Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[zkap]

Not trying to take any credit off Messi or your argument but when people talk of his "luck" to be in that Barcelona side it was because the core of that team managed to win great things without Messi (2 Euros and 1 WC).

It was a group of club team-mates, world class players, that happened to play for the same national team. I think it's an advantage of club football as opposed to international football that teams are better drilled because the players are together all the time. Spain reaped the benefits of having Barça's core run their team, and during the Guardiola era, no less.

This is not to say Messi didn't have a world class supporting cast, because he did. He still does. It's a tactics issue, Guardiola's Barça were exceptionally well organized and everything fit so this naturally translated onto the NT.

I get what you're saying, but you can invert the argument - Spain won everything without Messi and yet when that Catalan core in the Spanish NT played for Barça, Messi was still the No. 1 player on that team and it wasn't even close. Pep made him the center of possibly the best team ever assembled, I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Cal?]

It was a group of club team-mates, world class players, that happened to play for the same national team. I think it's an advantage of club football as opposed to international football that teams are better drilled because the players are together all the time. Spain reaped the benefits of having Barça's core run their team, and during the Guardiola era, no less.

This is not to say Messi didn't have a world class supporting cast, because he did. He still does. It's a tactics issue, Guardiola's Barça were exceptionally well organized and everything fit so this naturally translated onto the NT.

I get what you're saying, but you can invert the argument - Spain won everything without Messi and yet when that Catalan core in the Spanish NT played for Barça, Messi was still the No. 1 player on that team and it wasn't even close. Pep made him the center of possibly the best team ever assembled, I think that speaks volumes.

Ronaldo is the center of the first team to ever retain and then 3-peat the CL. Doesn’t that speak volumes?

 

[RedRonaldo]

Clarence Seedorf won five Champions Leagues with three different clubs, which is much better than Ronaldinho's one World Cup and one Champions League. Come to think of it, why isn't Seedorf compared to Ronaldo? Since the Champions League is the only trophy that counts, they both have five of those, but Seedorf won them with three different clubs as opposed to Ronaldo's two. So effectively Seedorf also took on many challenges in his career, but managed to disperse his CL trophies better. He had impressive longevity, too, retiring at 37 or something.

But it's the same thing as the individual awards argument, it's based on a stat heavily influenced by circumstance - the quality of the players around you, the work done by your manager and board, the strength of your competition, the longevity of your most important team mates, luck, the influence your club has over matters on the pitch and off etc etc.

Ask Ronaldo about the power of Florentino Perez now that Luka Modrić is the Ballon d'Or winner.

What's your issue? To begin with, there are plenty of Real Madrid squad players winning it 4 times too, why they aren't compare to Ronaldinho or Messi or whoever? Why are they not all regarded as GOAT? How about the Real Madrid in 50-60s? Why only Di Stefano and Puskas considered as GOAT, but not the other 9 squad players? They probably all won it 5 times ffs

I think you got yourself very confused here. There's night and day difference of winning the trophy as part of the squad member vs as being the best player in the world/top scorer of the tournament winning it. Ronaldo has won 5 Ballon D'or and 6 times finish top 2. Now give me another player who share similar individual achievements. Other than Messi, who is also regarded as GOAT, there is none. Totally none. Not a single player did it in the past 40 years or longer.

 

[Zlatan 7]

The voting split on this is incredible. Is it a true vote or has it been rigged because know one can agree

 

[Zehner]

What's your issue? To begin with, there are plenty of Real Madrid squad players winning it 4 times too, why they aren't compare to Ronaldinho or Messi or whoever? Why are they not all regarded as GOAT? How about the Real Madrid in 50-60s? Why only Di Stefano and Puskas considered as GOAT, but not the other 9 squad players? They probably all won it 5 times ffs

I think you got yourself very confused here. There's night and day difference of winning the trophy as part of the squad member vs as being the best player in the world/top scorer of the tournament winning it. Ronaldo has won 5 Ballon D'or and 6 times finish top 2. Now give me another player who share similar individual achievements. Other than Messi, who is also regarded as GOAT, there is none. Totally none. Not a single player did it in the past 40 years or longer.

Isn't that basically what he wanted to say? When trophies don't matter to judge the quqlity of a player why should they suddenly be given that much importance when judging the best ever?

You don't necessarily have to compare Seeforf to Cristiano or Messi, just compare him to someone that occupied a similar role in his respective team. If I'd suggest he was a better midfielder than Xavi, Iniesta or Modric because he has won more CLs and done it in different leagues you'd declare myself mental. Well, at least I hope you'd do because that would be the only reasonable reaction IMO since I believe as good as Seedorf was, he was nowhere near these three.

 

[zkap]

Ronaldo is the center of the first team to ever retain and then 3-peat the CL. Doesn’t that speak volumes?

Ronaldo is a phenomenal player who did brilliantly for Real Madrid, so I would argue his career speaks volumes. But here we are again with the difference between stats and substance. I mentioned the dominance of Pep’s Barça and you counter with the three back-to-back Champions Leagues Madrid won. In his first season I thought Zidane was lucky, but I was proven wrong very quickly as I don’t think you can be lucky three years running. Madrid’s exploits in the Champions League are unique in their own right and Ronaldo contributed to this, of course.

But don’t think for a second I would swap Pep’s 2/4 for Madrid’s 4/5. Why? For the same reason I am unhappy with Barça today: substance over stats/results. Pep’s Barça was a special team, even if I do say so as a Barça fan. That team was dominant throughout, Zidane’s Madrid wasn’t. There’s a massive difference in football there, even if you’ll focus on the part of the argument that favours Ronaldo.

Pep built a historic team, with a young Messi at its core. I cannot imagine a bigger compliment and a higher endorsement than that.

What's your issue? To begin with, there are plenty of Real Madrid squad players winning it 4 times too, why they aren't compare to Ronaldinho or Messi or whoever? Why are they not all regarded as GOAT? How about the Real Madrid in 50-60s? Why only Di Stefano and Puskas considered as GOAT, but not the other 9 squad players? They probably all won it 5 times ffs

I think you got yourself very confused here. There's night and day difference of winning the trophy as part of the squad member vs as being the best player in the world/top scorer of the tournament winning it. Ronaldo has won 5 Ballon D'or and 6 times finish top 2. Now give me another player who share similar individual achievements. Other than Messi, who is also regarded as GOAT, there is none. Totally none. Not a single player did it in the past 40 years or longer.

I don’t have an issue, mate. See Zehner’s post.

When trophies don't matter to judge the quqlity of a player why should they suddenly be given that much importance when judging the best ever?

It looked like an interesting comparison to me because Seedorf seems to be the sweet spot - he’s a well known player, world class, played for a big national team and won the biggest titles with historic clubs, and yet you’d never really place him among the best ever. But his career blows most players out of the water. So if he can’t get a standing next to Ronaldo, why is that I wonder? It’s almost as if you can’t judge players based on numbers.

 

[zkap]

Also Cal?, I’m dedicating a separate post to this - can you not say 3-peat or three-peat anymore? This applies to derivations, as well.

We know Madrid won the Champions League three times in a row. My hopes are not high here, but I thought I’d try.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Also Cal?, I’m dedicating a separate post to this - can you not say 3-peat or three-peat anymore? This applies to derivations, as well.

We know Madrid won the Champions League three times in a row. My hopes are not high here, but I thought I’d try.

A threepeater in plants vs Zombies is awesome.

Incidentally, Plants vs Zombies is also more fun than Messi vs Ronaldo.

 

[zkap]

A threepeater in plants vs Zombies is awesome.

Incidentally, Plants vs Zombies is also more fun than Messi vs Ronaldo.

I didn’t play Plants vs Zombies but I don’t doubt either claims.

 

[KirkDuyt]

By the way, has this thread ever discussed whether an all Ronaldo or all Messi 11 would win.

I think it would be an easy win for team Messi

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

By the way, has this thread ever discussed whether an all Ronaldo or all Messi 11 would win.

I think it would be an easy win for team Messi

I think I remember an All-CR7 vs All-James Milner battle simulated in Football Manager at the 2014 World Cup

 

[KirkDuyt]

I think I remember an All-CR7 vs All-James Milner battle simulated in Football Manager at the 2014 World Cup

Who won?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Who won?

If I;m remembering right Ronaldo but Milner was up at the first half or something

 

[RepardReece]

Indeed. Messi started playing when Ronaldinho was running the show, then as Ronnie started fading away Messi took over and became the star of the team ahead of players like Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o and Henry. Pep recognized Messi as the player he should build his team around, and once even said that without Messi he'd be coaching in the third division. Messi was at the centre of a team that is lauded by many as the best ever assembled, certainly one of the greatest teams of all time. Then Pep left and the players Messi supposedly couldn't score without (Xavi and Iniesta) started their decline. He adapted to this by drifting back, taking the ball and creating play, essentially becoming the best playmaker in the world and compensating for Xavi playing fewer minutes. Messi played with all sorts of different players and occupied different roles in the attack, always exceling at them. Winger, false nine, striker, attacking midfielder, playmaker. His cooperation with Suarez and Neymar was unique, and when the MSN era ended and Iniesta accelerated his decline, he took on Iniesta's role as well. Now he's a playmaker, attacking midfielder and striker for Barcelona, all at once. He begins attacks and ends them, I don't know what else he should/could do.

I'm really not sure how people can still say Ronaldo is better after reading that whole post (not just what I quoted). I'm not sure how they can believe he's better regardless. Well said, good read.

 

[Ishdalar]

Messi played as an inverted winger since his youth also in a much easier league than the EPL especially in that time period. Think. Messi is and always has been a SYSTEM based player hence the difference in performance from Barca to Argentina. Think. Ronaldo by the time he retires will have played and dominated in THREE different leagues and won a CL in all 3. Like come on.

Ronaldo also suffers a huge difference in performances from his club to Portugal, is just logical.

As for the system player and the 3 different leagues, both United, Real and Juventus has more League and UCL titles than Barcelona before Messi started playing with us, when he retires we'll have more UCL titles than Juve and United, and more leagues than United.

What is it now, is better to finally be the player that turns a perennial contender into an European powerhouse, or the player that has reached success with 3 already successful teams?. It's absurd, no one tops the other.

 

[Schneckerl]

Ronaldo winning 3 different leagues being a big deal is cleverly pushed by his marketing team.
Can't outperform Messi in Spain, so they are making up fake achievments nobody used to care about previously and try to sell a storyline.

 

[mariachi-19]

Ronaldo winning 3 different leagues being a big deal is cleverly pushed by his marketing team.
Can't outperform Messi in Spain, so they are making up fake achievments nobody used to care about previously and try to sell a storyline.

Except he did... for 4 out of the 9 seasons he was was there. Let’s not forget Messi was also in one for the best teams of all time when Ronaldo jumped across the pond so he’s effectively already staring behind the pack in terms of settling in and Real Madrid rebuilding.

So take away his first season at Madrid and 4 all, Messi wins on league titles and Ronaldo leads 4-2 on champions leagues

 

[RedRonaldo]

Isn't that basically what he wanted to say? When trophies don't matter to judge the quqlity of a player why should they suddenly be given that much importance when judging the best ever?

You don't necessarily have to compare Seeforf to Cristiano or Messi, just compare him to someone that occupied a similar role in his respective team. If I'd suggest he was a better midfielder than Xavi, Iniesta or Modric because he has won more CLs and done it in different leagues you'd declare myself mental. Well, at least I hope you'd do because that would be the only reasonable reaction IMO since I believe as good as Seedorf was, he was nowhere near these three.

I don’t have an issue, mate. See Zehner’s post.

It looked like an interesting comparison to me because Seedorf seems to be the sweet spot - he’s a well known player, world class, played for a big national team and won the biggest titles with historic clubs, and yet you’d never really place him among the best ever. But his career blows most players out of the water. So if he can’t get a standing next to Ronaldo, why is that I wonder? It’s almost as if you can’t judge players based on numbers.

No you both miss the point. Ronaldo has been by far the top scorer and most impactful player in winning those trophies, that's what it matter. I am not talking about the numbers only, and I am not talking about being part of squad winning the trophies (ie Seedorf). I am talking about have the largest impact of the tournament in winning it (score majority of winning goals & being best/most impactful player in the tournament, the player who makes the biggest difference), its fecking night and day difference. Maradona winning 86 WC isn't equal to his teammates winning it, can you not see it at all. On the other hand, If Maradona didn't win the 86 WC despite his performance, his legacy wouldn't be same, and he wouldn't be mentioned alongside with Pele too. You can't judge it separately, you have to take into account of everything.

 

[MrEleson]

Yeah, it's worth noting that each time Real Madrid won the Champions league, he has been top scorer and with numbers only he has equalled or surpassed. When they won it in 2014 he recorded the most goals in a single CL campaign ever with 17. Then when they won it in 2016 he scored 16 goals (only person to equal or surpass that tally is himself); when they won it in 2017 he scored 10 goals in the KO (a record) and again when they won in it 2018 he scored 15 goals. No one in the history of the Champions League has ever scored more than 14 goals in a single campaign and then Ronaldo went and did it 3 times en-route to winning the tournament each time. In actuality, he has finished top-scorer in the CL 7 seasons in a row while scoring over 10 goals each time. No single player has ever scored 10+ goals more than 3 times in their career in that competition and he did it 7 times and won 4 CLs along the way. You can't compare his impact in that competition (which is nothing short revolutionary) to Seedorf's impact for his team's successes at all.

 

[Zehner]

No you both miss the point. Ronaldo has been by far the top scorer and most impactful player in winning those trophies, that's what it matter. I am not talking about the numbers only, and I am not talking about being part of squad winning the trophies (ie Seedorf). I am talking about have the largest impact of the tournament in winning it (score majority of winning goals & being best/most impactful player in the tournament, the player who makes the biggest difference), its fecking night and day difference. Maradona winning 86 WC isn't equal to his teammates winning it, can you not see it at all. On the other hand, If Maradona didn't win the 86 WC despite his performance, his legacy wouldn't be same, and he wouldn't be mentioned alongside with Pele too. You can't judge it separately, you have to take into account of everything.

What about the Xavi part?

 

[RedRonaldo]

What about the Xavi part?

Easy. Individually speaking, Xavi finished 3rd in Ballon D'or 3 times in his career, this tells us he was among the top 3 players in the world 3 times during this era. His best 5 season is, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, which suggest he has always been regarded as one of the best players in the world during his peak.

In terms of overall achievement, not only he won CL 4 times, he also won league 8 times, Euro twice, and WC once, as one of the key players, best performers, most influential player in the squad (otherwise he won't finish top 3-5 in Ballon D'or 5 times).

So what do we have for Seedorf?

Never been regard as top 10 player in the world, not even once, let alone top 3-5.

His best individual season, he was voted top 17 in 1997, his 2nd best season, he was voted top 19 in the world in 2007. For majority of his career, he wasn't even among top 20-30 players.

So, a player who wasn't among top 20-30 player during majority of his career, but he was part of the team who has won CL 5 times, and was part of team who won the top league 3 times. What does that tell you? he simply was a squad member, playing as part of a great squad, winning alot of titles. Same things applies to every squad members in Real Madrid and Barca too.

Can everyone of them compared to Xavi? Of course not! Use your common sense.

 

[Ishdalar]

Yeah, it's worth noting that each time Real Madrid won the Champions league, he has been top scorer and with numbers only he has equalled or surpassed. When they won it in 2014 he recorded the most goals in a single CL campaign ever with 17. Then when they won it in 2016 he scored 16 goals (only person to equal or surpass that tally is himself); when they won it in 2017 he scored 10 goals in the KO (a record) and again when they won in it 2018 he scored 15 goals. No one in the history of the Champions League has ever scored more than 14 goals in a single campaign and then Ronaldo went and did it 3 times en-route to winning the tournament each time. In actuality, he has finished top-scorer in the CL 7 seasons in a row while scoring over 10 goals each time. No single player has ever scored 10+ goals more than 3 times in their career in that competition and he did it 7 times and won 4 CLs along the way. You can't compare his impact in that competition (which is nothing short revolutionary) to Seedorf's impact for his team's successes at all.

You also won't see the impact Baresi had on the competition just because his name didn't show up in the scoring sheet. Doesn't mean players that don't score aren't as crucial as goalscorers for their teams.

Ronaldo has scored more goals and won more titles as he became less involved in his team's play. This isn't an attack on his performance, is just to illustrate how important a bunch of other fooball reasons are to win those trophies, Real Madrid were a well oiled machine, focused 100% on one title and with a squad built to play the style that better suited one of the better goal scorers of all time. That's what some of us think, doesn't matter that he got to 15 goals past season, his displays from 2009 to 2012 for example where way better, numbers can reflect his importance, but never the magnitude of talent he had as a player.

How many goals could he have this season in the UCL if he played for Real, 4 or 6 goals instead of 1? Would that make him a better player or more influential on the pitch than what he's doing for Juve?. What would be Ronaldo's numbers if he played for Barcelona in this era? And if he joined with Messi, one assisted and the other scored, who'd be better? What if Eto'o didn't have bricks for feets and used his head for anything else than thinking, for example being good at heading, could he reach Ronaldo's numbers while, still, being an inferior overall player?.

It's just all so hypothetical if you reduce it to numbers and just a single aspect of the game, almost useless to debate that way, there's always one stat the other side can throw at the other to one-up in the discussion.

 

[Ishdalar]

Easy. Individually speaking, Xavi finished 3rd in Ballon D'or 3 times in his career, this tells us he was among the top 3 players in the world 3 times during this era. His best 5 season is, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, which suggest he has always been regarded as one of the best players in the world during his peak.

In terms of overall achievement, not only he won CL 4 times, he also won league 8 times, Euro twice, and WC once, as one of the key players, best performers, most influential player in the squad (otherwise he won't finish top 3-5 in Ballon D'or 5 times).

So what do we have for Seedorf?

Never been regard as top 10 player in the world, not even once, let alone top 3-5.

His best individual season, he was voted top 17 in 1997, his 2nd best season, he was voted top 19 in the world in 2007. For majority of his career, he wasn't even among top 20-30 players.

So, a player who wasn't among top 20-30 player during majority of his career, but he was part of the team who has won CL 5 times, and was part of team who won the top league 3 times. What does that tell you? he simply was a squad member, playing as part of a great squad, winning alot of titles. Same things applies to every squad members in Real Madrid and Barca too.

Can everyone of them compared to Xavi? Of course not! Use your common sense.

This paragraph alone is why individual awards are stupid to compare players, and especially with midfielders. Bolded parts basically sum up Modric's career up to 2017 where he finally broke into the top 15 of the Ballon d'Or, his measure as a player totally depended on what his teams did in 2017-2018 and now he'll go down as one of the best midfielders ever, just because Croatia and Real Madrid achieved success.

Croatia misses two pens vs Denmark and there's nothing Modric can do about it, he's not top 15 anymore because he even missed a crucial penalty on the R16 of the WC, Ronaldo doesn't score vs Bayern in 2017, Real have a mediocre season and he, again, wouldn't scrap a top 15. Then, some guy in 2039 would be here saying that Modric wasn't that great because he never was considered top 10 of the world. Players are 100% dependent on teammates for individual awards, is that logical?.

 

[redchamp]

You also won't see the impact Baresi had on the competition just because his name didn't show up in the scoring sheet. Doesn't mean players that don't score aren't as crucial as goalscorers for their teams.

Ronaldo has scored more goals and won more titles as he became less involved in his team's play. This isn't an attack on his performance, is just to illustrate how important a bunch of other fooball reasons are to win those trophies, Real Madrid were a well oiled machine, focused 100% on one title and with a squad built to play the style that better suited one of the better goal scorers of all time. That's what some of us think, doesn't matter that he got to 15 goals past season, his displays from 2009 to 2012 for example where way better, numbers can reflect his importance, but never the magnitude of talent he had as a player.

How many goals could he have this season in the UCL if he played for Real, 4 or 6 goals instead of 1? Would that make him a better player or more influential on the pitch than what he's doing for Juve?. What would be Ronaldo's numbers if he played for Barcelona in this era? And if he joined with Messi, one assisted and the other scored, who'd be better? What if Eto'o didn't have bricks for feets and used his head for anything else than thinking, for example being good at heading, could he reach Ronaldo's numbers while, still, being an inferior overall player?.

It's just all so hypothetical if you reduce it to numbers and just a single aspect of the game, almost useless to debate that way, there's always one stat the other side can throw at the other to one-up in the discussion.

It's incredible how people try to downplay the importance of goals as just a number. It is LITERALLY the aim of the game. There can be no more direct impact.

 

[RedRonaldo]

This paragraph alone is why individual awards are stupid to compare players, and especially with midfielders. Bolded parts basically sum up Modric's career up to 2017 where he finally broke into the top 15 of the Ballon d'Or, his measure as a player totally depended on what his teams did in 2017-2018 and now he'll go down as one of the best midfielders ever, just because Croatia and Real Madrid achieved success.

Croatia misses two pens vs Denmark and there's nothing Modric can do about it, he's not top 15 anymore because he even missed a crucial penalty on the R16 of the WC, Ronaldo doesn't score vs Bayern in 2017, Real have a mediocre season and he, again, wouldn't scrap a top 15. Then, some guy in 2039 would be here saying that Modric wasn't that great because he never was considered top 10 of the world. Players are 100% dependent on teammates for individual awards, is that logical?.

Well actually the awards more or less reflects of reality of him. Modric was top 5 the year before, and won it last year. His best years ranked 1st, 5th and 17th. He has always been a top midfielder, but is he consistently one of the best player in the world over past decade? I don't think so. In fact, is he as good as any of the past winners in past 20 years? Probably not among the best. But we have seen good players winning it (Owen, Cannavaro) , or among top 3 (Beckham, Deco, Lampard, Gerrard etc) once in a while, due to their yearly based performances/achievements, so Modric belongs to that category. He won it because he was the best player in WC 2018, he sort of earned it himself last year.

 

[Ishdalar]

It's incredible how people try to downplay the importance of goals as just a number. It is LITERALLY the aim of the game. There can be no more direct impact.

Like saying the guy that puts the door in your house and hands you the keys is as important as the architect, the aim of the game is to OUTSCORE your rival, be it by aiming to concede fewer goals, or just plainly outscore anyone, still, it's a 11 person job, a striker alone counts for nothing with an awful midfield.

Well actually the awards more or less reflects of reality of him. Modric was top 5 the year before, and won it last year. His best years ranked 1st, 5th and 17th. He has always been a top midfielder, but is he consistently one of the best player in the world over past decade? I don't think so. In fact, is he as good as any of the past winners in past 20 years? Probably not among the best. But we have seen good players winning it (Owen, Cannavaro) , or among top 3 (Beckham, Deco, Lampard, Gerrard etc) once in a while, due to their yearly based performances/achievements, so Modric belongs to that category. He won it because he was the best player in WC 2018, he sort of earned it himself last year.

If you rate him only via individual awards that's the story, Ronaldo failed to reach a single UCL final with Real Madrid in the 3 seasons he played without Modric, and has reached 4 finals in the 6 years he played with Luka. They also missed their only UCL final of the last 5 seasons coincidentally in the leg Modric couldn't play.

So, it's all just a big, silly coincidence, or has Modric been overlooked for years until the press started looking at him?. You can even see that in Iniesta, not a single nomination until 2009, not even in 2008 when he was a key part of our NT and featured in the team of the tournament, then he gets 4th in 2009 (goal vs Chelsea giving him notoriety), 2nd in 2010 (maybe his worse season as a professional player, plagued by injuries, starting 20 games and having psychologic issues) for a goal in a final, 4th and 3rd in the following seasons, when he was way better than in 2010.

Modric has been Real Madrid's engine, Ronaldo pushed them from laughing stock to yearly contenders, Modric gave them that extra little edge that put them where they are now, and if it wasn't for what I mentioned before in 17' and 18', Modric could've been the best midfielder of the last decade (frankly, who's been beter in the 2010 decade?) and have 0 top 10 appearances in the Ballon d'Or to show for it.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Like saying the guy that puts the door in your house and hands you the keys is as important as the architect, the aim of the game is to OUTSCORE your rival, be it by aiming to concede fewer goals, or just plainly outscore anyone, still, it's a 11 person job, a striker alone counts for nothing with an awful midfield.



If you rate him only via individual awards that's the story, Ronaldo failed to reach a single UCL final with Real Madrid in the 3 seasons he played without Modric, and has reached 4 finals in the 6 years he played with Luka. They also missed their only UCL final of the last 5 seasons coincidentally in the leg Modric couldn't play.

So, it's all just a big, silly coincidence, or has Modric been overlooked for years until the press started looking at him?. You can even see that in Iniesta, not a single nomination until 2009, not even in 2008 when he was a key part of our NT and featured in the team of the tournament, then he gets 4th in 2009 (goal vs Chelsea giving him notoriety), 2nd in 2010 (maybe his worse season as a professional player, plagued by injuries, starting 20 games and having psychologic issues) for a goal in a final, 4th and 3rd in the following seasons, when he was way better than in 2010.

Modric has been Real Madrid's engine, Ronaldo pushed them from laughing stock to yearly contenders, Modric gave them that extra little edge that put them where they are now, and if it wasn't for what I mentioned before in 17' and 18', Modric could've been the best midfielder of the last decade (frankly, who's been beter in the 2010 decade?) and have 0 top 10 appearances in the Ballon d'Or to show for it.

I don't agree with your view on Modric, yes he is a good midfielder, but no he isn't consistently best player in the world material. In fact, I've watched a lot of Real Madrid matches over the years, Modric isn't top 3 or 4 performers in most of matches I've watched over the years (Ronaldo, Marcelo, Ramos, Bale, and sometimes Kroos and Isco are better). In fact, I'd argue he isn't among top 3 or 4 performers for Real last season. If you really think he is the best over the years, fine, but not many people share similar view as yours.

My verdict on Modric: probably one of the top 5-10 midfielders in the world in the 2010's era, definitely a tier below Xavi and Iniesta. Best player in 2018 WC, and perhaps he is among top 3 midfielder in the world in past 2-3 years.

 

[keezw]

You surely haven't watched many of our games if you believe Bale or Kroos or Isco have performed better than Modric on a weekly basis. He's been our most consistent player over the years (2013-17) and by far our best performer in big games, and main weapon in the final stages of the CL when the other stars were making their best hide and seek impression.

Dominated Bayern home and away in 2014, also our best player in the final.
Class against City and Atletico in 2016
Masterclass against Atletico and Juve in 2017
Kept his own against Bayern in 2018 while playing as a makeshift RB in order to cover for Vasquez (Carvajal was not available). Again our best player in the final against Pool.

 

[Zehner]

I don't agree with your view on Modric, yes he is a good midfielder, but no he isn't consistently best player in the world material. In fact, I've watched a lot of Real Madrid matches over the years, Modric isn't top 3 or 4 performers in most of matches I've watched over the years (Ronaldo, Marcelo, Ramos, Bale, and sometimes Kroos and Isco are better). In fact, I'd argue he isn't among top 3 or 4 performers for Real last season. If you really think he is the best over the years, fine, but not many people share similar view as yours.

My verdict on Modric: probably one of the top 5-10 midfielders in the world in the 2010's era, definitely a tier below Xavi and Iniesta. Best player in 2018 WC, and perhaps he is among top 3 midfielder in the world in past 2-3 years.

We just have a completely different view of football then. Always had a very high opinion of Modric. I remember how Klopp called him one of Europeans biggest prospects when he was a TV expert during I think EC 2008. But in the last 5 years he was very close to prime-Iniesta IMO, for me easily the third best midfielder of this generation.
I guess we simply value completely different aspects of a footballer, especiqlly in midfield.

 

[keezw]

We just have a completely different view of football then. Always had a very high opinion of Modric. I remember how Klopp called him one of Europeans biggest prospects when he was a TV expert during I think EC 2008. But in the last 5 years he was very close to prime-Iniesta IMO, for me easily the third best midfielder of this generation.
I guess we simply value completely different aspects of a footballer, especiqlly in midfield.

Similar players Modric and Iniesta, yet so different. Peak Modric is an all-action midfielder, probably the most complete of recent memory. Could play like Kante for a moment, and then the next he will be beating players like Iniesta or spraying balls ala Xavi. Not a specialist but an all-rounder. Iniesta in his prime for all his talents was also an utility man but not to the level of Modric, who is a box-to-box through and through. Iniesta is superior in the final third

 

[RedRonaldo]

We just have a completely different view of football then. Always had a very high opinion of Modric. I remember how Klopp called him one of Europeans biggest prospects when he was a TV expert during I think EC 2008. But in the last 5 years he was very close to prime-Iniesta IMO, for me easily the third best midfielder of this generation.
I guess we simply value completely different aspects of a footballer, especiqlly in midfield.

Similar players Modric and Iniesta, yet so different. Peak Modric is an all-action midfielder, probably the most complete of recent memory. Could play like Kante for a moment, and then the next he will be beating players like Iniesta or spraying balls ala Xavi. Not a specialist but an all-rounder. Iniesta in his prime for all his talents was also an utility man but not to the level of Modric, who is a box-to-box through and through. Iniesta is superior in the final third

Yeh that could be the reason. I value specialist (best in the world in something) over the jack of all trade type players (good in everything but not best in anything). Hence I value Xavi (passing master, control tempo in great manner), Iniesta (great attacking type, talented) more, and to some extent, even at present day, I value Pogba (the most talented midfielder in the world, can score and assist) and De Bruyne (weight of his pass is best I've ever seen, best assist, most efficient) more.

 

[RedRonaldo]

You surely haven't watched many of our games if you believe Bale or Kroos or Isco have performed better than Modric on a weekly basis. He's been our most consistent player over the years (2013-17) and by far our best performer in big games, and main weapon in the final stages of the CL when the other stars were making their best hide and seek impression.

Dominated Bayern home and away in 2014, also our best player in the final.
Class against City and Atletico in 2016
Masterclass against Atletico and Juve in 2017
Kept his own against Bayern in 2018 while playing as a makeshift RB in order to cover for Vasquez (Carvajal was not available). Again our best player in the final against Pool.

He does have some good games over the years, but in many games I've watched, there are other players outshined him in the matches too. I know its all matter of opinions, but if we take reference from other neutral source like "whoscored", their average rating in La Liga in past 3 years is like:

Modric
15-16:7.37 (32 games)
16-17: 7.23 (25 games)
17-18: 7.29 (26 games)

Kroos
15-16: 7.33 (32 games)
16-17: 7.67 (29 games)
17-18: 7.47 (27 games)

Bale
15-16: 8.12 (23 games)
16-17: 7.49 (19 games)
17-18: 7.49 (26 games)

Ronaldo
15-16: 7.99 (36 games)
16-17: 7.61 (29 games)
17-18: 7.94 (27 games)

*note I didn't even count 18-19 when Modric level drop alot.

So he wasn't top 3 performers in Real Madrid in past 3 years according to "whoscored" either. (I know we can't take whoscored seriously, but that's just another reference)

 

[Peyroteo]

How many times in the past 5 Champions Leagues have Real Madrid started controlling the midfield after a timely goal that completely changed the momentum of the game? How many times was their midfield getting ripped to shreds before something happened that completely turned it around?

Ramos and Ronaldo were the two stars of that Madrid team, both for their importance in playing style and importance in confidence and mentality. They’re cnuts though, so it’s Marcelo’s and Modric’s job as the technical and loveable characters to barely get any criticism for their failures.

Modric gets credit for dominating the game, but he’s never done that alone. Kroos and Casemiro are both key in that control they had in big moments. If Ronaldo got credit for the goals he scored plus the goals Benzema and Bale scored that wouldn’t really go down well, would it? So how come Modric gets all the credit for things which he only was a small part of?

Saying that Ronaldo started winning Champions Leagues with Madrid because Modric came into the team is such an incredibly stupid argument it’s unbelievable. In 2010-11 they got knocked out by the best team ever, never got to face anyone like that with Modric, in 2011-12 they got knocked out by Bayern on penalties (won on penalties in 2015/16 though, obviously because of Modric’s presence), and were 1 goal away from beating Dortmund in 2012-13. Extremely small margins, sometimes luck was with them, sometimes it wasn’t. It all evens out after so much time though.

Having the arrogance and ignorance to ignore all the different factors that changed in that time to say Madrid’s recent CL success is because Modric came in is a disgrace of an opinion. They were much better in 2010-11 and 2011-12 than in 2015-16 or 2017-18 for example.

 

[RooneyLegend]

They aren't a level above the other stars in the world anymore.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

They aren't a level above the other stars in the world anymore.

I don't know about Ronaldo, but I still see Messi as clearly the best.

Though his CL disappointments recently are certainly hard to ignore.

I don't know why he insists on coming so far central and breaking the structure in important CL games.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I don't know about Ronaldo, but I still see Messi as clearly the best.

Though his CL disappointments recently are certainly hard to ignore.

I don't know why he insists on coming so far central and breaking the structure in important CL games.

I disagree, he's still great in tight situations when Barca have the game under control but force them back a bit and his threat on the break isnt much. In a time when clubs don't fear the Barca play as much so in big games he isn't sparkling. He really has lost a yard of acceleration and it shows.

 

[Infordin]

Suarez is a huge liability that will kill any chance Barca have at the CL this year. The blame will fall on Messi’s shoulders but those who watch Barca can see just how bad Suarez has become.

 

[RedRonaldo]

They aren't a level above the other stars in the world anymore.

The gap is getting smaller, but they are still the best. Both Messi and Ronaldo is still both the top scorer and top assist in their respective league.
They are 32/34 years old afterall. You can't expect the gap to be remained so huge.

 

[keezw]

How many times in the past 5 Champions Leagues have Real Madrid started controlling the midfield after a timely goal that completely changed the momentum of the game? How many times was their midfield getting ripped to shreds before something happened that completely turned it around?

Ramos and Ronaldo were the two stars of that Madrid team, both for their importance in playing style and importance in confidence and mentality. They’re cnuts though, so it’s Marcelo’s and Modric’s job as the technical and loveable characters to barely get any criticism for their failures.

Modric gets credit for dominating the game, but he’s never done that alone. Kroos and Casemiro are both key in that control they had in big moments. If Ronaldo got credit for the goals he scored plus the goals Benzema and Bale scored that wouldn’t really go down well, would it? So how come Modric gets all the credit for things which he only was a small part of?

Saying that Ronaldo started winning Champions Leagues with Madrid because Modric came into the team is such an incredibly stupid argument it’s unbelievable. In 2010-11 they got knocked out by the best team ever, never got to face anyone like that with Modric, in 2011-12 they got knocked out by Bayern on penalties (won on penalties in 2015/16 though, obviously because of Modric’s presence), and were 1 goal away from beating Dortmund in 2012-13. Extremely small margins, sometimes luck was with them, sometimes it wasn’t. It all evens out after so much time though.

Having the arrogance and ignorance to ignore all the different factors that changed in that time to say Madrid’s recent CL success is because Modric came in is a disgrace of an opinion. They were much better in 2010-11 and 2011-12 than in 2015-16 or 2017-18 for example.

We did actually, Pep's Bayern had been hyped as hell by the time we played them in 2014, best thing since sliced bread. And no, we weren't better in 10-11. Before Modric became a starter in 13/14 we hadn't had any memorable performance against a top team. After he had got accommodated we had plenty and we didn't get screwed anymore as in 12/13 against Dortmund where they were all over us.

It is a disgrace because it doesn't fit your agenda. CR was 20 CL goals behind Messi before Modric came.

In 12/13 he was a bench player, didn't play and we went trophyless
In 13/14 starter, won CL and CDR (CR non existent in the final)
In 14/15 injured, we went trophyless
In 15/16 starter, we won the CL (CR nonexistent in SF and final)
In 16/17 starter, we won the CL
In 17/18 starter, we won the CL (CR nonexistent in SF and final)

To this day I'm still waiting for us to win the main trophy with Modric as bad as CR in some of the final stages of the competition as he was against Atletico, or City, or Atletico again in 2016, or Bayern and Pool. We've never won the CL with Modric not being at the top of his game in the final stages while CR went missing in most of them.

 

[Rito]

We did actually, Pep's Bayern had been hyped as hell by the time we played them in 2014, best thing since sliced bread. And no, we weren't better in 10-11. Before Modric became a starter in 13/14 we hadn't had any memorable performance against a top team. After he had got accommodated we had plenty and we didn't get screwed anymore as in 12/13 against Dortmund where they were all over us.

It is a disgrace because it doesn't fit your agenda. CR was 20 CL goals behind Messi before Modric came.

In 12/13 he was a bench player, didn't play and we went trophyless
In 13/14 starter, won CL and CDR (CR non existent in the final)
In 14/15 injured, we went trophyless
In 15/16 starter, we won the CL (CR nonexistent in SF and final)
In 16/17 starter, we won the CL
In 17/18 starter, we won the CL (CR nonexistent in SF and final)

To this day I'm still waiting for us to win the main trophy with Modric as bad as CR in some of the final stages of the competition as he was against Atletico, or City, or Atletico again in 2016, or Bayern and Pool. We've never won the CL with Modric not being at the top of his game in the final stages while CR went missing in most of them.

That was chiefly because he had a "16 off 55" record at United and he was playing the catching up game. It's not because Modric came and magically turned him into a monster of a goal scorer all of a sudden. There is absolutely no way that Modric was more influential than CR7 in the UCL triumphs. You talk about the finals, tell me how exactly RM reached the finals in the first place? Shall we talk about the QFs and the SFs where CR7 literally scored a truck load of goals to help RM advance to the Finals?

Also,

2018 UCL final MoM - Bale
2017 UCL final MoM - CR7
2016 UCL final MoM - Ramos
2014 UCL final MoM - ADM (UEFA choice), Ramos (Fan's choice)

So where exactly is this mythical, legendary performances of Modric in the CL finals that you are trying to push to fit your very own agenda?