The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

Is Mourinho’s time as United manager up?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2,296 77.1%
  • No

    Votes: 293 9.8%
  • Not yet - needs more time to see if he can turn it around

    Votes: 388 13.0%

  • Total voters
    2,977
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Bilbo

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He seems to be vocally claiming that he instructs quicker start to games and higher presses though.

Its obviously not working yet clearly!
Its just more manipulation from Jose:

If he is demanding that his team press higher and start games with more energy, and they are clearly not doing so, it just adds more fuel to the belief that he has lost the dressing room. The players are not listening to him.

It also highlights the problem with his 'play each game as it comes' philosophy. He builds his teams and buys his players based around what they will do for him defensively. To then start asking them to press further up the field (a) takes a considerable amount of time to get good at and (b) requires the right personnel.

Its laughable to watch this team try to press. Some do, others don't. The ones that do find themselves passed around and out of position up the field. Happened dozens of times against City. Imagine being Rashford or Martial in this team. You are asked to press, you try to follow the managers instructions but when you get bypassed you turn around and see that no-one else is doing it. As a result, you've let the full back go past you and you're out of the team! Talk about conflicting instructions - and we wonder why this team has no structure.
 

ash_86

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Well, do you think that if the next manager fails, it would vindicate Jose? Absolutely not. Just as Jose flopping doesn't vindicate LvG or Moyes, the next manager failing won't vindicate Jose.

Ed is at fault, but only 50% of the blame is his. Our squad isn't worse than Brighton or West Ham. Anyway, seems like you are hoping we would fail just to ensure your idol Jose keeps his rep intact.

Choosing the right manager is paramount. Mourinho is the wrong manager. So is Zidane IMO. Not sure about Pochettino, his constant comments about domestic cups not being important don't sound great, his European record bar last season is dodgy and his teams don't play champagne football as the myth goes.

Ironically, the only manager that ticks all the boxes is Conte -- and with him, we would still have a defensive style of play.
OMG stop this shit. We lost cause we were shit against them. City lost to wigan last year and that doesn't mean Wigan has better squad. I mean come on, why is this point even brought up? You have seen bigger clubs loose to smaller clubs before right?
 

Greck

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Its just more manipulation from Jose:

If he is demanding that his team press higher and start games with more energy, and they are clearly not doing so, it just adds more fuel to the belief that he has lost the dressing room. The players are not listening to him.

It also highlights the problem with his 'play each game as it comes' philosophy. He builds his teams and buys his players based around what they will do for him defensively. To then start asking them to press further up the field (a) takes a considerable amount of time to get good at and (b) requires the right personnel.

Its laughable to watch this team try to press. Some do, others don't. The ones that do find themselves passed around and out of position up the field. Happened dozens of times against City. Imagine being Rashford or Martial in this team. You are asked to press, you try to follow the managers instructions but when you get bypassed you turn around and see that no-one else is doing it. As a result, you've let the full back go past you and you're out of the team! Talk about conflicting instructions - and we wonder why this team has no structure.
The high pressing I see us attempting is this compromised type where only the attackers press and the midfielders are quick to drop off. Like Jose wants to press to appease the fans but still wants to stick with his typical style so we're left with his halfway attempt. Also no manager that wants to commit to a high press will heavily feature immobile midfielders like Matic and Fellaini.
 

Kapardin

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OMG stop this shit. We lost cause we were shit against them. City lost to Wigan last year and that doesn't mean Wigan has better squad. I mean come on, why is this point even brought up? You have seen bigger clubs loose to smaller clubs before right?
There's a difference in the way City lose the odd game and we lose abysmally to fodder.

Let's get the difference between us and City - City lose to Wigan occasionally and maybe to a top team at times. We lose to both lesser teams and top teams quite frequently and can't string together more than a 3 game run of wins.
 

Judas

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Why are so many grown adults on here making stuff up to try and win arguments with complete strangers? All that guff about Jose list based on absolutely nothing but terrible online sources :lol:
 

BlueHaze

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I have so much ammo lined up to taunt some of our fans tbh. It could get pretty messy.
The entire last 15 pages have been you doing nothing but posting daft statements of calamitous proportions trying to get attention. Havn't you taunted us enough already with your neanderthal statements like "Real fans blame Woodward and Glazers, plastic fans blame Mourinho" Or how about my personal favorite "Zidane had nothing to do with real winning 3 CL in a row" I had been lurking on here since ages and I already knew it was toxic but that it was allowed to troll like this I could never imagine. Why must you do this here when RAWK exists?
 

VP89

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Its just more manipulation from Jose:

If he is demanding that his team press higher and start games with more energy, and they are clearly not doing so, it just adds more fuel to the belief that he has lost the dressing room. The players are not listening to him.

It also highlights the problem with his 'play each game as it comes' philosophy. He builds his teams and buys his players based around what they will do for him defensively. To then start asking them to press further up the field (a) takes a considerable amount of time to get good at and (b) requires the right personnel.

Its laughable to watch this team try to press. Some do, others don't. The ones that do find themselves passed around and out of position up the field. Happened dozens of times against City. Imagine being Rashford or Martial in this team. You are asked to press, you try to follow the managers instructions but when you get bypassed you turn around and see that no-one else is doing it. As a result, you've let the full back go past you and you're out of the team! Talk about conflicting instructions - and we wonder why this team has no structure.
I think our training generally looks piss poor because its obvious the players often look confused as to what to follow, which you've eluded to.

I'm just not sure how much of this is Jose and how much is his team (which is very green and new to the set up of the first XI). Some managers obviously are hands on in every part of training and tactics and others not so much.
 

ash_86

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There's a difference in the way City lose the odd game and we lose abysmally to fodder.

Let's get the difference between us and City - City lose to Wigan occasionally and maybe to a top team at times. We lose to both lesser teams and top teams quite frequently and can't string together more than a 3 game run of wins.
As i said we lost to them cause we were shit. No one in the right mind says our squad is worse than Brighton just because we lost to them. That's an awful argument.
 

Kapardin

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As i said we lost to them cause we were shit. No one in the right mind says our squad is worse than Brighton just because we lost to them. That's an awful argument.
Jose's excuse for losing to them is because he didn't get his signings. He didnt put those defeats down to a bad day at the office, he played fecking McTominay and Herrera at CB to prove how poorly off he was.

Thereby, if he wants to keep reminding us he didnt get signings, we should remind him that our squad is not worse off than Brighton or West Ham.
 

Bilbo

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The high pressing I see us attempting is this compromised type where only the attackers press and the midfielders are quick to drop off. Like Jose wants to press to appease the fans but still wants to stick with his typical style so we're left with his halfway attempt. Also no manager that wants to commit to a high press will heavily feature immobile midfielders like Matic and Fellaini.
Exactly. Its half-arsed. Its almost as if he does these things subconsciously knowing they wont work and thus vindicating his core belief that his way is the only way.
 

Bilbo

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I think our training generally looks piss poor because its obvious the players often look confused as to what to follow, which you've eluded to.

I'm just not sure how much of this is Jose and how much is his team (which is very green and new to the set up of the first XI). Some managers obviously are hands on in every part of training and tactics and others not so much.
It has to come down to the manager. The way he wants to play isn't working, and he hasn't recruited the right players to change it.
 

Pogue Mahone

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He seems to be vocally claiming that he instructs quicker start to games and higher presses though.

Its obviously not working yet clearly!
Have you got a link to an interview where Mourinho talks about getting the team to press more and/or higher? Because it’s definitely not happening. And if he can’t get the players to follow simple instructions like this, then his goose is cooked regardless.
 

Xixak17

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OMG stop this shit. We lost cause we were shit against them. City lost to Wigan last year and that doesn't mean Wigan has better squad. I mean come on, why is this point even brought up? You have seen bigger clubs loose to smaller clubs before right?
There are different ways to lose to small clubs.

There's the way where you dominate them, just can't find the target and they end up nicking one or two to steal the victory. This is extremely annoying but it's acceptable for a big club especially in a cup competition.

Then there's the other way, where you get outplayed by them and lose. This is unacceptable and has happened multiple times this year under Mourinho already.
 

Chesterlestreet

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But you are defending him.
If you think «Woody's a moron for not sacking him and opting for a half-arsed non-solution that will most likely be a huge waste of time (that we don't really have)» means that I'm defending Mourinho, then yes - sure, I'm 100% in his corner.
 

VP89

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It has to come down to the manager. The way he wants to play isn't working, and he hasn't recruited the right players to change it.
It does come down to the manager.

Do you reckon he will turn it around?
 

ash_86

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Jose's excuse for losing to them is because he didn't get his signings. He didnt put those defeats down to a bad day at the office, he played fecking McTominay and Herrera at CB to prove how poorly off he was.

Thereby, if he wants to keep reminding us he didnt get signings, we should remind him that our squad is not worse off than Brighton or West Ham.
McTomney and Herrera didn't feature again Brighton at all. Smalling and Lindeloff has been regular starts for a while now. I don't know why you keep bringing thing up that happened over 1 game so many games back. There are so many other genuine avenues to bash him.
 

fellaini's barber

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I didn’t state names, as there were various players speculated on. I’d say there were a few world class players linked.
Like who? Those are the ones I know where speculated on we all heard about how desperate we were for a CB. Remember Jose clearly stated last season that he didn't need attackers? Who are these world class game changing signings we wanted but didn't get now ?
 

Rolaholic

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:lol: I still don't know how this one got promoted. Nonsensical posting
Might be the worst poster on here give how blatant the attempted trolling is

At least the other Jose kneepad wearers genuinely seem to believe the drivel they come up with
 

fellaini's barber

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Might be the worst poster on here give how blatant the attempted trolling is

At least the other Jose kneepad wearers genuinely seem to believe the drivel they come up with
Nah, you probably didn't encounter a guy called Kinderbueno or something in the LVG era . Thankfully he fecked dissapeared after LVG got fired like this nutter will
 

VP89

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Have you got a link to an interview where Mourinho talks about getting the team to press more and/or higher? Because it’s definitely not happening. And if he can’t get the players to follow simple instructions like this, then his goose is cooked regardless.
I am at work and can't dig into articles right now, but do you remember some interviews post match (I think Juventus away was one and Bournemouth another) where the interviewer mentioned the constant slow starts?

Jose said something like how they practise all week in training and when the opposition score it looks like they haven't really prepared even though they work all week on it.

Looking back at a quick scan,

Post match vs Brighton which was a while ago "we didn't play like how I prepared for us to play"

Post match vs Bournemouth "it looked like we don't work tactically during the week, which is the worst thing for me as we work hard".

I can't find the other quotes but I'm sure when he was asked about making faster starts he agreed and said they work on it in training.

I know what I found doesn't specify pressing but I'm sure he's touched on it in one of his interviews.
 

Gerardo Islas

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Pretty poor analysis all in all. No actual video evidence from matches presented (just referencing some).

In short, we all know Mourinho has an identity of being reactive to the opponents defensively and that he focuses on transitions (he was talking about 'lines' back in 2004 with Chelsea). The issue is that is where his direction appears to end.
Well I believe that there is direction and it's the one I posted in the video. The problem has been the players execution of that idea. With the set of players we have, I don't believe we could play in a more attractive way.

 

Pogue Mahone

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I am at work and can't dig into articles right now, but do you remember some interviews post match (I think Juventus away was one and Bournemouth another) where the interviewer mentioned the constant slow starts?

Jose said something like how they practise all week in training and when the opposition score it looks like they haven't really prepared even though they work all week on it.

Looking back at a quick scan,

Post match vs Brighton which was a while ago "we didn't play like how I prepared for us to play"

Post match vs Bournemouth "it looked like we don't work tactically during the week, which is the worst thing for me as we work hard".

I can't find the other quotes but I'm sure when he was asked about making faster starts he agreed and said they work on it in training.
He obviously didn’t intend us to start each game playing like boiled shite but that’s not the same thing as him recently asking the players to start to press more. Those interviews were just him struggling to understand why we’ve had bang average teams like Bournemouth and Newcastle shitting all over us for the first 45 minutes. I certainly didn’t take them as an insight into a revised tactical approach.
 

Canagel

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The high pressing I see us attempting is this compromised type where only the attackers press and the midfielders are quick to drop off. Like Jose wants to press to appease the fans but still wants to stick with his typical style so we're left with his halfway attempt. Also no manager that wants to commit to a high press will heavily feature immobile midfielders like Matic and Fellaini.
If he wanted to high press he would not have signed Zlatan, Lukaku, Matic. Either it's not his interest or it's a big misjudgement on his part.
A midfield including Matic and Fellaini will never press effectively.
 

Kapardin

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McTomney and Herrera didn't feature again Brighton at all. Smalling and Lindeloff has been regular starts for a while now. I don't know why you keep bringing thing up that happened over 1 game so many games back. There are so many other genuine avenues to bash him.
I was simply making the point that he attributed the defeats even to Brighton and West Ham constantly to his lack of signings. Absolutely took every chance to make that point. Does it matter if he played Herrera etc as CB in that game or others when his message was constant?

There is only reason to bash him and that is this - it is his tactics that are lacking and our defeats are not some off days like City's. Just trying to defend him by saying City lost to Wigan doesn't work, it's actually a pretty ridiculous comparison.
 

RedDevil@84

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. I certainly didn’t take them as an insight into a revised tactical approach.
He is obviously not going to spread out a sheet and explain our tactical approach in media. He said that in training we are doing well to stop this slow start problems. And him and the coaches believe it is good enough. So it is surprising even for him when we struggle first and then react later.

I think we either take his word for it or call him a liar and strongly believe that he purposefully sets us up to start games slowly.

Edit: If you point is that Jose has not come out and said "I have asked players to press more", I agree there has been no statement like that as far as I can remember.
 

VP89

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He is obviously not going to spread out a sheet and explain our tactical approach in media. He said that in training we are doing well to stop this slow start problems. And him and the coaches believe it is good enough. So it is surprising even for him when we struggle first and then react later.

I think we either take his word for it or call him a liar and strongly believe that he purposefully sets us up to start games slowly.

Edit: If you point is that Jose has not come out and said "I have asked players to press more", I agree there has been no statement like that as far as I can remember.
I think that was his question because I had suggested he did. What I should have said was Jose implied in post match interviews that he was doing more in training to address slow starts. I just feel pressing and attacking earlier is a fair implication from that.
 

Bilbo

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It does come down to the manager.

Do you reckon he will turn it around?
Its stacked against him, but stranger things have happened. 2 cracking signings in January could absolutely transform this team and everything around it.

The smart money would certainly be on a new manager by the start of next season though.
 

Patrick08

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Have you got a link to an interview where Mourinho talks about getting the team to press more and/or higher? Because it’s definitely not happening. And if he can’t get the players to follow simple instructions like this, then his goose is cooked regardless.
Had seen it discussed on cafe before by a new poster and he was bang on. He wants players to press in their zones when the ball enters their zones, but if not then he wants them to drop back to their positions in the defensive structure, as a result the team doesn't press as a unit and its not every effective when opposition can switch play and interlink quickly while running past our def midfielders who they beat with their dynamism.
 

VP89

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Had seen it discussed on cafe before by a new poster and he was bang on. He wants players to press in their zones when the ball enters their zones, but if not then he wants them to drop back to their positions in the defensive structure, as a result the team doesn't press as a unit and its not every effective when opposition can switch play and interlink quickly while running past our def midfielders who they beat with their dynamism.
It's weird though because he's applied this system presumably in Spain and it seemed to work fine for a season domestically and they won La Liga over Peps Barcelona.
 

sparky

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Jose has been trending for 3 days on my twitter feed. Each time I got my hopes up! It was never going to be easy, the media were always going to raise the 3rd season syndrome which would always increase the pressure. I keep going from "sack him" to "ho hum" I know we cannot win all the time but for me its the way we play now. Bores the crap out of me.
 

JPRouve

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It's weird though because he's applied this system presumably in Spain and it seemed to work fine for a season domestically and they won La Liga over Peps Barcelona.
IIRC, he didn't use that system with Real mainly because it didn't suit the attackers. He used it with Chelsea twice, Inter and United and there is nothing wrong with it when you drill your players correctly.
 

Patrick08

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It's weird though because he's applied this system presumably in Spain and it seemed to work fine for a season domestically and they won La Liga over Peps Barcelona.
Weren't a great pressing team even then, but a great counter attacking team , albeit they had better team overall man to man. In fact an elite team who could play direct with creativity and full of elite playmakers and passing vision and not some long ball football and kicking it to absolutely nowhere with lack of chemistry where players can't keep the ball as a team for more than few seconds.
 

Treble

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It's weird though because he's applied this system presumably in Spain and it seemed to work fine for a season domestically and they won La Liga over Peps Barcelona.
That was 6 years ago and he had Ronaldo at the height of his powers banging in 46 goals in the league alone. Football has evolved tactically too.
 

BaseFishing

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The right answers to lots of the questions being posed here are actually quite simple, but to really get to them is in many ways complex.

To start with, you don't need to be an expert in medicine to hire a good surgeon for your hospital. Just like you don't need to be the world's brightest mathematician to hire a good mathematics professor for your univerity. A basic knowledge in both fields helps, of course, but a little is sufficient.

What you do need to have is the right criteria when selecting for the best candidates. Things like general intelligence, a good ability to explain their work in the field, a good ability to explain their values and why they work the way they work and why that is the best way to operate within that field. Additionally, things like a generally pleasant attitude is important. Especially important in roles where that person is some sort of team leader, since their attitude will have a great impact on the team they are leading.

Our hiring process has been lacking any of those things, as far as I can tell. Since Sir Alex we first had a Scottish guy who seems like a decent fellow overall, but whom it doesn't take more than 10 minutes of listening to, to figure out that he does not posses the intelligence or leadership qualities needed to lead a top football club, no offense to him, it's just the harsh truth.

Then we hired a man whose insistence on a specific football "philosophy" was extremely rigid, outdated, and overall uninspiring to the team and limiting to our progress in the long run. These things should have also been painfully obvious if anyone at the club spent some time seriously discussing football with LVG.

Finally we hired Mourinho. Not a lot of description needed for him but, it suffices to say, it should have also only taken a short conversation, or a short youtube search, to figure out he was never going to be a good fit, in the long run, to manage our club. Anything further than letting him take over some training sessions during the summer for variety's sake was him being in the job for too long.

What I'm trying to say is - there has been a lot of conversation about what types of things bring success. Is it being a 'real man'? Is it praying to the football gods? Is it playing a certain style of football? Is it playing Fellaini up top? Is it being bald (like recent history suggests)? Is it being charismatic? Is it being likable? Is it being a legend in the sport?

There is an answer to this question here which is, and has been, there for anyone who has seriously tried to figure it out. And the answer goes something like this: While it is not easy to predict what the best attributes that lead to success are, there is one that stands out and is possessed by the vast majority of successful people, particularly when it comes to management and leadership positions: intelligence.

Jose certainly believes that he is extremely intelligent but watching him contradict himself every other week should be proof that he is in fact supremely confused. Going even further, his renowned reputation as a manager who understands psychology to a high degree is completely laughable. He doesn't even seem to understand his own emotions most of the time, with plenty of examples to point to since the beginning of this season.

I obviously don't know Jose in his personal life but in his managerial career, especially since his second sacking from Chelsea, he has too often behaved like a textbook narcissist. And they all think that they are much smarter than they actually are, and they all refuse to change their stubborn ways, and they all point to anything and everything around them to justify it when they begin failing at whatever it is they are supposed to be doing. They will especially do this with things that are true.

That's the tough part for people to understand - a cunning narcissist, when failing, will not just begin blaming the weather or the fact that he woke up in the wrong side of the bed that morning. He will instead blame things that are actually kind of true, but blow them out of proportion just the right amount so that you feel like you are losing your mind. This is also called gaslighting. The desired reaction is - well he can't be wrong because what he is saying kind of makes sense - our players do kind of suck, the board does seem to have been doing a bad job at managing the club since SAF retired, City do seem to have spent a lot of money, Pogba does seem to post a lot on Instagram, Martial does seem to always have a resting b*tch face on.

Anyone can point to problems. The best leaders and managers, and more specifically the most intelligent people and the most successful people at most things, have never, as a general rule, been ones to blame others. Imagine Mourinho being in charge of Spurs, for example, this season with all that has been happening there. It would be a total catastrophe. Poch, in contrast, has for the most part continued on being professional, with the understanding that he can only play his part and blaming others will serve as no help to anyone or to the club. This is not to say that he would never be critical. It is simply the case that it takes a deeper understanding of when to be critical and when not to be in order to make a great leader or manager. That understanding comes from being intelligent. Mourinho lacks this understanding and he has always lacked it.

I have said all of this, and I haven't even gotten on to perhaps one of the most essential aspects of Mourinho - his general outlook on football. Yes, he has won a lot, but like it has been said a thousand times, football has changed. It was always going to change. Just like the narcissistic traits in his personality, his outlook on football mirrors his outlook on life - it's negative, reactive, and regressive. He believes that the best way to win a game is to make less mistakes than the other team. That in itself is such a terrible line of thinking that I don't even know where to begin with it.

So I will conclude with this: we should all try to get past what is necessarily true and what isn't about Manchester United. I don't mean forget it or ignore it, I don't mean not to talk about whether Smalling is good enough or not, by all means we should keep talking about that. But we should primarily attempt to look beyond it for a second. There are a million things wrong with our club at the moment, and it is easy to send ourselves into a frenzy not knowing which thing to start with, or which thing contradicts another and needs no addressing. It is never any help to panic. We have, since SAF retired, panicked like crazy. It has led to many bad decisions and now we find ourselves where we are - with a million bad decisions and an inability to decide what to do next. The truth is - it doesn't matter where we start, we just have to start from somewhere. Sacking Mourinho seems like a good place.
 
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