The Independent Group for Change | Have decided to disband after ten months

[Mozza]

90% of the vitriol aimed at her is because she was in labour friends of Israel... It's like that's not allowed in labour anymore
Though in fairness Corbyn has not even spoken to Berger since 2017 despite the racist abuse and threats she was getting...
Honestly the party are making themselves unelectable and actually untill they get rid of comrade jezbollah that's probably just as well

Be a fine thing if being a friend of Israel was no longer an acceptable thing in the Labour party

 

[Mozza]

Joan Ryan claims there was no antisemitism in the Labour Party until 2015

 

[Ubik]

Kicking out everyone in Labour Friends of Israel would include Barry Gardiner, Nick Brown (shadow chief whip), Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson. And David Lammy, although he's not in the shadow cabinet.

Would end well.

 

[Cheesy]

Interesting that they would gain that many (or even any) on that kind of model, as you'd think the vote would be spread evenly having come from nothing. Wonder where the vote was most focussed.

To be fair, I think that model is largely outdated in that it came when there was a feeling the party as a whole might split, with the vast majority of centrists forming a new party. In such a case you'd have had a lot more incumbent MP's defending their seats as opposed to a new party taking them - that'd inevitably give any split faction a much better chance. Although suppose more could come.

 

[Mozza]

Kicking out everyone in Labour Friends of Israel would include Barry Gardiner, Nick Brown (shadow chief whip), Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson. And David Lammy, although he's not in the shadow cabinet.

Would end well.

It would. How could any anti-racist be a friend of Israel?

 

[sun_tzu]

Be a fine thing if being a friend of Israel was no longer an acceptable thing in the Labour party

LFI supports a two-state solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, with Israel recognised and secure within its borders, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.[1]As of August 2018 it includes about 80 Labour MPs.

Why do you want to loose another 75mps
Presumably because either you don't support a 2 state solution or you don't think people there should be safe from attack?

Personally I think it's good that we have lfi and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Friends_of_Palestine_&_the_Middle_East
It promotes healthy debate and both support a 2 state solution... Why do you only want to get rid of one?

 

[sun_tzu]

It would. How could any anti-racist be a friend of Israel?

Kick them out and call the party jezbollah ?

And how is supporting a 2 party solution and wanting the people in both of those states to be free from attack racist exactly

 

[Buster15]

Don't know how I feel about him returning to politics, whether it is likely or not.

I have a friend who swears he never would have been to Uni if it wasn't for New Labour policies, given his background. It's hard to say with any certainty but he's not the only person I've met who feels this way and is grateful for it. Labour certainly did good things in education and with Sure Start. I love the fact they had a policy of ending child poverty. Unachievable and grossly optimistic at best but it came from a good place.

I think his tainted image has more to it than Iraq but that is the main thing for a lot of people and it should be.

Anyway, without either a proper big hitter politically to lead them, or the silver bullet of party policies, I think the Indies are doomed. They should also resign, force a bye election and run as an independent if they really believe they have the backing of their constituents. But of course they won't, they might lose their seat on the Westminster Gravy Train. It's this kind of self serving, zero integrity shithousery which leads to people viewing our politicians with contempt.

Very good summary and I agree with all your comments.
As you say Tony Blair Labour did achieve a great deal.
One good example was the A and E waiting time metrics which as anyone who has attended AE will have known that they were routinely met under Labour but now are depressingly bad.

 

[Kaos]

Tweet and then delete shit like this probably then I dunno presumably blame the Jews?

What exactly is anti Semitic about that tweet? Unless you equate solidarity for Palestine with anti-semitism?

 

[sun_tzu]

What exactly is anti Semitic about that tweet? Unless you equate solidarity for Palestine with anti-semitism?

Equating friends of Israel as being anti Palestinian when they support a peaceful 2 party solution?
Simply because they have irsael / Jewish connections they must be bad...
See people in this thread saying any friends of Israel should not be welcome in the labour party
Young labour know this that's why they deleted it
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...on-from-party-amid-historic-a4071216.html?amp

Equally an MP leaves citing institutional antisemitism as being behind her thinking (let's also rember this is only a day after Berger quit after suffering lots of antisemitic abuse and threats and the leader not even speaking to her for a year)... In that atmosphere the responce from the official young labour account is to post about Palestine .. FFS it just shows how deep routed this blind hatred is within the party... The party is rotting from the head down

 

[villain]

Why is it antisemitic to be sympathetic to Palestine all of a sudden?

I would also like to know the answer to this.
I've never understood it and i'm admittedly ignorant on the nuances of the conflict in the region.

 

[rcoobc]

Brexit splits Labour party in two?

No, is Israel

 

[EwanI Ted]

I would also like to know the answer to this.
I've never understood it and i'm admittedly ignorant on the nuances of the conflict in the region.

Sympathy for Palastine isn't the problem. Its the assumption that if you support Jewish people in general, or support the existence of the state of Israel in particular, you therefore must support the grotesque crimes that the Israeli Government and/or army have perpetrated. That's what this tweet implied.

 

[Adisa]

I'm also not a fan of the Labour Friends of Israel. Imagine the press reaction if there was a friends of Palestine group? However it's their right and as long as they're committed to a two state solution which doesn't feck the Palestinians, I'm cool.
Trying to banish the LFI is the last thing Labour needs and will destroy the party.
It's quite sad how any anti Isreal opinion has been converted to anti-semitism. It has poisoned debate. But let's not pretend Labour doesn't have an anti Semitic problem.
Corbyn is like a man carrying a turd all arouda while trying to swat away flies .

 

[Adisa]

The interview with Young Labour leader was a disaster.

 

[2cents]

Imagine the press reaction if there was a friends of Palestine group?

It seems there is one.

 

[EwanI Ted]

I'm also not a fan of the Labour Friends of Israel. Imagine the press reaction if there was a friends of Palestine group? However it's their right and as long as they're committed to a two state solution which doesn't feck the Palestinians, I'm cool.
Trying to banish the LFI is the last thing Labour needs and will destroy the party.
It's quite sad how any anti Isreal opinion has been converted to anti-semitism. It has poisoned debate. But let's not pretend Labour doesn't have an anti Semitic problem.
Corbyn is like a man carrying a turd all arouda while trying to swat away flies .

There is one, Corbyn and McDonnel are both named supporters, as are half the party.

 

[Kaos]

Equating friends of Israel as being anti Palestinian when they support a peaceful 2 party solution?
Simply because they have irsael / Jewish connections they must be bad...
See people in this thread saying any friends of Israel should not be welcome in the labour party
Young labour know this that's why they deleted it
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...on-from-party-amid-historic-a4071216.html?amp

Equally an MP leaves citing institutional antisemitism as being behind her thinking (let's also rember this is only a day after Berger quit after suffering lots of antisemitic abuse and threats and the leader not even speaking to her for a year)... In that atmosphere the responce from the official young labour account is to post about Palestine .. FFS it just shows how deep routed this blind hatred is within the party... The party is rotting from the head down

The Labour Friends of Israel is still a lobby group on behalf of the Israeli state. A country that’s objectively breaking international law and occupying territory. So by chairing such a group suggests you take a partial stance to the conflict and see little objection to their occupation and oppression of the Palestinian peoples. The fact they support a two state solution means very little. Feckin Netanyahu supports a two state solution but if you look at the proposed borders then youd see exactly how reasonable the whole proposal is.

Anyway that aside I’m still not seeing the anti-Semitic connotations. Was it a clumsy and unnecessary tweet? Absolutely. But to simply equate it with anti-semitism is a obtuse at best. If a wing of the Labour Party had tweeted ‘Solidarity with Israel’ upon someone like George Galloway leaving the party, would you have labelled it islamophobic?

 

[Kaos]

There is one, Corbyn and McDonnel are both named supporters, as are half the party.

And Joan Ryan herself called it disgraceful and insisted Corbyn cut his links with them, all while she chairs the Israeli equivalent. The absolute nerve.

 

[sun_tzu]

The Labour Friends of Israel is still a lobby group on behalf of the Israeli state. A country that’s objectively breaking international law and occupying territory. So by chairing such a group suggests you take a partial stance to the conflict and see little objection to their occupation and oppression of the Palestinian peoples. The fact they support a two state solution means very little. Feckin Netanyahu supports a two state solution but if you look at the proposed borders then youd see exactly how reasonable the whole proposal is.

Anyway that aside I’m still not seeing the anti-Semitic connotations. Was it a clumsy and unnecessary tweet? Absolutely. But to simply equate it with anti-semitism is a obtuse at best. If a wing of the Labour Party had tweeted ‘Solidarity with Israel’ upon someone like George Galloway leaving the party, would you have labelled it islamophobic?

if the party was in the grips of an islamaphopic crisis it would certainly point towards a complete lack of understanding and an yes if people though that was an appropriate responce to galloway leaving the oarty I think you would genuinley question what the hell the party was doing tweeting that from an official account and see it as further evidence (and there is a lot) of the lack of willingness to tackle and change some antisemitic elements within the party
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552

 

[villain]

Sympathy for Palastine isn't the problem. Its the assumption that if you support Jewish people in general, or support the existence of the state of Israel in particular, you therefore must support the grotesque crimes that the Israeli Government and/or army have perpetrated. That's what this tweet implied.

Understood. How can you criticise the Israeli Government without criticising the state of Israel? Are the two not connected?

 

[2cents]

by chairing such a group suggests you take a partial stance to the conflict and see little objection to their occupation and oppression of the Palestinian peoples.

Partial stance sure. But would chairing the Friends of Palestine group suggest you see little objection to Palestinian terrorism?

 

[Adisa]

Understood. How can you criticise the Israeli Government without criticising the state of Israel? Are the two not connected?

I don't even think they are. It's possible not to have a problem with the concept of the state of Israel but have issue with its policies.

 

[Kaos]

Partial stance sure. But would chairing the Friends of Palestine group suggest you see little objection to Palestinian terrorism?

Of course it wouldn’t. The other angle you have to considers is how the sentiment amongst the political establishment in this country heavily weighs in Israel’s favour to the extent that affiliating yourself with the Palestine solidarity group can be seen as a genuine counterbalance.

But we digress. My point is that throwing anti-Semitic accusations at tweets like that is cheap at best.

 

[Kaos]

if the party was in the grips of an islamaphopic crisis it would certainly point towards a complete lack of understanding and an yes if people though that was an appropriate responce to galloway leaving the oarty I think you would genuinley question what the hell the party was doing tweeting that from an official account and see it as further evidence (and there is a lot) of the lack of willingness to tackle and change some antisemitic elements within the party
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552

What if I were the Tory party (a party with a genuine Islamophobic problem) that made a similar tweet in the reverse scenario? Would you make the bigotry accusations then?

 

[sun_tzu]

I don't even think they are. It's possible not to have a problem with the concept of the state of Israel but have issue with its policies.

agree 100% - just like you can be in favor of Palestine without supporting attacks undertaken in the name of Palestine by extremists ... I have no problem withe the labour palestinian group - being a member does not defacto mean people support terrorism.

 

[2cents]

Of course it wouldn’t.

So why would chairing the Friends of Israel group suggest you “see little objection to their occupation and oppression of the Palestinian peoples”?

 

[sun_tzu]

What if I were the Tory party (a party with a genuine Islamophobic problem) that made a similar tweet in the reverse scenario? Would you make the bigotry accusations then?

yes - I'm absolutely not a fan of the tory party and abhor those kinds of policys universally- as a former labour member though I have more affinity to that party and a clearer understanding of the issue.

 

[Kaos]

So why would chairing the Friends of Israel group suggest you “see little objection to their occupation and oppression of the Palestinian peoples”?

Which of the two nations would you consider the net aggressor?

 

[Kaos]

yes - I'm absolutely not a fan of the tory party and abhor those kinds of policys universally- as a former labour member though I have more affinity to that party and a clearer understanding of the issue.

Fair enough.

But you’d still consider a tweet that simply echoes solidarity with Palestine to have anti-Semitic connotations?

 

[Un4givableB]

Just so I know where we're at.

Corbyn's apologism for terrorism - bad.
Labour friends of Israel's apologism for state-sponsored murder, mass incarceration, segregation - a-okay and any criticism of it must be down to anti-Semitism.

Am I doing this right?

Yes, that's about right, in the upside world where Corbyn is the real racist.

 

[2cents]

Which of the two nations would you consider the net aggressor?

That’s a different topic, one which I’ve spent enough time on elsewhere on this forum, and one which will lead this thread completely astray. Although if you want we can go at it in the relevant thread.

I think it’s obvious the point I’m making here anyway. Anyone can chair either group without necessarily supporting or condoning the worst actions of their ‘side’.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Understood. How can you criticise the Israeli Government without criticising the state of Israel? Are the two not connected?

In this case I mean disputing whether Israel should exist at all.

 

[sun_tzu]

Fair enough.

But you’d still consider a tweet that simply echoes solidarity with Palestine to have anti-Semitic connotations?

in the context of labour being accused of institutional antisemitism and that being the response from an official labour account when somebody leaves because of said institutional antisemitism ... yeah I think it adds to the evidence that some parts do not see the problem and in the current context it is of course poor judgement and yet more evidence of the endemic problem as reported by several of the people who have left

 

[Mozza]

Why do you want to loose another 75mps
Presumably because either you don't support a 2 state solution or you don't think people there should be safe from attack?

Personally I think it's good that we have lfi and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Friends_of_Palestine_&_the_Middle_East
It promotes healthy debate and both support a 2 state solution... Why do you only want to get rid of one?

2 state solution is dead. It is held up as a solution by those who want the slow annexation of the West Bank to continue. There'll also be a fair few useful idiots within the LFI who belive Israel is negotiating from an honest position

 

[Mozza]

Kick them out and call the party jezbollah ?

And how is supporting a 2 party solution and wanting the people in both of those states to be free from attack racist exactly

Racism is unacceptable, so yes kick them out

LFI aren't being honest when they say they want a 2 state solution

 

[sun_tzu]

Racism is unacceptable, so yes kick them out

LFI aren't being honest when they say they want a 2 state solution

And what do you base this dishonesty of 80 MP's on - I mean your saying the 2 state solution is dead so I guess your calling for a 1 state solution (presumably the destruction of israel?) -or more than 2 states? (is israel one of them) - tell me more because I honestly have no idea what your proposing
also presumably you have evidence against these 80 people of being racist to back up kicking them out - would be great for you to share that

 

[ThierryHenry]

A lot of this stuff could go in the Corbyn or Brexit threads, maybe?

Anyway, it's sky data so pinch of salt, and an extra handful of it as it's a very nebulous "new centrist anti-brexit party" option, but first figures I've seen regarding it:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

EDIT - ninja'd by Cheesy, but mine has a graph so I'll allow it.

That’s really interesting. Shows why it wouldn’t have made sense for them to simply join the Lib Dems, whose brand is tainted for the foreseeable future. A new centrist party is immediately more popular than them.

This then surely only works if the Lib Dem’s are willing to let themselves be swallowed up by a new party at some point. Is there any indication this happens? Have any prominent LDs said as much?

 

[rcoobc]

Understood. How can you criticise the Israeli Government without criticising the state of Israel? Are the two not connected?

I don't even think they are. It's possible not to have a problem with the concept of the state of Israel but have issue with its policies.

The same way you can criticise the British government without criticising Britain?

 

[ThierryHenry]

Just saw this from reading upthread, things really are going through an upheaval if you've left as well.

Dunno if @Frosty is still around, but interested to know his thoughts on it all.

I think this is quite common. Despite the huge rise in Labour membership numbers, it seems as if that’s reflected a huge churn rather than simply new members on top of the pre-2015 party.

From Stephen Bush’s (highly prescient!) article last year on the inevitability of a Labour split:

Party memberships always churn, and within Labour the traffic has been one-way, thanks to the gradual shift to the left by successive leaders since Gordon Brown left office. Party activists are far more committed to Corbyn’s leadership than they were even in 2016, when six members in ten backed him over Owen Smith. One Labour MP recently updated his mailing list to be compliant with the General Data Protection Regulation. He discovered that while his local party membership was at a record high of 300, 200 members had left since Corbyn took over as leader. “People say: ‘Oh, we’d have no resources, no activists,’” he says. “But actually there is already a breakaway in the party membership, waiting to be led by someone. Why not us?”

Article here - must read for those in this thread: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/08/labour-party-split-inevitable-corbyn-MPs