Agreed. As a genuine pretend cowboy, I don't like being associated with these city folk that just don't get it. This is definitely the place to let my thoughts be known because all stereotypes matter...
The "lazy black player" stereotype
- Thread starter Barca84
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Posters who continuously go on about Pogba's hair and Lukaku's laziness probably have implicit biases against black people and they should really try to be more sensible and considerate, but what I'm seeing here (correct me if I'm wrong) is posters who makes a one-off comment about Pogba or Lukaku are being painted with the same brush as the first type of posters by some folks. I don't think that's the way forward.
You see I don’t even get this continuously thing. Are we able to name any posters that continuously bang on about Pogba’s hair, or Lukaku’s laziness? If we’re talking about constants, are we then going to pick out the posters that are constantly saying Luke Shaw has man tits, and Jones looks like a thick oaf that pulls all sort of grotesque faces. There has to be consistency to these claims or else I’m going to call bullshit. All that’s been provided thus far by the OP himself is a list of posts that may be harsh, but only one of them could be branded racist.
I don’t know about the lazy stereotype but the physical one is blatant. Quick and strong is almost always used to define a black CM.
It’s why any heavy poor technical forward is likened to Heskey or
Any Black defensive or centre midfielder is compared to Viera.
It’s why any heavy poor technical forward is likened to Heskey or
Any Black defensive or centre midfielder is compared to Viera.
I did say 'further digression' and 'minor bugbear'.
The bugbear relates to the association this term 'the West' has with military actions undertaken by American, together with selected allied (most notably British) forces. I also suspect there's linkage to something colonial or imperial, in which case you can stuff the term as I'm Irish not Western.
Lukaku has really dropped off with his work ethic this season and looks a lot bulkier than previously. Are fans not allowed to call him lazy simply as he's black?
I saw no mercy for Shaw during the summer when his fat pics came out. Rooney also was called fat, lazy and had many critics of his hair. Did the same posters have implicit bias against white people? Or were they simply passing comments against high profile sports stars?
Well that's a lot more civilised than calling the post 'bollocks'.
Thank you.
Lukaku is definitely one of the dumbest and laziest players on the pitch, I have no idea how can people watch games and say people say that because he is black. Our player who looks hardworking lately is Rashford, and yesterday he played really intelligent football, it's his end product that make people say he is stupid(just like many white players at start of their career) but generally his movement is very intelligent and people acknowledge that. Ashley Young is also generally very hard working player, and recognised as such.
People generally think Jones and Rojo are far more stupid than Smalling and Bailly too.
Can we please stop defending underperforming players and blame it on racism?
People generally think Jones and Rojo are far more stupid than Smalling and Bailly too.
Can we please stop defending underperforming players and blame it on racism?
There isn't a history of white people being stereotyped as lazy, hence why calling a white player fat doesn't have the same implicit bias as it does when you do it for black players.
Lukaku and Rashford have played a similar amount of minutes in the CL this season. Rashford has run 8 km further.
No one at any point called him the shit Lukaku is called weekly. Not at any point. Even after his more profligate games.
And tight on queue the lies and double standards begin. Last season Lukaku was constantly abused as awful. Yet at no point last season was he statistically even in the top 10 for big chances missed. And his convetsion rate was superior to strikers, rgularly hailed as twice his worth on here. Quit playing with scissors and cut the crap.....
absolute lies
He isnt being 'rightly criticised'. He is being still called alot of over the top crap.
Lukaku isn't lazy, he is just too big to run a lot.
Personally, I do not associate black players with laziness at all.
Personally, I do not associate black players with laziness at all.
/thread
Taking a thread off topic
Do you know if the BLM organisation made a public statement or similar condemning the content of the article, stated that the writer wasnt part of their organisation and/ or highlighting that it didnt agree with the viewpoints expressed
There is no implicit bias when someone calls a person lazy, black or otherwise
A person can be racist and call someone lazy as a method of racist abuse.
Big difference
What?
no need to explain. just trying to take the sting out of this thread a little. I'll just go ahead and add one of my favorites:I did say 'further digression' and 'minor bugbear'.
The bugbear relates to the association this term 'the West' has with military actions undertaken by American, together with selected allied (most notably British) forces. I also suspect there's linkage to something colonial or imperial, in which case you can stuff the term as I'm Irish not Western.
Lukaku is lazy because he doesn’t fecking move. He is dumb because his movement and spatial awareness seem to be abysmal.
Rashford is neither. Stop harping this racism nonsense when it’s obviously not the case.
People get offended about anything and everything these days. This plea for attention is sickening.
Rashford is neither. Stop harping this racism nonsense when it’s obviously not the case.
People get offended about anything and everything these days. This plea for attention is sickening.
Why would they?
There's no laws that ban someone from calling their organisation similar to theirs - unless they have trademarked/copyrighted the term 'BLM' and all other subsidiaries associated to it. Given the amount of legal loopholes needed, and sheer cost of legal advice in order to do that - it's incredibly unlikely.
It falls under fake news, and takes less than 2 minutes to properly research and find whether it's credible or otherwise (which is how long it took me)
There is implicit bias of black people being stereotyped as lazy
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.473.7868&rep=rep1&type=pdf
https://nmaahc.si.edu/blog-post/popular-and-pervasive-stereotypes-african-americans
https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/links/essays/vcu.htm
It hails from the Jim Crow era (in US) and colonialism (in Europe) - if you aren't aware of this, fine but to simply say it doesn't exist, is false.
That's the whole reason why the OP created this thread.
See above. Not sure what's funny about it.What?
Lukaku is lazy and thick, though. Plenty of very good, hard working and intelligent Man Utd BAME players have played for United, haven’t they?
So it sounds like it is just your opinion that it is 'fake news'
On your crow point. Yes people have used the term 'lazy' in racial diatribes. Does not mean that if someone from 2000 who uses that term is implicitly racist nor the term racist either. It's getting very 1984 if everyday words are being taken out of service, while it also promoting discrimination to have 'rules' of what cannot be done or said to someone because of their skin color. I'm not partaking in that behaviour, as quite frankly it's the first step towards branding people with arm bands
The origin of this thread is unsavoury and damaging. The sooner we move away from describing people by their colour/ sexuality/ gender, the sooner we get closer to true human fellowship that is a pillar of a true civilization
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Garth Crooks always goes on about Pogba's hair, and that he's indiciplined and not good enough. Does he have an implicit racial bias? It's really not as black or white (you see what I did there) as some people make out.
No it's fake, not an opinion.
Unless you can find reference to that particular writer or 'Black Lives Matter Louisville' on the BLM website? https://blacklivesmatter.com/
Or maybe, a reference to the black lives matter website, on the Louisville website? http://blackliveslouisville.org/
The logos & fonts used are different because they know they can't use the same ones for fear of catching a court case - however they capitalise on the fact that the casual lurker will conflate the two, and they'll get easy clicks.
Which is exactly what you did.
On the second point - i've already said that in my opinion, Lukaku has been lazier this season.
I was simply pointing out that saying 'there is no implicit bias of black people being stereotyped as lazy' is false and awareness of that fact shouldn't be brushed under the rug.
Also there's no reason to stop describing people by their colour/sexuality/gender - there's a reason to stop being racist (or whatever -ist), that's all.
I would continue the conversation, but i've been giving a warning point on the BLM thing for thread derailment
It seems we have divergent views on things, but I will make one final point. Saying that there is implicit racism/ discrimination in the use of certain words is wrong in my view, it is all about context. Even some of the vilest racial slurs are not racist in certain contexts (it can be used as affection between tried a for example), I'm more interested in the intent behind people's actions and behaviours.
Likening Lukaku to a gorilla. That's racism. But, is calling him a lazy, fat, dumb(?) oaf racism? No. That's true because those words are good descriptors of Lukaku. He's not completely dumb though. He knows his way in a box. That's how he's been able to score the goals that he's scored
Pogba isn't dumb. He is an intelligent footballer. But, you don't need rocket science to see his lack of effort on the pitch.
There are plenty of black players who are both intelligent and hard working. Case in point Kanté, Fernandinho, Sterling, Mané.
One shouldn't cherry pick comments about Pogba & Lukaku in our squad. All our players look like either lazy donkeys (Pogba, Fellaini) or headless chickens (Herrera, Lingard) or just brainfarts waiting to happen (Jones, Rojo, Lindelöf, Smal..... well, most of our defense). We wouldn't even be having the need to create a thread like this if we had better management
Pogba isn't dumb. He is an intelligent footballer. But, you don't need rocket science to see his lack of effort on the pitch.
There are plenty of black players who are both intelligent and hard working. Case in point Kanté, Fernandinho, Sterling, Mané.
One shouldn't cherry pick comments about Pogba & Lukaku in our squad. All our players look like either lazy donkeys (Pogba, Fellaini) or headless chickens (Herrera, Lingard) or just brainfarts waiting to happen (Jones, Rojo, Lindelöf, Smal..... well, most of our defense
). We wouldn't even be having the need to create a thread like this if we had better managementDuring the war, Stalin discussed with Marshal Zhukov the plans for a new offensive. "What do you think, comrade Zhukov, what direction should we choose for the attack?"
"West, comrade Stalin."
"Go and think, comrade Zhukov!"
As Zhukov walked out, he muttered, "What a pig!"
Stalin's secretary Poskrebyshev overheard the Marshal and reported to Stalin. Zhukov was ordered back to Stalin's office.
"Whom did you have in mind when you said 'What a pig?' Stalin asked.
"Of course, I meant Hitler," Zhukov said.
"Then whom did you have in mind, comrade Poskrebyshev?" Stalin said.
"West, comrade Stalin."
"Go and think, comrade Zhukov!"
As Zhukov walked out, he muttered, "What a pig!"
Stalin's secretary Poskrebyshev overheard the Marshal and reported to Stalin. Zhukov was ordered back to Stalin's office.
"Whom did you have in mind when you said 'What a pig?' Stalin asked.
"Of course, I meant Hitler," Zhukov said.
"Then whom did you have in mind, comrade Poskrebyshev?" Stalin said.
Intent doesn't take away racism.
For example - the song about Lukaku's 40-inch penis was racist, though well intentioned.
Antoine Griezmann dressing up in blackface for halloween - was racist, though well intentioned.
Context doesn't make racism a non-factor, it can add endearment for example but a racist action is still racist, even if it's done with the intent not to cause harm.
We need to break away from this idea that racism only exists in the most cruellest of examples such as skinheads and Nazis.
Racism and micro-aggressions are common, and People of Colour have been saying as much for decades - so if you (speaking generally, not necessarily aimed at you) aren't aware of this, or are alarmed by it's sudden commonality - it doesn't mean that society is on some destructive war path to an Orweillan society.
It just means there is more transparency on the issues that PoC have been talking about for many years.
Well said. I listened to a podcast in the summer where Lukaku talked about his up bringing and how hard he had to work as a child to help his family move out of poverty. Inspirational stuff but on here all he's called is a lazy shit and a dumbass.
@Barca84 Despite answering posts either side of this one, you seem to have missed it. Thoughts on my question?
@villain You are usually the best person to clarify these things on here and I trust your judgment these days, so I have a question. What is the purpose of this discussion in particular? As in, what's the goal here?
Now that might sound like a simple thing (obviously not in practical terms mind!), to end Racism but what I'm specifically referring to is the thread title. "Lazy Black Player". Now is there a huge amount of this actually being said, or is that misleading? I mean only an idiot would think this isn't an actual thing, people may not even know they do it, but stereotyping is real and this off course happens. I'm guilty of it myself, and I'll admit it, I often think of black players to be more physical specimens when in reality obviously that's wrong.
What I'm getting at, is what are we actually saying here? Stop calling black players lazy full stop? Is it ok if we all agree and promise to only say it because someone is actually lazy? I'm not being funny with this at all, I just think these discussions don't actually go anywhere because this kind of question isn't ever answered, i.e if most of use aren't actually being racist and just think a black player is lazy, how is the difference seen?
I'm probably explaining my point badly, but I guess what I'm saying is the thread title is loaded and there doesn't seem to be much discussion on the way we move forward. It doesn't help that those little loops are thrown in from the start, like the question to barca above and the whole "stop saying the race card is being pulled!" thing. Because just as sure as there are people with inherent racist views, there are those who jump to the wrong conclusion about these matters over and over. Just seems to me like a vicious circle and there's never an honest answer to an honest question.
This thread tells you all you need to know about way racial undertones will never be eradicated from the game or society as a whole.
This is very well said and hits the nail firmly on the head for me.
Is the wrong attitude.
I don't mind if you says it is the wrong attitude, it is the plain truth.
Secondly I am a realist. Racial undertones will always exist because people in general love labels.
Realist, negative, whatever you like. It's still the wrong attitude if we want things to change going forward imo.
Do you have any thoughts on what I asked Villain above btw? You often seem involved in these conversations so I'd be interested in your views if you have time mate.
I said initially that I think the OP conflated two stereotypes into one.
There is a stereotype of calling black people lazy.
There is a stereotype of calling black players/athletes 'specimens','beasts','tanks' etc.
As far as i'm aware calling black players lazy isn't as well versed as the first two stereotypes - not to say they they don't exist, I just don't think they are as common.
So to that point the title' Lazy Black Player' is misleading in comparison to the other thread which described black players as physical beasts - and I think that has created a potential problem for him in that some people have barged in there clumsily to call him out specifically for the thread title, while missing the point. But from what I can see, he's been handling it very well - I probably would've lost my marbles by now.
I've also said that in my opinion - Lukaku has been lazier this season, not because he's black obviously - but because he doesn't influence play as much as he did last season for example.
So I don't personally see anything wrong with calling his recent contributions to our team lazy, in fact i'd agree (but most of our players have been lazy/useless this season tbf)
I don't want to put words in the mouth of the OP but I think his high-level perspective is that the criticism of Lukaku straddles the line of racism quite frequently - and to that point i'd agree. I actively avoid reading his player performance thread because I don't want to read such comments which have racial undertones - it's bad enough when you scroll through the match-day thread - and people are comparing him to any random black person for the lolz
In terms of the long term goal - I would say awareness of connotations that language can convey?
I don't blame you for having the misconception that black players are more physically strong - because society has shaped your perspective to think that, but having the clarity to admit your own biases is more than what most can say.
Often times people hear the word racism and their immediate response is to take that as an insult, rather than an opportunity to learn - and thats why you end up with these chaotic threads - where people care more about proving others wrong and not much discussion being had.
Straw man. Where did I say this? If you read one of my posts in the previous page, I said everyone should have the right to call Lukaku lazy and I'm even of the opinion that the accusations thrown by some posters here has gone too far. But if you think that those who go on all the time about Lukaku's laziness or Pogba's dancing and whatnot don't have implicit biases against black people, then I think you're being obtuse.
I happen to think that painting people who make a passing comment on Lukaku and Pogba with the same brush as those who perpetually go on about Lukaku's perceived laziness or Pogba's dancing is wrong and counterproductive. I also happen to think there are racial undertones in some, though not all, criticism levelled at Lukaku or Pogba. I'm saying this based on what I see not only in here but also throughout United Twitterverse.
It's that simple. Really, both the 'all references of laziness on black footballers is racist' crowd as well as the 'you can say whatever you want' crowd need to calm down.
As always, thank you.
I'm glad I was right to initially think @Barca84 got this one wrong with the thread title and how he began this. The message is correct, but if you want to have a real discussion and avoid the usual shit storm you need to approach this kind of discussion with clarity from the off. It's just such a shame every thread on the topic has to go this way, but at least it highlights that the drive forward and fight against racism never ends.
The thing is, you just don't know what other posters have in mind when saying things. So accusing someone as being racist on what you think they're thinking, is a wrong thing to do, if you can't back it up with any prove.
Pretty much most of the #10s (irrespective of color) have been called lazy or words to the effect. Luxury player is a more polite way saying lazy. From Riquelme, to Pirlo to Ronaldinho...the concept lazy is pretty much universal to anyone, esp forwards/AMs who do not contribute defensively. I doubt lazy is anyhow restricted to black players.