The "lazy black player" stereotype

[2 man midfield]

Mata's Big Chorizo
Romelu's Anaconda
Paul Pogba's Python
McTominay's Shepherd's Staff
Lingard's got a Long One
Marcus' Massive Manhood
Tony's Terrific Todger
etc.

Chong’s long dong

 

[crossy1686]

There are some players who clearly have low football intelligence, relative to the level they play at.

Look at Adama Traore. He makes the wrong decisions the majority of the time. He's the most frustrating player to watch in the league because whilst he is clearly talented on the ball and a great athlete, he's lacking in the mental side of the game. Every game I've watched him in he does something you can't understand, he will look bright and threatening but totally fail when it comes to that final decision.

People can call that a racial stereotype if they like. I also think that Didier Drogba is one of the most intelligent footballers in recent PL history though. He held up the ball superbly, knew exactly when to win a free kick or buy time for his team when they were under pressure.

We're talking about different things here though? Decision making, composure, consistency, final ball, runs off the ball, are these what we're defining as footballing intelligence? You and I may, but someone else might say it's positioning, finishing under pressure and vision.

I'm not disputing that football intelligence isn't a thing and I've already said I'll concede my point if we can all come to an objective agreement as to what defines footballing intelligence. My point is that we can't use that term broadly as that's just lazy to do so because we all have a different definition for what it is. The worrying thing that someone else pointed out is that players who aren't white often get labeled this, whereas white players are just 'a bit shit' instead.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I actually don’t know, you might well be right.

We could try it but Jose would probably come out in the post match presser and tell everyone his is bigger.

We'll sing one for him too!

Jose's Jumbo Junk
Its big as a tree trunk
And it's won more leagues than you
It's thicker than a tree
And when Jose holds up three
He means that you can suck on it
Unless you've won the Champions League!

 

[Redlambs]

To be honest I know why you say this, but unless you understand where I am coming from you wouldn't understand what I meant.

But I don't. The only way forward is to educate on the matter because of that. Not that I'm saying you personally should lead the charge mate, just that it should never be dismissed like that.

People can change and often do, but even if not, we can affect the future generations to not have to change.

I am realistic, and people/humans in general as a whole don't want top change certain things and never will. Anyway thats another conversation all together. Its like thinking you could eradicate violence from the world, never gong to happen. You can only control and minimise it.

As to your question I don't think anyone would say you shouldn't call a player lazy if he is lazy just because he is black. However the OP was bringing up the point that black players are very often labeled lazy or dumb or having attitude problems and disproportionally to their white counter parts. That is the issue, why is that?

What you can't discount is how they are depicted and talked about in the media as Sterling was alluding to only the other week.

The way forward? Ask yourself why black players are label in this way disproportionally to their white counterparts? Be willing to understand the biases that exist.

The media needs to be more accountable for how they talk about certain players for one.

Understand the connotations and chose your words carefully.

I'm 100% on side with this one. But I also think when talking about this and taking it on, you should also choose your words carefully. Like the thread title here, and the first responding post in the Pogba thread, you need to tackle these subjects in a way to make people understand more.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

We're talking about different things here though? Decision making, composure, consistency, final ball, runs off the ball, are these what we're defining as footballing intelligence? You and I may, but someone else might say it's positioning, finishing under pressure and vision.

I'm not disputing that football intelligence isn't a thing and I've already said I'll concede my point if we can all come to an objective agreement as to what defines footballing intelligence. My point is that we can't use that term broadly as that's just lazy to do so because we all have a different definition for what it is. The worrying thing that someone else pointed out is that players who aren't white often get labeled this, whereas white players are just 'a bit shit' instead.

Depends on the position they play. Drogba was what I would describe as a very intelligent striker for example, Kante is a very intelligent player in his preferred role too (fantastic at anticipating player, timing tackles etc) despite not having great vision. Then you have the obvious candidates like Xavi who were able to read the game brilliantly. I agree that 'football intelligence' is a vague term though, but I can see why people would brand a player stupid if he consistently takes the wrong option, fails to hold up the ball when he needs to etc.

I fundamentally disagree with the latter point, loads of white players get labelled as lacking intelligence, composure etc. Phil Jones has been stuck with the 'bit of a moron' tag for years. Shane Long is often seen as the stereotypical runs around a lot, very athletic but shite in the final third trier. People mocked Rooney for years for lacking intelligence despite the fact that he was actually very intelligent in football terms. Look at Alberto Moreno! Every Liverpool fan I know described him constantly as talented but completely brain dead.

In fairness though, I don't think Lukaku is stupid, and I do believe it's a bit lazy to throw that label at him. In the past he's shown intelligent movement as a striker at Everton/for the NT, I don't think there is much wrong with the mental side of his game when he's on form. I've seen loads of players get called 'fecking idiots' and other similar comments when they perform like shit though, over various forums. It's just a lazy, go to insult for people when they're frustrated with the performance of a player.

 

[Raees]

I actually don’t know, you might well be right.

We could try it but Jose would probably come out in the post match presser and tell everyone his is bigger.

Jose doesn’t need a dong when he’s got three fingers

 

[2 man midfield]

We'll sing one for him too!

Jose's Jumbo Junk
Its big as a tree trunk
And it's won more leagues than you
It's thicker than a tree
And when Jose holds up three
He means that you can suck on it
Unless you've won the Champions League!

Jose has a massive dong
He showed it to Geoff Shreeves
He took one glance
Said put it back in your pants
Duncan Castles will get peeved

 

[Sgt.Major]

I'm pretty sure no one ever called Makelele, Seedorf or Thuram stupid, or thought of them like that.

 

[POF]

I'm not sure if this board has a problem with "casual racism" but it certainly has a problem with casual accusations of racism.

Many people talk on this thread about people needing to know their history to truly understand the connotations of referring to people by a certain phrase or in a certain way. I would say the same applies to labelling someone "racist". Some of the worst atrocities in history were carried out under that banner and as a result it has shameful connotations and rightly so.

I find it shocking how readily and easily the accusation is thrown out.

 

[yumtum]

It's fine to say anyone is fat/shit/overweight, no one is saying you can't say those things just because of someone's skin colour. The smartness thing is however more subjective. Lukaku actually speaks about 4 or 5 different languages, many people on here struggle to speak one and don't have an education so who's smart and who's not? People should really ask themselves these questions before making such comments.

And regarding the gorilla comment. It was about the most racist thing I've seen on this forum, don't make excuses for people like that. The comment was something along the lines of "If we swapped Lukaku with a silver back gorilla, no one would notice". If you would care to defend that you should probably ask yourself why you feel the need to.

I understand that people get upset about people getting upset on behalf of other people or the 'PC brigade' but it's 2018 and you can't just say the stupidest shit that pops into your head anymore, it's not okay. Segregation and ignorance are real, they exist everywhere. It's important that it's challenged so people can be educated on why it's not okay to say certain things anymore. These comments aren't funny and they just hurt people on the receiving end.

No doubt Lukaku is a smart guys, speaking multiple languages, but when posters on a football forum call a player dumb, or thick etc, then they mean their football IQ, it's easier to call them an "idiot" rather than "lacks football IQ".

Rooney is an obvious one here, dumb as a doornail outside of football, but on the football field he's a genius.

Also, the silver back gorilla was a poor choice of words, he may be racist, he could have used the word donkey to be safe, no idea why he used the gorilla reference, I can see both points of view.

 

[Cassidy]

But I don't. The only way forward is to educate on the matter because of that. Not that I'm saying you personally should lead the charge mate, just that it should never be dismissed like that.

People can change and often do, but even if not, we can affect the future generations to not have to change.

I have been doing so in life and even in this thread.
However I do disagree that people as a whole can change. Individuals do like yourself who are open to discussion.

I could be wrong though, but thats just my opinion. History I would say also would show some things remain the same in people no matter how civilised we have become.

 

[WR10]

I mean I was comparing Rooney to a gorilla in his last couple seasons for us.

Having said that, I can understand that the general public will unfortunately make further racist associations when it comes to Lukaku. The facts are though that almost every comment about his god awful technical abilities are bang on

 

[Cassidy]

I mean I was comparing Rooney to a gorilla in his last couple seasons for us.

Having said that, I can understand that the general public will unfortunately make further racist associations when it comes to Lukaku. The facts are though that almost every comment about his god awful technical abilities are bang on

Then say he has poor technique, no one is going to complain about that

 

[Toad]

More than a glimmer pal. The thing with casual racism 2 man is that it's all over the shop. Just a few comments from that thread -

























His player performance thread is a mine of such comments also.

A lot of white lads getting very worked up in here.

Am I getting called a racist for saying he is unintelligent? Either I’m getting the wrong end of the stick or you lot have lost your fecking minds.

 

[Cassidy]

I'm not sure if this board has a problem with "casual racism" but it certainly has a problem with casual accusations of racism.

Many people talk on this thread about people needing to know their history to truly understand the connotations of referring to people by a certain phrase or in a certain way. I would say the same applies to labelling someone "racist". Some of the worst atrocities in history were carried out under that banner and as a result it has shameful connotations and rightly so.

I find it shocking how readily and easily the accusation is thrown out.

Did someone call someone a racist in here?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Then say he has poor technique, no one is going to complain about that

Ahem.

Black, Fast and Zero Skills

 

[Cassidy]

I'm pretty sure no one ever called Makelele, Seedorf or Thuram stupid, or thought of them like that.

Your point being?

 

[Cassidy]

Ahem.

Black, Fast and Zero Skills

Haha wait what. I hadnt even seen that thread before

 

[Cassidy]

I'm pretty sure no one ever called Makelele, Seedorf or Thuram stupid, or thought of them like that.

See how Thurams former teammate sees African players

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...lly-Sagnol-apologises-for-African-remark.html

 

[Redlambs]

I have been doing so in life and even in this thread.
However I do disagree that people as a whole can change. Individuals do like yourself who are open to discussion.

I could be wrong though, but thats just my opinion. History I would say also would show some things remain the same in people no matter how civilised we have become.

History is not the future.




Wow. Did I just say that? Sounds like a big moment from a Marvel film!

 

[Cassidy]

History is not the future.




Wow. Did I just say that? Sounds like a big moment from a Marvel film!

 

[Sgt.Major]

Your point being?

My point is that the reason behind calling a certain player stupid is not his skin color, but what he's doing on the pitch. I mean, look at the Matic performances thread all the shit he's getting, being called names and stuff, but that didn't spark an outrage like these comments about Lukaku. Of course, the one with the gorilla resemblance is disgusting, unacceptable and clearly racist.

Regarding the Sagnol's comment, although poorly worded, I don't think it's racist. He probably wanted to say that African players simply lack certain skills European or South American players have, because they're coming from the countries with less coaches, football infrastructure and football tradition. In my opinion, his words also apply to other parts of the world, like Australia, China, Russia, North America etc, bar maybe the infrastructure part. Remember Tevez said that Chinese players ain't skilled and they won't be able to compete at the highest level in European leagues for at least 50 years more? While that might sound abusive, I think there is a point in such remarks, strictly related to the football culture of a particular country in terms of everything that helps the football players to improve their abilities and skills, not to race or nationality. Physical advantages of the black athletes over whites are obvious, just look at the NBA, NFL or running disciplines.

There's no racism in saying that what's Lukaku doing on the pitch is stupid in most cases or that the grown players coming from Africa generally have the smaller set of skills than those trained from the earliest days in, for example, Italy, Spain, Germany or England. It's about where they're coming from, not about who they are.

 

[Vato]

People of colour have to be defined by their ethnicity as a differentiator, white people don't need to be because they are assumed to be the default.

Am I wrong in this?

No, you're not. The luxury part is just wanting to add unnecessary drama to it.

 

[Cassidy]

My point is that the reason behind calling a certain player stupid is not his skin color, but what he's doing on the pitch. I mean, look at the Matic performances thread all the shit he's getting, being called names and stuff, but that didn't spark an outrage like these comments about Lukaku. Of course, the one with the gorilla resemblance is disgusting, unacceptable and clearly racist.

Regarding the Sagnol's comment, although poorly worded, I don't think it's racist. He probably wanted to say that African players simply lack certain skills European or South American players have, because they're coming from the countries with less coaches, football infrastructure and football tradition. In my opinion, his words also apply to other parts of the world, like Australia, China, Russia, North America etc, bar maybe the infrastructure part. Remember Tevez said that Chinese players ain't skilled and they won't be able to compete at the highest level in European leagues for at least 50 years more? While that might sound abusive, I think there is a point in such remarks, strictly related to the football culture of a particular country in terms of everything that helps the football to improve their abilities and skills, not race or nationality. Physical advantages of the black athletes over whites are obvious, just look at the NBA, NFL or running disciplines.

There's no racism in saying that what's Lukaku doing on the pitch is stupid in most cases or that the grown players coming from Africa generally have the smaller set of skills than those trained from the earliest days in, for example, Italy, Spain, Germany or England.

Please find me where the media label Matic as unintelligent.

I’m not calling Willy Sangol racist btw just letting you know that the stereotype exists.

Also the reason why I asked whats your point is that you can always find counter examples and they are always in the monitory.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Am I getting called a racist for saying he is unintelligent? Either I’m getting the wrong end of the stick or you lot have lost your fecking minds.

Racist white lads, to be specific.

 

[Sgt.Major]

Please find me where the media label Matic as unintelligent.

I’m not calling Willy Sangol racist btw just letting you know that the stereotype exists.

Also the reason why I asked whats your point is that you can always find counter examples and they are always in the monitory.

Well this thread is about what regular fans are saying about Lukaku, not about the media. The media are often biased, even Lukaku talked about that in his piece for The Players Tribune (https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/romelu-lukaku-ive-got-some-things-to-say in case you missed it). The stereotype exists here and there, I'm not denying that, just wanted to say my personal thoughts about the cited quote.

 

[Cassidy]

Well this thread is about what regular fans are saying about Lukaku, not about the media. The media are often biased, even Lukaku talked about that in his piece for The Players Tribune (https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/romelu-lukaku-ive-got-some-things-to-say in case you missed it). The stereotype exists here and there, I'm not denying that, just wanted to say my personal thoughts about the cited quote.

I understood the OP to be making a point about black players in general and used Lukaku as an example

 

[Sgt.Major]

I understood the OP to be making a point about black players in general and used Lukaku as an example

Which media called Lukaku stupid? That would be a good reason for a fat lawsuit with almost no chance of loosing it.

 

[Toad]

Racist white lads, to be specific.

Fair enough but Lukaku is still thick as shit

 

[Tarrou]

Fair enough but Lukaku is still thick as shit

Have you heard him talk much? He's very articulate and measured.

 

[Cassidy]

In terms of 'footballing intelligence': Lukaku is dumb. Really, really dumb. That's not up for debate, and has nothing to do with the colour of his skin. His movement has been shocking. His timing of runs is appalling. His anticipation of his team mates actions is non-existent. He can't read the flight of the ball. He's been deliberately and obviously hiding from the ball in plenty of matches this season. He's also several stone overweight.

Just from the United squad, Matic has been subjected to a number of the same criticisms as Lukaku this season (aside from the obvious, panicking in front of goal etc). I can also think of a myriad of white strikers who have had some or all of the same criticisms Lukaku has rightfully levelled at him: being slow to react, poor movement, sluggish on the ball, lazy, not having any understanding with team mates etc etc.

Did Saha have to face any of these "black footballer stereotype" criticisms? Even when going through patches of poor form? No. Did Yorke or Cole? No. Because they made great runs, had good link up with their team mates and were genuinely top quality strikers. Lukaku barely belongs in the same league as those three let alone the same team. End of.

Are you seriously going to say Cole didnt have to deal with racist stereotypes when it came to his football? Maybe you should ask Cole himself and see what he says about that

 

[hobbers]

Are you seriously going to say Cole didnt have to deal with racist stereotypes when it came to his football? Maybe you should ask Cole himself and see what he says about that

He had to deal with off-the-pitch racial stereotyping, much like Raheem. But I'm not having any linking of that to on-field criticisms which are perfectly valid and fired at players regardless of their skin colour.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Have you heard him talk much? He's very articulate and measured.

Indeed. Question his on field intelligence this season all you like (he appears to have forgotten the basic art of holding up a ball, or making runs) but off the pitch he comes across as one of the more intelligent footballers. Excellent article came about about him before the World Cup, and he's able to speak multiple languages.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Are you seriously going to say Cole didnt have to deal with racist stereotypes when it came to his football? Maybe you should ask Cole himself and see what he says about that

I love the man but feel that he was/is derided by many for some reason that I don't understand. #legend IMHO.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Indeed. Question his on field intelligence this season all you like (he appears to have forgotten the basic art of holding up a ball, or making runs) but off the pitch he comes across as one of the more intelligent footballers. Excellent article came about about him before the World Cup, and he's able to speak multiple languages.

He's admitted making the mistake of bulking up to the detriment of his game. That doesn't make him unintelligent just too heavy.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

He's admitted making the mistake of bulking up to the detriment of his game. That doesn't make him unintelligent just too heavy.

Some of his play this season definitely comes off as looking unintelligent. Bulking up doesn't stop you from attempting to make clever runs, and shouldn't stop you from being able to hold up a ball and lay it off.

I think the 'bulking up' aspect is overplayed personally, I do think it looks like he's having big issues with the mental side of his game in terms of his confidence.

 

[marukomu]

I've never heard this stereotype. Apart from Lukaku, who has it been used against?

 

[Spaghetti]

Are you seriously going to say Cole didnt have to deal with racist stereotypes when it came to his football? Maybe you should ask Cole himself and see what he says about that

He was called the “black pudding” for a while when things weren’t going so well.

Not sure if he got the “lazy” treatment though - despite his lazy tendencies at the barcodes he was generally labelled as a “poacher” and his work rate massively improved at United. We could do with him now!

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I've never heard this stereotype. Apart from Lukaku, who has it been used against?

I mentioned earlier but Kenwyne Jones used to get called lazy a hell of a lot.

But then, that quite clearly had nothing to do with race. I watched the man play live multiple times and I've never seen a player move about less.

 

[Cassidy]

He had to deal with off-the-pitch racial stereotyping, much like Raheem. But I'm not having any linking of that to on-field criticisms which are perfectly valid and fired at players regardless of their skin colour.

A reason I said maybe you should ask him. A friend if mine interviewed him on a football pod earlier this year. Especially in his earlier years he had to deal with an awful lot of racial sterotypes on the pitch as well as the off field stuff