Had Van Gaal stayed... Would he have fared any worse than this?

[Bobski]

The most damming indictment of the club is that they clearly did not understand what they were employing with LVG. His approach, trying to develop players, create a playing identity, build with youth, absolutely the right way to go for this club. LVG failing did not mean that the idea (his philosophy as cringy as that word became) had to be jettisoned. Just try again with a younger, fresher version of LVG.

Hiring Mourinho just makes it look as if they were flailing around for names, hoping for a quick fix, not wanting to fully commit to the work needed. At the very least Van Gaal had an identifiable style of play, Mourinho has nothing of the sort, it is just individuals winning and losing games for us, no structure, coherence or evidence of him earning his £15million a year.

 

[Sandikan]

Van Gaal did crap with an stellar squad in 2014-15.

But we could actually finish 6th or 7th this season, worse than 2015-16 and closer to Moyes.

Back up back up.

Stellar?! Hardly!

 

[Bobski]

Back up back up.

Stellar?! Hardly!

He was bringing Nick Powell off the bench as we were crashing out of Europe while Mou was playing games with Pogba in the same situation.

The weakness off our squad at the time was a mistake on his part. Could easily have kept some of Rafael/Welbeck/Hernandez/Fletcher/Evans/Nani around to help with the transition but he wanted to get to rebuilding and introduce young players. Compare that to Mourinho's tantrum over having to work with a young squad in pre-season.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

LVG at least was funny at times. Like Phil Jones taking corners, his dive against Arsenal, horny talk/ sex masochism and so on.

Overall though LVG was just terrible as manager for us.

 

[Beaucoup]

It’s alright promoting youth, but they’ve got to be good enough

 

[FootballHQ]

Or even look like scoring one. Van Gaal did a terrible job. He was entrusted with a squad rebuild, spent a fortune and left the club with a weaker squad than the one he inherited.

Mourinho's recruitment has been largely positive. He has lost the squad but there is far more quality there now.

The other point that is really important to note is the improvement in the rest of the EPL teams since the Moyes and LVG days. City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and even Arsenal have improved significantly. City and Liverpool are (unfortunately) in the top echelon of teams in Europe. The next level of clubs like Everton, Wolves, West Ham and Watford are far better than a few years ago. Even Leicester have spent big money since winning the title. If Van Gaal was still in charge, United would genuinely be lucky to be top half.

Saying all of that, Jose isn't doing a good job. He should leave and the club needs a massive restructure.

I think that's a good point actually about how weak the rivals were back in the Leicester season.

Chelsea incredibly spent most of that season in the bottom half. Liverpool sacked Rodgers early on and were typically inconsistant while they learnt to adapt to Klopp's style so they were never in shake up for top 4 so that's two usually nailed on competitors who were nowhere to be seen in the top 4 race that year.

Even Man. City weren't that great as their form fell off a cliff as soon as it was announced Pellegrini was leaving in January, in the end they only finished above Man. United on GD I think.

Probably the weakest field for top 4 in last 10 years and LVG still couldn't finish even 4th so a little different to this year where likes of Arsenal and Liverpool are the strongest they've been for a fair few seasons.

 

[AndyJ1985]

We wouldn't be any worse and van Gaal was at least a likeable chap. He had personality and charisma, unlike the miserable one

 

[worldinmotion66]

What was that purpose?? Replace Rooney with Lukaku? Get a washed up Sanchez? Buy Mikhi only to realize he's shit and sell him? Buy Fred, not to play him? What was the purpose.

The things aforementioned - phasing out Rooney and enticing top players like Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Sanchez to the club. The fact that he hasn't made the best of them is something that can't have been easily predicted, but I don't think Van Gaal would have been able to bring them to the club. Just personal opinion though, I may be wrong.

People forget that we have still won trophies under Mourinho too, it's more the way that we've won them that has disappointed many of the traditionalist supporters.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

I think that's a good point actually about how weak the rivals were back in the Leicester season.

Chelsea incredibly spent most of that season in the bottom half. Liverpool sacked Rodgers early on and were typically inconsistant while they learnt to adapt to Klopp's style so they were never in shake up for top 4 so that's two usually nailed on competitors who were nowhere to be seen in the top 4 race that year.

Even Man. City weren't that great as their form fell off a cliff as soon as it was announced Pellegrini was leaving in January, in the end they only finished above Man. United on GD I think.

Probably the weakest field for top 4 in last 10 years and LVG still couldn't finish even 4th so a little different to this year where likes of Arsenal and Liverpool are the strongest they've been for a fair few seasons.

Suddenly Man Utd had the strongest team back in that season!!!

 

[shamans]

The things aforementioned - phasing out Rooney and enticing top players like Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Sanchez to the club. The fact that he hasn't made the best of them is something that can't have been easily predicted, but I don't think Van Gaal would have been able to bring them to the club. Just personal opinion though, I may be wrong.

People forget that we have still won trophies under Mourinho too, it's more the way that we've won them that has disappointed many of the traditionalist supporters.

I think Van Gaal was worse than Mourinho but Van Gaal had a much stronger pull imo. Di Maria and Falcao are no joke that too in one season. Also Sanchez was a terrible buy.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

The things aforementioned - phasing out Rooney and enticing top players like Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Sanchez to the club. The fact that he hasn't made the best of them is something that can't have been easily predicted, but I don't think Van Gaal would have been able to bring them to the club. Just personal opinion though, I may be wrong.

People forget that we have still won trophies under Mourinho too, it's more the way that we've won them that has disappointed many of the traditionalist supporters.

I think Rashford and Martial would be much further along in their development if Lukaku and Ibrahimovic were never brought in and Van Gaal despite some turbulent times and a much worse talent still finished 4th in the league in one season and 5th on goal difference in the other while winning a cup.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

In 2 years we’ll be playing dreadful football under some other guy, and then someone will point out how Mourinho should have stayed.

It’s not Mourinho at all. It’s this club, it’s broken

 

[Foxbatt]

In 2 years we’ll be playing dreadful football under some other guy, and then someone will point out how Mourinho should have stayed.

It’s not Mourinho at all. It’s this club, it’s broken

How can you say the club is broken? Yes their choics has not worked but LVG at the time was the only one available with the name and the pedigree who could pull us out of the doldrums of Moyes. I also thought that Jose being a winner can get us going but he has fecked up as well. LVG was one of the few managers who has won the La Liga and the Bundesliga and the CL. So it was a good choice at that time and we played very good football but I really cannot understand why he failed. With Jose you can see it in front every day but LVG, I really do not know why. He got us to play some great attacking football too and then suddenly everything went pear shaped.

 

[Tomuś]

He wasn't really about to get them relegated and yes, with that little competition at the top of Premier League he would have won it with United teams from 2016-17 or 2017-18.

He's really had two halves of bad PL results so far during all his Chelsea and United spells. Chelsea 15-16 and United now.

I'd say he's had a poorish 2nd half of last season (esp in Europe) and finished 6th in the league two years ago. Some people think it's good because we won the Europa League but it's still what it is - 6th place in the league. Well on course to have another poor half which will have made the majority of his United tenure a failure. Hope to God I'm wrong, though.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

How can you say the club is broken? Yes their choics has not worked but LVG at the time was the only one available with the name and the pedigree who could pull us out of the doldrums of Moyes. I also thought that Jose being a winner can get us going but he has fecked up as well. LVG was one of the few managers who has won the La Liga and the Bundesliga and the CL. So it was a good choice at that time and we played very good football but I really cannot understand why he failed. With Jose you can see it in front every day but LVG, I really do not know why. He got us to play some great attacking football too and then suddenly everything went pear shaped.

The only clubs as big as United in terms of finance, stature, legacy, appeal are Madrid and Barcelona. Both would have won titles with Moyes, LvG or Mourinho. Because they’re much better run. Uniteds problems are bigger than a manager imo

 

[Hugh Jass]

Not trying to defend Van Gaal, but he had a horrid time with injuries. I think Rashford got his chance because basically everyone else in his position was injured. Mind you he took it well.

Granted though some of the football was boring under Van Gaal. I remember playing Palace at home and Mata got a free kick to win the match. But by god was it terrible stuff. Still though that time we beat city, spurs and liverpool was good football.

I think Van gaal prefered youth rather than players with big reputations. Di Maria completely tanked here and i remember Van Gaal roaring at him in some match. He also fell out with Rivaldo when at barca. But his youthful Ajax team was just phenomenal.

Kind of ironic in that both Van Gaal and Mourhino have wealth at their disposal and yet are probably not suited to man utd given the wealth we have. It is like their philosophy is very specific.

 

[Eric's Seagull]

He also fell out with Rivaldo when at barca.

The supposed reason why Van Gaal dropped Rivaldo was that he decided he wanted to play in the centre instead of on the left.

 

[Foxbatt]

I am one of the guys who wanted LVG out in the end because it got so boring and he could not drop Rooney and get someone else to play there. This is one of the mysteries of the LVG era. Why didn't he or couldn't he get someone else to replace Rooney?
If he got a quality world class player things may have turned out different.

I still could not understand why we could not move the ball more quickly. The passing was not the problem but the pace of the passing was the problem.

 

[POF]

Whats the problem with that though? Adds further competition for places don't think that's a problem. If a players in form then why not reward them, it gives all our young players hope. If Tuanzebe was injured then that's just plain bad luck on his part. Regan Poole got 1 minute under LvG against Midtjylland in 15/16 having played for Newport on loan the season before (1013mins). He was 17 years old I think.

We basically had 2 CBs, 1 LB and 1 RB out for over half the season.

Jose has 'solved' this issue by bringing in another senior CB and a promising youth player RB. He also uses Matic and McTominay as emergency CBs. I seem to recall we may have used Carrick in a few games at CB in 15/16.

It's a fair point that it gives players hope, but this is Manchester United, where every result matters and maintaining a winning mentality throughout the squad is key.

Donald Love and Paddy McNair were never going to be good enough to be first choice players for United. Weakening the team by playing inexperienced players pegged as stars of the future is ok. Weakening it to play duds is not. If you play poor players you have a poor team.

On your last point, LVG did that too. He played Young at full back ahead of Joe Riley who did really well in the first team in the 2 games he got. Never played again. "Development".

Fergie played Fletcher and Carrick in defence all the time. Remember when he played the (then promising) Richie De Laet in a back 3 with Carrick and Evra? The team got hockeyed and it affected De Laet's confidence.

@POF a reason his opportunities were limited was due to a game where he had Januzaj supposedly had a bet to see who could score from a corner and used every opportunity to try and score direct from them. This went against LVG’s team ethic and they were both disciplined and opportunities limited.

Maybe that was it but Pereira hated him and Van Gaal showed no real signs of having a plan for him. Van Gaal has a history for liking more positionally astute than instinctive players and struggled with Brazilian players.

But how much 'elite talent' did LVG overlook to give youth debuts?

I honestly believe if LVG had the Gomes, Chong generation at his disposal. Plus a fit Tuanzebe they'd all have been getting regular minutes. The Dude was that bold with youngsters.

The reserves won the league when Van Gaal was in charge. While Jose was in charge they played a whole season with no forwards and the next season got relegated.

Gomes and Chong are nowhere near ready for first team football. Gomes has only just started making an impact at u23 level due to the additional physicality. Senior football is another level entirely

Van Gaal had Tuanzebe as the most talented player of a successful u23 team but never played him despite a raft of defensive injuries.

I don’t disagree with what you said about developing players but you are still missing my point. This is not about LVG inability to find talent, that’s why I said Memphis & Januzaj are poor example. It’s about how the manager treat their young players.

I might be poor putting my sentence so try your best to understand it.

Why are clubs loaning out their young players? To give them more playing time, if they don’t play then they can’t be developed as a footballer.

My point is that LVG could do so much better job than Mourinho for the best of Martial & Rashford. Some Young players are different, and those two need trust from the manager and playing time. If LVG was still our manager in 2016/2017, we would had Martial & Rashford as our regular XI in that season.

Mourinho on the other hand didn’t trust them and instead wasted his money to sign Lukaku, Sanchez and about to sign Perisic. And now we are looking for to sell them. What a waste of money and time.

I understand your point. I just don't agree. There isn't another top club in the league (or in Europe) that would have started a season with Rashford and Martial as their front line forwards. If they played every week in a struggling side, with their own form being inconsistent, they would have been slated in the media. Playing young players no matter what is not necessarily good for their development.

Look as Asensio at Real. They sold Ronaldo and gave him the chance to step up. How did that work out? He was seen as one of the best young talents in Europe. At top clubs, every result matters. Players go from hero to zero in 5 minutes. You need to have the ability to take young players out of the firing line when their form drops. Bringing in Zlatan and rotating Rashford/Martial was a great move by Jose. Zlatan's injury was a huge moment in Jose's United career.

I think that's a good point actually about how weak the rivals were back in the Leicester season.

Chelsea incredibly spent most of that season in the bottom half. Liverpool sacked Rodgers early on and were typically inconsistant while they learnt to adapt to Klopp's style so they were never in shake up for top 4 so that's two usually nailed on competitors who were nowhere to be seen in the top 4 race that year.

Even Man. City weren't that great as their form fell off a cliff as soon as it was announced Pellegrini was leaving in January, in the end they only finished above Man. United on GD I think.

Probably the weakest field for top 4 in last 10 years and LVG still couldn't finish even 4th so a little different to this year where likes of Arsenal and Liverpool are the strongest they've been for a fair few seasons.

Look at the form of City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs this season. It is incredible. They just keep winning every week. Every slip up by United lets top 4 slip further and further away, yet people wonder would it be any worse under a manager whose team rarely got a shot on target in the first half of games.

I wonder if Liverpool and City fans are ruing the fact that LVG is not their manager. They might be crap but Solanke, Brewster, Diaz and Foden might get more games.

 

[worldinmotion66]

I think Rashford and Martial would be much further along in their development if Lukaku and Ibrahimovic were never brought in and Van Gaal despite some turbulent times and a much worse talent still finished 4th in the league in one season and 5th on goal difference in the other while winning a cup.

I agree, although he'd have certainly brought another striker in as well. I think the job he did is often underestimated, but I'm not sure where we would be now had he stayed - probably with Giggs in charge and playing a brand of football more associated with the traditions of the club, which is the thing that I crave most right now.

 

[NotQuiteManc]

Mourinhos current season, and to certain extent, last season starting January onwards, werent exactly flowing football with winning results, but the likes of Pogba wouldnt be here if not for Mourinho. United wouldnt win UEFA Cup, or able to get rid of Rooney the way Jose did.

Yes, the football and results, and to most, the style is not way fans would want but lets not try to rewrite history here. LvGs brand of football was even more boring and more sideways than now.

For me, LvG and Jose has taken the steps to improve the squad from what it had been before since Moyes, as far as possible but now another forward steps need to be taken to improve it. How? I think it would need more than just a change of manager because the club has changed manager and thrown money at the market but nothing much has changed.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

history for liking more positionally astute than instinctive players and struggled with Brazilian players

Very true as this was part of the issue with Herrera and to be honest Herrera himself said that a reason he wasn’t being selected was due to his tendency to abandon position which I actually feel like LVG did a great job of improving on. LVG was all about zones which he believe led to faster and more instinctual passing and ability to move the ball, it just never turned out that way for us but I felt like when he stuck Lingard in midfield and had someone who could carry the ball out of there we started to look a lot better.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I understand your point. I just don't agree. There isn't another top club in the league (or in Europe) that would have started a season with Rashford and Martial as their front line forwards. If they played every week in a struggling side, with their own form being inconsistent, they would have been slated in the media. Playing young players no matter what is not necessarily good for their development.

Look as Asensio at Real. They sold Ronaldo and gave him the chance to step up. How did that work out? He was seen as one of the best young talents in Europe. At top clubs, every result matters. Players go from hero to zero in 5 minutes. You need to have the ability to take young players out of the firing line when their form drops. Bringing in Zlatan and rotating Rashford/Martial was a great move by Jose. Zlatan's injury was a huge moment in Jose's United career.

You can’t use Asensio as an example and compare it with Martial in his first season with LVG. Martial was so much better, in his first season he carried our team’s attack.

Young players tend to be inconsistent that’s why they need to be treated differently. LVG knows how to manage both Rashford and Martial, but Mourinho doesn’t. One or two games they don’t score, they were dropped by Mourinho. How can they be developed properly if Mourinho treated them like that? LVG won’t drop them just because they don’t score in 2-3 games.

We tried to win something in a short way, this is where the mistake is. We need a long term plan, meet United’s philosophy, & patience.

We shouldn’t be expecting winning the league right away, of course we won’t have successfully season if we decide to keep LVG and let him build a team around young players like Rashford & Martial but that’s part of the long term plan and United philosophy to develop our young players into more matured players.

Clearly Mounriho’s way isn’t working for us. I would rather see us developing Rashford and Martial in the last 3 years to be more matured as a footballer and not winning Europa league trophy than being in our current situation right now.

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

Yes for sure. Results wise at least.
Mourinho has qualified us for two back to back UCL seasons as well as gotten us out of group each time.
LvG saw us go out in one of the weakest CL group in 2015 and fail to qualify back at the end of the season.

 

[Morpheus 7]

It's like arguing about what shite is worse. They both have failed and we need an attacking manager in that understands the club. Need a new lease of life and energy to wash away the dirt we've seen since Fergie left.

 

[POF]

You can’t use Asensio as an example and compare it with Martial in his first season with LVG. Martial was so much better, in his first season he carried our team’s attack.

Young players tend to be inconsistent that’s why they need to be treated differently. LVG knows how to manage both Rashford and Martial, but Mourinho doesn’t. One or two games they don’t score, they were dropped by Mourinho. How can they be developed properly if Mourinho treated them like that? LVG won’t drop them just because they don’t score in 2-3 games.

We tried to win something in a short way, this is where the mistake is. We need a long term plan, meet United’s philosophy, & patience.

We shouldn’t be expecting winning the league right away, of course we won’t have successfully season if we decide to keep LVG and let him build a team around young players like Rashford & Martial but that’s part of the long term plan and United philosophy to develop our young players into more matured players.

Clearly Mounriho’s way isn’t working for us. I would rather see us developing Rashford and Martial in the last 3 years to be more matured as a footballer and not winning Europa league trophy than being in our current situation right now.

I'm not going to argue that Mourinho is doing a great job or that he has dramatically improved Rashford and Martial. He isn't and he hasn't.

Martial's off the ball movement and ability to get involved in the game is still poor and Rashford's decision making and final ball is so bad you would think he's doing it on purpose. As for letting him take corners . . . . .

Would they have improved more under LVG? Maybe, but who can tell? The period of time they played under him was so short that any noticed improvement could easily just have been a purple patch of form.

Where we differ is that you seem happy to sacrifice the team's success or even the ability to be competitive to develop 2 players. I am not. I didn't want Jose after Fergie but he seemed the right choice after LVG because after 3 years of being a laughing stock, the club desperately needed a return of winning mentality. I thought Jose would provide that and galvanise the squad. There were good signs, until about midway through his 2nd season, but it hasn't worked.

Would you have been happy under LVG for the last 2 seasons playing Martial and Rashford more regularly and finishing 8th and 10th? Would you rather they be pivotal players in a poor team than less key players in a top team? If it's the former, what's to stop PSG or Juve or Real coming in and signing Martial or Rashford going to City or Chelsea? Would either want to stay with a team they are carrying in mid table or would they want Champions League football?

You can bring young players through without sacrificing success and it will stand to them a lot more if they come through in a top team with a strong dressing room winning trophies.

United's priority now is to be competitive as quickly as possible. If that means losing Martial or Rashford then so be it, because if the club remains also rans for much longer they will lose much more than that.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

The reserves won the league when Van Gaal was in charge. While Jose was in charge they played a whole season with no forwards and the next season got relegated.

Gomes and Chong are nowhere near ready for first team football. Gomes has only just started making an impact at u23 level due to the additional physicality. Senior football is another level entirely

Van Gaal had Tuanzebe as the most talented player of a successful u23 team but never played him despite a raft of defensive injuries.

That doesn't really answer my query. We won't the league wih reserves under LVG that is why he was eager to blood on them youngsters. But that doesnt mean that htoup was packed with elite talent. You also still have not answered the issue of these supposed elite youngsters he supposedly overlooked. Tuanzebe is one player. Besidea LVG gave debuts in defense to Fosu Mensah, Borthwick Jackson, McNair even a Donald Love and Poole at one point. Tuaanzebe even made his bench for a matchday EPL aged just 17! That's how way it was for him to pick youth.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I'm not going to argue that Mourinho is doing a great job or that he has dramatically improved Rashford and Martial. He isn't and he hasn't.

Martial's off the ball movement and ability to get involved in the game is still poor and Rashford's decision making and final ball is so bad you would think he's doing it on purpose. As for letting him take corners . . . . .

Would they have improved more under LVG? Maybe, but who can tell? The period of time they played under him was so short that any noticed improvement could easily just have been a purple patch of form.

Where we differ is that you seem happy to sacrifice the team's success or even the ability to be competitive to develop 2 players. I am not. I didn't want Jose after Fergie but he seemed the right choice after LVG because after 3 years of being a laughing stock, the club desperately needed a return of winning mentality. I thought Jose would provide that and galvanise the squad. There were good signs, until about midway through his 2nd season, but it hasn't worked.

Would you have been happy under LVG for the last 2 seasons playing Martial and Rashford more regularly and finishing 8th and 10th? Would you rather they be pivotal players in a poor team than less key players in a top team? If it's the former, what's to stop PSG or Juve or Real coming in and signing Martial or Rashford going to City or Chelsea? Would either want to stay with a team they are carrying in mid table or would they want Champions League football?

You can bring young players through without sacrificing success and it will stand to them a lot more if they come through in a top team with a strong dressing room winning trophies.

United's priority now is to be competitive as quickly as possible. If that means losing Martial or Rashford then so be it, because if the club remains also rans for much longer they will lose much more than that.

Your way of thinking is exactly what Ed is thinking right now. Bring success to United as soon as possible. Hiring Mourinho was the reason of it but we are Manchester United! Our aim to success should be a long term not for a short term! We should be doing it step by step, the first step is following United philosophy by playing entertaining football, sign young players or bring the youth and develop them into top stars.

Because of the naive thinking that we could bring success in a short period of time by hiring Mourinho we are in messed right now. Mourinho’s first season we finished 6th! We were lucky that we didn’t faced teams like Liverpool, Sevilla & Dortmund in Europa league. Last season we had zero trophy and finished 2nd, I don’t count that as “success’’.

The fact is that we aren’t winning right now! If we aren’t winning, we might should have just aim for long term success and developing Martial & Rashford until they are ready to lead this club, I would be happy enough to see a sign of positivity in this club. And What is another way to turn young players to more matured on the field? Getting a lot of game times! Both Rashford & Martial would got regular playing time under LVG.

 

[POF]

That doesn't really answer my query. We won't the league wih reserves under LVG that is why he was eager to blood on them youngsters. But that doesnt mean that htoup was packed with elite talent. You also still have not answered the issue of these supposed elite youngsters he supposedly overlooked. Tuanzebe is one player. Besidea LVG gave debuts in defense to Fosu Mensah, Borthwick Jackson, McNair even a Donald Love and Poole at one point. Tuaanzebe even made his bench for a matchday EPL aged just 17! That's how way it was for him to pick youth.

You say that as if it's a positive. It's not. McNair, Love and Poole are never going to make it as first team players at United. What is the benefit of giving first team games to players who aren't (or never will be) good enough? It drops the level of the team. Even Borthwick Jackson (although he played well when he got his chance) was not of the required level.

There were 3 first team quality players in that reserves squad (Tuanzebe, Pereira and Fosu Mensah). I would rather have seen Tuanzebe at right back ahead of Love or Fletcher at right back and Pereira in midfield. Identify the talent and integrate them. If there is no talent, build up the size of your squad or sign young talent. Don't just play crap because they are from the academy.

Even Rashford, who turned out to have the talent, wasn't identified by LVG. He only got in because Powell and Keane were injured.

Playing young players is not a positive if they are shit. The concern with LVG is when Greenwood, Gomes and Chong are ready to play, there is every chance they'd get less game time than George Tanner if the injuries that season happen to be at right back.

There was no plan, other than make the squad so poor and thin (spending a fortune in the process) that he would be eventually forced to play kids. How anyone thinks that is a positive is beyond me.

 

[Himannv]

Can't believe there's a thread like this. Van Gaal was a clown, especially at the end of his tenure here. I like what he did with young players, but he was consistently bad with older and more experienced players unless we're talking about Fellaini. Also, watching his version of possession-based football was like watching milk turn sour. The mood at the club was almost as bad as it is now under Mourinho. They both deserve the sack.

 

[POF]

Your way of thinking is exactly what Ed is thinking right now. Bring success to United as soon as possible. Hiring Mourinho was the reason of it but we are Manchester United! Our aim to success should be a long term not for a short term! We should be doing it step by step, the first step is following United philosophy by playing entertaining football, sign young players or bring the youth and develop them into top stars.

Because of the naive thinking that we could bring success in a short period of time by hiring Mourinho we are in messed right now. Mourinho’s first season we finished 6th! We were lucky that we didn’t faced teams like Liverpool, Sevilla & Dortmund in Europa league. Last season we had zero trophy and finished 2nd, I don’t count that as “success’’.

The fact is that we aren’t winning right now! If we aren’t winning, we might should have just aim for long term success and developing Martial & Rashford until they are ready to lead this club, I would be happy enough to see a sign of positivity in this club. And What is another way to turn young players to more matured on the field? Getting a lot of game times! Both Rashford & Martial would got regular playing time under LVG.

I am looking on enviously at the way Arsenal have handled their post-Wenger transition. A club that I've seen as a laughing stock for a decade. Believe me, my way of thinking is quite different to Ed's.

A good way to make players more mature on the field is to play them with quality experienced players. Like Ibrahimovic. Unlike Memphis Depay.

Rashford and Martial may have played more under LVG but it is absolutely guaranteed that De Gea (the club's one and only world class player and multiple time player of the season) would have left.

You are being extremely short sighted by focussing on only 2 players. Maybe they would have fired United to glory with the outstanding service from Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin and Rooney in midfield.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I am looking on enviously at the way Arsenal have handled their post-Wenger transition. A club that I've seen as a laughing stock for a decade. Believe me, my way of thinking is quite different to Ed's.

A good way to make players more mature on the field is to play them with quality experienced players. Like Ibrahimovic. Unlike Memphis Depay.

Rashford and Martial may have played more under LVG but it is absolutely guaranteed that De Gea (the club's one and only world class player and multiple time player of the season) would have left.

You are being extremely short sighted by focussing on only 2 players. Maybe they would have fired United to glory with the outstanding service from Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin and Rooney in midfield.

Arsenal’s case is different. They had zero interest to win trophy,

What we should be doing is looking for long term success. I never say we shouldn’t sign top players.

We should have never waste our money on the players like Lukaku or Sanchez or even trying to sign Perisic for short term success and killing two of our young talented players Rashford & Martial!

We should be using them regularly and support them with top players not trying to replace them with top players, which what Mourinho has been doing in the last three seasons!

LVG would have kept playing them regularly and by the time we reached his final of his contract, we could have hired a new manager and the new manager are left with more matured version of Rashford and Martial.

 

[TheLord]

Results are one thing.
The amount of toxicity surrounding the club is something else.
Yes, compared to Toxinho, van Gaal would have done an "overall" better job.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

You say that as if it's a positive. It's not. McNair, Love and Poole are never going to make it as first team players at United. What is the benefit of giving first team games to players who aren't (or never will be) good enough? It drops the level of the team. Even Borthwick Jackson (although he played well when he got his chance) was not of the required level.

How is it a negative? LVG was willing give youth a chance. It was up to them to take it. Your entire argument rests on a claim LVG 'overlooked elite talent' at youth level. When the fact is he gave EVERYONE a chance.

And them being not good enough long term isnt the point. The vast majority of them never let the club down when he handed them a chance. Some One failong to see how anyone can believe this Gomes, Chang generation would not have been regular games times under some like him. Who was already building hid attack around teenagers Martial and Rashford when he got soaked

There were 3 first team quality players in that reserves squad (Tuanzebe, Pereira and Fosu Mensah). I would rather have seen Tuanzebe at right back ahead of Love or Fletcher at right back and Pereira in midfield. Identify the talent and integrate them. If there is no talent, build up the size of your squad or sign young talent. Don't just play crap because they are from the academy.

Fosu Mensah? Are you pretending LVG is not the one who promoted him when we had an injury crisis? Pereira fell foul of LVGs strict team ethic rules just like Januzaj. Besides, we never had an injury crisis in midfield . We did in defense
That is why youth players all got chances. As I told you Tuanzebe made his bench for EPL games. He also was never a fan of playing first teamers out of position. He prefered to pick an available youth team player in their most natural position.

Even Rashford, who turned out to have the talent, wasn't identified by LVG.

This argument always amazes me. If Rashford was strictly picked due to an injury crisis. He'd never have kept him on the team. Rashford was 17-18 playing academy football.
For people to siddenly pretend that level was enough for a first team manager to over look a fit Powell and Keane to go for him. Is as dumb as saying JM right now should pick Greenwood over Lukaku, Rashford, Alexis and Martial as a cf due to his academy and UEFA youth champions league exploits

Playing young players is not a positive if they are shit. The concern with LVG is when Greenwood, Gomes and Chong are ready to play, there is every chance they'd get less game time than George Tanner if the injuries that season happen to be at right back.

No that is one dumb argument. LVG chose youth players whenever they did one of 3 things a) there was an injury crisis in the first team b) if the were natural and superior to his first team options in the role and c) if they took their chance with both hands. That is how McNair, Borthwick- Jackson, Fosu-Mensah and Rashford kept their places.

Furthermore, The notion that 'it wasnt planned' to play youth to have a thin squad is one of the most idiotic myths that lives on in this forum about LVG. Same as the idea that players as good as Gomes and Chong would NEVER have got a chance under him. Yet this is guy who could happily pick a Young over a Di Maria, a teenaged Martial over a Delay because the worse in one case and kid another week put performing the super stars.


I simply quote LVG himself:

"Asked if the flurry of young players could galvanise United's support Van Gaal replied: "I shall never use for myself, only for the team to improve the team. I have a philosophy, for example, that I don't want a great or wide squads, because then you cannot give youngsters a chance and now you see a lot of youngsters who can show their quality and you can also win, but it's a big risk."

That is for the next poster who wants to lie to us having a thing squad was not planned by LVG and he was just 'force' to play youth.

You can knock LVG on everything else. Never his policy and planning for youth players.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

None of the 3 managers since Fergie have delivered, and were all poor in different aspects. Jose should be sacked at the end of the season and we can hopefully move on and forget about this banter era.

 

[scholesyboy18]

moyes, van gaal, jose have all been average to below average. united football under all 3 have been boring with no show for a team ethics.

 

[POF]

Arsenal’s case is different. They had zero interest to win trophy,

What we should be doing is looking for long term success. I never say we shouldn’t sign top players.

We should have never waste our money on the players like Lukaku or Sanchez or even trying to sign Perisic for short term success and killing two of our young talented players Rashford & Martial!

We should be using them regularly and support them with top players not trying to replace them with top players, which what Mourinho has been doing in the last three seasons!

LVG would have kept playing them regularly and by the time we reached his final of his contract, we could have hired a new manager and the new manager are left with more matured version of Rashford and Martial.

Signing Lukaku and Sanchez was the attempt to sign top players. Both for big money (Lukaku's fee, Sanchez's wages). City desperately wanted Sanchez. Neither are playing well but hindsight is 20-20. Lukaku looked an excellent signing in his first season and Sanchez was one of the best players in the league at Arsenal.

On the bolded above, nobody should be guaranteed their place in the United team. When you look back at players like Giggs, Beckham, Ronaldo, Scholes, Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic, Yorke, Cole, etc. who were dropped when out of form and now people expect unproven kids to be guaranteed starters?

 

[POF]

How is it a negative? LVG was willing give youth a chance. It was up to them to take it. Your entire argument rests on a claim LVG 'overlooked elite talent' at youth level. When the fact is he gave EVERYONE a chance.

And them being not good enough long term isnt the point. The vast majority of them never let the club down when he handed them a chance. Some One failong to see how anyone can believe this Gomes, Chang generation would not have been regular games times under some like him. Who was already building hid attack around teenagers Martial and Rashford when he got soaked



Fosu Mensah? Are you pretending LVG is not the one who promoted him when we had an injury crisis? Pereira fell foul of LVGs strict team ethic rules just like Januzaj. Besides, we never had an injury crisis in midfield . We did in defense
That is why youth players all got chances. As I told you Tuanzebe made his bench for EPL games. He also was never a fan of playing first teamers out of position. He prefered to pick an available youth team player in their most natural position.


This argument always amazes me. If Rashford was strictly picked due to an injury crisis. He'd never have kept him on the team. Rashford was 17-18 playing academy football.
For people to siddenly pretend that level was enough for a first team manager to over look a fit Powell and Keane to go for him. Is as dumb as saying JM right now should pick Greenwood over Lukaku, Rashford, Alexis and Martial as a cf due to his academy and UEFA youth champions league exploits


No that is one dumb argument. LVG chose youth players whenever they did one of 3 things a) there was an injury crisis in the first team b) if the were natural and superior to his first team options in the role and c) if they took their chance with both hands. That is how McNair, Borthwick- Jackson, Fosu-Mensah and Rashford kept their places.

Furthermore, The notion that 'it wasnt planned' to play youth to have a thin squad is one of the most idiotic myths that lives on in this forum about LVG. Same as the idea that players as good as Gomes and Chong would NEVER have got a chance under him. Yet this is guy who could happily pick a Young over a Di Maria, a teenaged Martial over a Delay because the worse in one case and kid another week put performing the super stars.


I simply quote LVG himself:

"Asked if the flurry of young players could galvanise United's support Van Gaal replied: "I shall never use for myself, only for the team to improve the team. I have a philosophy, for example, that I don't want a great or wide squads, because then you cannot give youngsters a chance and now you see a lot of youngsters who can show their quality and you can also win, but it's a big risk."

That is for the next poster who wants to lie to us having a thing squad was not planned by LVG and he was just 'force' to play youth.

You can knock LVG on everything else. Never his policy and planning for youth players.

Giving everyone a chance and them not being good enough IS the point. It is 100% the point. Are you saying that rather than the club going for Lukaku/Sanchez type talent, you'd rather have Rashford/Martial as first choice supported by Dearnley and Bohui?

Only 11 players can play every game. United cannot afford to lose games while giving everyone a chance. Like it or not, Donald Love and Paddy McNair playing games prevents real talent like Tuanzebe from getting games. Bench or not, he played zero minutes under LVG. LVG also sold Michael Keane (now an England international and big money transfer) for peanuts. Maybe he is just a really bad judge of defenders.

Re Fosu Mensah, what are you talking about? I said he was one of the best players in the reserves and LVG rightfully promoted him. I don't go to ridiculous extremes to prove an argument. He was right to promote Fosu Mensah and deserves credit for it.

I did not say it wasn't planned to have a thin squad and play youth. I'm saying it was a stupid plan. With all of the money he spent is was gross negligence from a man entrusted with rebuilding the squad. The team finished 5th in a really low quality Premier League.

You believe that playing youth players and giving them all a chance is positive. That's great and you are entitled to your opinion.

I completely disagree. Playing crap youth players is no more noble than playing crap first team squad players and with the lack of experience will make you even less successful.

There is one reason to play young players in the first team and one only. That they will eventually be good enough to be regular first team players. As a manager, the job is to identify those with the talent and develop them into first team players. To me, LVG showed no signs that he could do that at United.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Signing Lukaku and Sanchez was the attempt to sign top players. Both for big money (Lukaku's fee, Sanchez's wages). City desperately wanted Sanchez. Neither are playing well but hindsight is 20-20. Lukaku looked an excellent signing in his first season and Sanchez was one of the best players in the league at Arsenal.

On the bolded above, nobody should be guaranteed their place in the United team. When you look back at players like Giggs, Beckham, Ronaldo, Scholes, Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic, Yorke, Cole, etc. who were dropped when out of form and now people expect unproven kids to be guaranteed starters?

Let me correct you since you didn’t read my post properly.

Signing Lukaku and Sanchez and also interest in Perisic was the attempt to sign top players to replace our young players like Rashford & Martial, so those two youngsters don’t get playing time and sit on the bench!

What we should be doing is signing a top player to replace Mata, signing top centre back, & signing top full backs so they can play regularly alongside Martial & Rashford.

Are you trying to tell me that Mourinho has treated both Martial & Rashford well enough? I’m not asking players to be undroppable. Martial was dropped right away when he was on form last season after we signed Sanchez. Rashford got dropped when he didn’t score for 2 games. But players like Lukaku & Matic were given a lot of chances until they find their form back, it’s ridiculous! And somehow you acted like Mourinho has treated them fairly.

In 2004-2006, we didn’t win a single league title for three years despite of having some world class players like Giggs, Keane, RVN. Just like you, RVN was questioning Sir Alex’s ambition was focusing too much on developing young players like Fletcher, Rooney & Ronaldo by giving them a lot of regular playing time instead of signing top players to replace them, as a result RVN left. And look at what happened after RVN left, he was proven wrong and we won 3 league title in a row.

 

[POF]

Let me correct you since you didn’t read my post properly.

Signing Lukaku and Sanchez and also interest in Perisic was the attempt to sign top players to replace our young players like Rashford & Martial, so those two youngsters don’t get playing time and sit on the bench!

What we should be doing is signing a top player to replace Mata, signing top centre back, & signing top full backs so they can play regularly alongside Martial & Rashford.

Are you trying to tell me that Mourinho has treated both Martial & Rashford well enough? I’m not asking players to be undroppable. Martial was dropped right away when he was on form last season after we signed Sanchez. Rashford got dropped when he didn’t score for 2 games. But players like Lukaku & Matic were given a lot of chances until they find their form back, it’s ridiculous! And somehow you acted like Mourinho has treated them fairly.

In 2004-2006, we didn’t win a single league title for three years despite of having some world class players like Giggs, Keane, RVN. Just like you, RVN was questioning Sir Alex’s ambition was focusing too much on developing young players like Fletcher, Rooney & Ronaldo by giving them a lot of regular playing time instead of signing top players to replace them, as a result RVN left. And look at what happened after RVN left, he was proven wrong and we won 3 league title in a row.

How many times have Rashford and Martial been left out of the squad entirely? I believe it was late last season (Jose's second season in charge) for the first time under Jose that Rashford didn't get on the pitch in a game where he was fit to play. Even that was due to having to make an injury replacement instead. That is an incredible appearance record for a kid of his age at a club like United.

Rashford if anything has probably been played too often. When he went through his sulky phase last season, he should have been dropped from the squad. Martial, I agree has been harshly treated at times.

Just like me? So, just like me, can you remind me of how many seasons that United squad finished 5th in a dreadful standard league, played mind numbingly dreadful football, went 10 games without scoring a first half goal, capitulated in the crucial games when the pressure was on and had a manager that spent a fortune to make the squad worse than the one he inherited?

Van Nistelrooy was sold because he fell out with Ronaldo (and as a result, Fergie) and was marginalised at the end of the season.

Just to be clear, I believe United are desperately in need of a restructure. The club needs a structure that allows a long term strategy around building a balanced playing squad, both via recruitment and the academy. That structure should work with but not rely on the manager.

In players like Garner, Chong, Gomes, Greenwood, Traore and O'Connor, the club has some real genuine top class youth talent coming through and I would love for them to be the future of the club.

I don't think your ideology is misplaced but your faith in LVG being able to deliver it is. After 2 years, it was patently obvious that things were only going to get worse under his tenure. Much like Jose right now.