It's pure revisionism, to be honest. I remember this place then and it wasn't great. Winning any game 1-0 with the 1 shot on target. Yes, this is horrendous but it hasn't reached the lows of that season... yet.
Are people going to insist this isn't as bad or worse than the nadirs of LVG and Moyes?
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Feel free to state sort of measurement that backs this up. All current ones suggest this is worse.
Sure, sure. You development in the sense of throwing youth out there in hope it will stick. As for coaching careers beg to differ. It doesn't make sense to paint LVG time nicer just cause Jose has to go.
Some keep harping on about the Europa league but the fact is we had one of the easiest routes to the trophy ever and almost made a hash of it again because of Mourinho's negativity.
what revisionism?
Look on youtube for the Juan Mata 45 pass goal vs Southampton. Can't remember when last we had that type of possession during play.
I would rather win 1-0 with one shot than this shite where we do not win with one shot or win at all. So it has gone below that low.
I think there’s a little bit of revisionism or just forgetfulness going on here. We hardly ever followed the same gameplan under Moyes. Our plan wasn’t mainly to get it wide and cross it in, either. We usually played Fellaini deeper instead of getting him into the box. We never went out and tried to play to the same plan week in, week out. Moyes might’ve tried to make that happen, I don’t know, but it never manifested on the pitch. My guess is he was just clueless as to how to get a team playing good football.
I bez he'd have a triangle in which he should move and not a meter further.
It might not be worse but it certainly isn't far off. Everything probably feels much worse because we've got a walking PR disaster off the pitch as well.
So cause one goal vs Southampton he's miles better?
Same with me. Just kind of drifting through games. Will still watch them but there is no edge. Its like marriage after twenty years.
Was thinking of visiting them this season. Have not been to Old Trafford in years. Wont be going now anyway. Will still pay for sky and bt though.
I'd even take Moyes back instead of Mourinho. Not only football is as bad as under Moyes but, Mourinho have disrespected this club numerous time. He's an insult to this club and a poison for our talented and younger players.
Gosh. Have you forgotten the month of December where we played 7 games and failed to win a single one whilst getting knocked out of the CL? Losses to Norwich, Bournemouth and Stoke on the trot? Followed that up with boring draws and more losses to WBA, Southampton and Sunderland. Countless games where we went in at half time with 0 goals scored. That shocking game against Sheffield United where we had 1 shot on goal in 120 minutes. Dropping from 1st to 6th in the space of month.
Oh so you're comparing the entire season to a part season? How does that work?
Van Gaal had us near top the table right now. It all went pear shape as you've said but at least we were there initially. We had 28 pts and 8 wins from 14, with +10 GD at that stage. We have 22 currently and 6 wins from 14 with -1 GD. Bit weird you saying it's not as bad 'yet'. It already is worse.
Mourinho has done a shocking job right from the off this season and it could get much, much worse before too long.
It is now. It wasn't as bad until recently, even though it was dreadful. It's been clear we're not moving forward for a good while though.
Well that was the question, was it not? Comparing the lows to lows?
Like I said, this may, at some stage, reach those points and go even further.
Interesting but I disagree, mind you it can't get much worse than now. I think Pogba would just irritate the life out of LVG with his constant possession losses and poor pressing. We actually weren't a bad pressing team under LVG (especially in the big games) but Pogba wouldn't have complimented that type of football.
Mourinho before this season was clearly the better manager. But Van Gaal seemed to coach his players more and had a system, which benefited the younger players like Martial and especially Rashford. Mourinho seems to do very little drilling of his players judging by what we see on the pitch.
That system was to keep possession for the sake of it and not have a shot on goal. Had a period of good games in 1st season which lasted about 5 games and then scrapped that.
No it is not. Not looking good etc... but it is not that bad
That was the end result sometimes, clearly not the bloody point of the system.
I do not think LVG would have bought Pogba at all. He got De Maria who was good and then wanted to move to PSG and sulked. Who were the players LVG bought? Falcao who did not make it, Blind who did and is better than all of our CBs right now and Depay who has made it at Lyon and of course Di Maria.
I think compared to what Jose has spent now and the results LVG did not spend so much and got us into CL too and lost the second time by only goals. Yes Jose's first two seasons were better because we won the Europa during his first season though we finished 5th we qualified by winning the Europa. His second season we did not win anything but got 2nd. Now we are a disaster and worse than anything LVG did.
I think compared to what Jose has spent now and the results LVG did not spend so much and got us into CL too and lost the second time by only goals. Yes Jose's first two seasons were better because we won the Europa during his first season though we finished 5th we qualified by winning the Europa. His second season we did not win anything but got 2nd. Now we are a disaster and worse than anything LVG did.
Moyes is just as negative, dour, boring, and cowardly. He’s just worse at it.
Seemed like we aimed to take one shot, score one goal and be done with it.That was the end result sometimes, clearly not the bloody point of the system.
You're talking about degrees of extremity here not that the plan was deviated from. Fulham was Moyes' nadir because he was so out of his depth it didn't even come to mind to try and do anything else. All season long we drummed the same football to varying degree, probably mostly because Moyes didn't know how to do anything else.
The style of football was un-befitting for us and that's what made it so loathsome for our fanbase - we were in shock of going from the force we were under Fergie to what Moyes' terrible football turned us into, but again, relativity is a vital component in this assessment - the sheer shock of being what we were to what he turned us into will sour some beyond objectivity. In Mourinho's case, he has a squad that costs a fortune, has no idea what to do with them, cannot coach them and on top of that, has no balls to attack the opposition. It's very easy to mentally tune out of our games because of that.
It just baffles me when people say we're almost as bad as LVG/Moyes now, because on a scale of relativity, we've long since reached that point when resources are thrown into the equation.
Stolen from other Mourinho thread:
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Maybe he had a two months stretch like that, but over a whole season Mou had better results.
yes that is true but the problem is now. Jose has been worse now than the worst of LVG. This season it has been worse so far than the worst of LVG.
His system didn't work but that wasn't what he set out to do, just like Mourinho doesn't set out to lose matches through clueless attacking and even worse defending.
Ultimately there's an argument to be made about LVG and Mourinho being fundamentally similar managers in that they're both very conservative. LVG, funnily enough, had a slightly more proactive philosophy, and was better with the kids probably due to the way he coached. Both were/have been awful.
Who cares? Football enjoyment is about moments, not looking at the table (a spreadsheet) at the end of the season. Unless you win the league or substantially exceed your expected finish who cares? I mean it's important but that's different. We're talking the 'highs' of football here.
Results/performances like Juanfield were fecking head and shoulders above anything we've done under Mourinho.
That’s honestly the only game I remember us trying to get it wide and cross it to the extent that it appeared to be our main tactic. It was a laughable game, but it was the only time during his tenure that I could actually work out what the feck he was trying to do. Every single other game he managed I watched on in a state of confusion, bewilderment and general cluelessness for 90 minutes. Which isn’t a massive problem until you realise that Moyes did the same.
We’re only “almost as bad as Moyes/LvG” not because Moyes was compared to Fergie (they’ve all been compared to Fergie), but because we’re not a complete fecking laughing stock every single Saturday. Well, not until relatively recently. Until this season we had some respectability about us, and we had the ability to get results. We beat all of the top 6 last season. You can’t tell me you honestly believe Moyes would have us anywhere near to that. We lost to Chelsea, City and Liverpool without a whimper ffs. That’s the problem some have when comparing Jose to Moyes. It’s only now in his third season that we’re starting to lose some of that respectability. Moyes never even had it.
With LVG we kept possession and kept passing the ball without attacking or taking a shot on goal. With Jose we do not keep possession and we do not pass and we are unable to take a shot on goal. The end result may be the same but at least we kept possession and bored everyone else to death with LVG, while here with Jose we do not keep possession and make everyone bored to to death.
Great word. It’s in the title of my website.
yes I would say so. This is worse than the worst of LVG. Moyes still is down there. Jose has to get a lot worse than this if he is going to beat Moyes.
Not as bad as Moyes. I began to get genuinely fearful we were gonna stick with him for another season. As awful as this is, there's no chance of that with Mourinho,
In general I don't think Jose was awful. Could he have been better? Of course.
But of course this season d everything is awful. As for LVG maybe on paper he was proactive but in practice it all looked awful on the pitch.
I feel weird even being on the side of the defense of Moyes ineptitude here; how very surreal. Anyway, that Fulham game was the culmination of everything bad about Moyes rolled into 90 minutes as it showed how completely and utterly out of his depth he was. Of course it's the standout for us as it sums him up so succinctly and with the brevity his tenure warrants. I just think in terms of 'damage scaling' if you will, the drop from Fergie to Moyes dragged us, as a fanbase, down like a lead balloon, and Moyes will never be forgiven for that.
About being a laughing stock - that ties in with the Champions of England suddenly looking like clowns due to the sheer drop in performance and competence. The difference now is people don't expect much from us anymore and can barely be bothered to even mock our incompetence like they took great delight in at that time. Our shiteness over the time in the doldrums has dulled the critics. It's akin to poking at a once lively predator who is already on his last legs and no longer offers the threat and majesty it once did. Not much fun in that, which is why we've mostly been left alone now, or even pitied by fans and media who used to hate us.
re. Moyes with what we have. I actually think he'd do better with this squad than Jose has. And we have to base it off this term as it's the comparable one - Jose has had a lot longer in the job than Moyes got, but it's now that he's really gone tits up that we can compare bottom levels like-for-like. Especially so with Jose under-performing now to a level that exceeds Moyes by all metrics.
At least we would get an occasional LVG cracker!
I think Mourinho has been awful. Good league results last season but the football peaked under him in the first half of his first season and went downhill since then, barring a very few isolated matches here and there. It's unforgivable for the players to look this clueless under him, it's like he's not even doing his basic job of coaching them. Even last season when we were winning 4-0 I thought the football was unsophisticated and average at best.
Nothing is as bad as Moyes or ever will be (please say it wont be that bad again!)
But yeah this is as bad as Van Gaal when everyone except him knew he was getting fired in the summer.
But yeah this is as bad as Van Gaal when everyone except him knew he was getting fired in the summer.