyff and Ronaldo, not a chance, talent wise he was ahead of Cristiano and on par with Cruyff, the greatest European player of his generation I think his name should be bandied in the same regards as Platini Cruyff Cristiano and Eusebio without hesitation.

He never was as dominant for a prolonged period of time as Cruyff or Cristiano were. There were many reasons to it, but his relatively underwhelming club career does him more harm than that penalty. You can argue that talent-wise he’s up there, but you can’t really compare his dedication to that of Ronaldo’s, for example, and he was terribly unlucky with the injuries.

 

[Raees]

I think thats his point, would never have Baggio a tier below Cruyff and Ronaldo, not a chance, talent wise he was ahead of Cristiano and on par with Cruyff, the greatest European player of his generation I think his name should be bandied in the same regards as Platini Cruyff Cristiano and Eusebio without hesitation.

Baggio was good but he was never Cruyff level even in his absolute prime.

Cruyff proved his mettle in the European cup too and his mind for the game was another level not to mention athletically and tactically more versatile and more faster, powerful.

Platini also to my mind was a greater genius.

I’d say Baggio was more intelligent than Cristiano but Ronaldo hunger to win and his explosiveness and sheer goal threat is another level.

Baggio winning the World Cup would definitely enhance his legacy no question but even taking that World Cup out of the equation the rest of his achievements didn’t really stack up for him to be considered top ten of all time level. Even just based on eye test his quality of play doesn’t come top 5 attackers for me.. Pele, Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, R9 ... they would trump him easily.

 

[Kasper]

Maybe not "true great" (although thats hard to define for me) but Bernd Schneider doesn't get the credit he deserves. He goes under the radar because he played for Leverkusen in a time where the Bundesliga had a low profile and the German NT was in a dark time but for me he was after Ballack the only bright light in those early 00s. Barely remembered because he never won something as Leverkusen was famous for being eternal second but he was an integral part for teams that reached the CL final and the WC final.

Couldn't find much footage but he probably would've gotten Man of the match in WC final against Brazil if Germany had won:
(be prepared for annoying music)

 

[Sky1981]

I think he’s one of the very few universally liked footballers, don’t think that I’ve met anyone who saw him play and didn’t like him. Not sure how underrated he is, personally I don’t think that he is but I don’t know the views of general fans well enough.

He’s rightly mentioned as one of Italy’s greatest players (and arguably the greatest attacker, especially since Meazza played in a pre-TV era) ahead of other modern greats like Totti and Del Piero.

Perhaps if you think that Italy winning that World Cup would’ve elevated him to the likes of Cruyff and Cristiano, you may have a point, but for me he would’ve still been in a tier below. Absolute genius though.

Sometimes the different in class is a thin red line, winning the world cup really will paint a different story. He's that good to begin with.

 

[Sky1981]

Maybe because i'm italian and when i started following football Baggio was a God over here, but, uh????

Hatchet job after the penalty miss?

What screwed Baggio was his knees, not that penalty miss. He's still almost universally considered the best italian player since Valentino Mazzola though, and a true all time great

Speaking of italy. You really have no stand out genious after baggio. Or did i miss anyone?

I meant someone the level of baresi maldini where nobody disputed them being world classest of the world class.

 

[red4ever 79]

Bryan Robson. Phenomenal midfielder player who represented us through our barren years. If he had been around a decade or even 5 years later when we were successful would have had more recognition.

 

[Halds]

Speaking of italy. You really have no stand out genious after baggio. Or did i miss anyone?

I meant someone the level of baresi maldini where nobody disputed them being world classest of the world class.

Pirlo, Cannavaro, Nesta, Totti, del Piero have all been close. Balotelli looked like the real deal at an early point. But yeah.. None italian has been up there since imo, despite winning the WC in '06

 

[pacifictheme]

Whats funny regarding Baggio is the spin the media put on his penalty miss. They were already behind when he blasted it over so it's not like he cost Italy the cup single-handedly.

Eh? Its noy like thry were out of it. He cracked under pressure. Simple as.

And its definitely destroyed his reputation for sure. In my mind hes del piero level. Hardly an insult but some people here clearly see him as far more.

 

[Adisa]

Del Piero.

 

[Sky1981]

Pirlo, Cannavaro, Nesta, Totti, del Piero have all been close. Balotelli looked like the real deal at an early point. But yeah.. None italian has been up there since imo, despite winning the WC in '06

Oh they're good. But none is head above the rest. From that list i can say cannavaro albeit for only a small period of time.

Pirlo wasnt all that if it wasnt for him doing it in his near 40. Still a crackling player though.

Del pierro never really push for that final push due to injury, totti was a big fish in Roma pond.

Lots of great players mind you, but not one undisputed best players of italy comes to mind in the last 20 years after baggio and baresi era.

Buffon certainly cuts it for me although his positions as a gk is always underrated in this kinds of debate.

Sweden has zlatan, poland has lewandowski, spain has xavi and inniesta, but italy has a great team with no stand out individual

 

[giorno]

Speaking of italy. You really have no stand out genious after baggio. Or did i miss anyone?

I meant someone the level of baresi maldini where nobody disputed them being world classest of the world class.

Pirlo? Totti?

 

[giorno]

Oh they're good. But none is head above the rest. From that list i can say cannavaro albeit for only a small period of time.

Pirlo wasnt all that if it wasnt for him doing it in his near 40. Still a crackling player though.

Del pierro never really push for that final push due to injury, totti was a big fish in Roma pond.

Lots of great players mind you, but not one undisputed best players of italy comes to mind in the last 20 years after baggio and baresi era.

Buffon certainly cuts it for me although his positions as a gk is always underrated in this kinds of debate.

Sweden has zlatan, poland has lewandowski, spain has xavi and inniesta, but italy has a great team with no stand out individual

you really should watch Euro 2000 or Germany 2006 again then

And Pirlo wasn't all that, sure, just one of the 3 best CM of the last 20 years...

 

[Sky1981]

you really should watch Euro 2000 or Germany 2006 again then

And Pirlo wasn't all that, sure, just one of the 3 best CM of the last 20 years...

That's a bold claim when you have zidane, keane, scholes, ronaldinho, modric, kaka, and the gang. Even baggio fits that criteria if you put attacking midfielder as cm.

 

[harms]

Bryan Robson. Phenomenal midfielder player who represented us through our barren years. If he had been around a decade or even 5 years later when we were successful would have had more recognition.

Good call. The way he raised his game when he faced all-time great talents like Maradona, Platini and Laudrup who were playing for superior teams was incredible. His trophy cabinet does not at all reflect his level.

 

[giorno]

That's a bold claim when you have zidane, keane, scholes, ronaldinho, modric, kaka, and the gang. Even baggio fits that criteria if you put attacking midfielder as cm.

Zidane, Kaka, Dinho were not CM. Keane, modric and scholes are comfortably lesser players. This is a united board and people will disagree, but, well, try putting this question anywhere else. Pirlo is widely regarded within the sport at a level comparable to Xavi and Iniesta

 

[harms]

That's a bold claim when you have zidane, keane, scholes, ronaldinho, modric, kaka, and the gang. Even baggio fits that criteria if you put attacking midfielder as cm.

Ronaldino, Kaka were not central midfielders by any possible definition. Zidane is a big stretch. The competition is still fierce (Xavi, Iniesta, Scholes, Keane, Redondo, Vieira, Modric, Seedorf etc.), but Pirlo definitely has a claim to be one of the first names on that list in all metrics — be it talent, achievements or longevity.

 

[Schneckerl]

Baggio gets too much flak for that, Italy already missed 2 penalties and one was missed by Baresi. You never hear a word about it when talking about him.
What scews him over were his injuries afterwards, just look at his club career.

 

[Hound Dog]

Eh? Its noy like thry were out of it. He cracked under pressure. Simple as.

And its definitely destroyed his reputation for sure. In my mind hes del piero level. Hardly an insult but some people here clearly see him as far more.

They were not out of it but it is absurd to have him as the main culprit if they were already behind.

Let me put it this way. I was born in 1988 and dont remember the 94 world cup. From what I read about Baggio's infamous miss ("he cost Italy the WC" and similar stuff), I thought that it was 5-4 to Brazil or something when he missed a sudden death penalty.

I was under that impression for years, and only after watching the shootout myself did I learn the truth.

 

[antohan]

I don't think I've seen a bigger hatchet job on a player than what Baggio got post-WC. Beckham, Rooney, C.Ronaldo got stick post major tournaments and so did Brazil's 1950 team, but none of them were singled out as the sole reason a nation went out. Even worse that Baggio was as close to a one-man band attacker as you get in great World Cup runs outside of Maradona in '86.

His WC '94 was exceptional.

I've never held that miss against him. You are absolutely right that had Italy won (even if he missed but, say, Baresi didn't) there would be far more recognition for the stonkingly great tourno he had. He was entirely all alone by himself most of the time.

That said, his career choices didn't help him either. He was at his peak at Juve while Milan were the top side in Europe, then switches to Milan as they fall on their arse and Juve's team crystalises and reaches three CL finals in a row, then has an extended Indian Summer playing for the likes of Bologna and Brescia in "big man-little man" partnerships either side of a meh stint at Inter.

His only relevance in club football was at Juve before that World Cup so his wider exposure sort of ended with that miss. Makes it a double whammy if you know what I mean.

 

[Matt007a]

I always thought Michael Laudrup should have been better remembered. I know he's considered a great player, but talent wise he's arguably in the top 10 of all time. When people talk about that Barcelona dream team, they tend to think of Romario first.

Arguably a better footballer than Zidane, but without the big game mentality.

 

[Grande]

He doesnt really qualify as a true great, but Predrag Mijatovic was voted the second-best player playing in Europe in 98 (second to Ronaldo) and scored the only goal in the CL final. A lot was expected of him and Yugoslavia in that year's WC and then he does this in the knock out game vs the Netherlands, with the scores 1:1 :


Davids scored in stoppage time to send Netherlands through and Mijatovic was absolutely crucified by the domestic media. His miss is probably the most iconic moment of Yugoslavian football since Red Star's European Cup win in 1991.

Some good old friends of ours involved in that pen

Nothing is more futile than discussing over- and underratedness, but Baggio was an intersting guy, Bhuddist, and Madonna rated him has the most sexy Italian man in her day.

I don’t know if one mistake on the pitch ever ruined a man’s carreer more than it did with Andrés ‘El Caballero’ Escobar.

 

[Halds]

I always thought Michael Laudrup should have been better remembered. I know he's considered a great player, but talent wise he's arguably in the top 10 of all time. When people talk about that Barcelona dream team, they tend to think of Romario first.

Arguably a better footballer than Zidane, but without the big game mentality.

I think Laudrups legacy has been a bit tarnished because he never achieved anything at Euros or World Cups. Had he been a part of the Euros in '92, he probably would have won the ballon d'or that year, when Barca also won their first European Cup. He was the best player in Cruyffs Barcelona, hands down.

 

[Raees]

I would suggest Paul Ince - for me he was a colossus for England, both in Euro 96 and World Cup 98 - our best performances quality wise in terms of midfield play I have seen in the modern era and he was at the heart of the sides.

Likewise he was instrumental for United in the early nineties but because is his fallout with Fergie and having to go abroad and come back into a dysfunctional Liverpool side - he’s never really spoken about as what a great English midfielder he was.

He’s more known as Paul Ince for just his outspokenness and his ‘character’ rather than what a good footballer he was.

 

[shamans]

Beckham at his peak was the greatest crosses of the football I’ve ever seen. I think he doesn’t get credit because of his celebrity side of things.

What’s funny is for being your “famous footballer” he had incredible workrate

 

[Apokalips]

Beck's career suffered after this. Certainly played a part in the way people evaluate him looking back at his career. Should be up there with the best!

Becks turned it around and became England's hero. I think his celebrity and moving to Spain actually took away from people here remembering he was an incredible player.

I don't think I've seen a bigger hatchet job on a player than what Baggio got post-WC. Beckham, Rooney, C.Ronaldo got stick post major tournaments and so did Brazil's 1950 team, but none of them were singled out as the sole reason a nation went out. Even worse that Baggio was as close to a one-man band attacker as you get in great World Cup runs outside of Maradona in '86.

His WC '94 was exceptional.

Beckham most certainly was blamed as the only reason. His treatment post WC was horrendous and people seemingly forgot that the game went to penalties or anything.