The Independent Group for Change | Have decided to disband after ten months

sun_tzu

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He also said it was a tiny minority of mostly new members. Its of course abhorrent behaviour but beyond adopting the IHRA and insisting zero tolerance towards anti-semitism or any form of bigotry, what do you expect Corbyn to do? They’re not MPs but rather bigoted idiots on social media. What would you have him do?
Kick them out of the party.... Which he has not done...
I would have expected him to communicate with Berger which he has not done since 2017
I would have expected him to acknowledge and address the problem
And technically they didn't adopt the ihra... They added a caveat into it rather than adopt it
Basically as a leader of the organisation I expect him to sort out what has clearly been a growing problem over several years...
 

Tibs

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Heidi Allen sounds like she should have joined Labour by what she is saying
 

Tibs

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Kick them out of the party.... Which he has not done...
I would have expected him to communicate with Berger which he has not done since 2017
I would have expected him to acknowledge and address the problem
And technically they didn't adopt the ihra... They added a caveat into it rather than adopt it
Basically as a leader of the organisation I expect him to sort out what has clearly been a growing problem over several years...
In fairness, the ones who have left have been disloyal to Corbyn since day one. There is nothing that he could do to have them support him - am I wrong?
 

Abizzz

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I think you have hit the nail on the head here. It is an interesting development though as they now number more than DUP in Parliament so you have to wonder if the PM will have to start pandering to them as well.
Possibly a route towards getting her deal through without the DUP if there's a couple more from labour?
 

sun_tzu

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Possibly a route towards getting her deal through without the DUP if there's a couple more from labour?
The ones who have left though seem to be proponents of a peoples vote and yes if she offered that she would no doubt get them on board... But not only is she unlikely to offer that but even if she did she would loose all the erg and probably quite a few other conservatives as well
 

sun_tzu

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In fairness, the ones who have left have been disloyal to Corbyn since day one. There is nothing that he could do to have them support him - am I wrong?
To not speak to Berger since 2017 even though it's well documented the abuse and threats she has received.... I think even any basic compassion as a human you would see what you could do to help wouldn't you?
 

Tibs

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Rumours Ken Clarke may leave
To not speak to Berger since 2017 even though it's well documented the abuse and threats she has received.... I think even any basic compassion as a human you would see what you could do to help wouldn't you?
Yes he could have spoken to her...doubt it would have done much to stop this though but who knows.
 

Tibs

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These 11 would do better in Labour in fairness listening to what they want
 

PlayerOne

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Is it bad that I like Anna Soubry? Even before she left the Tories.
 

sun_tzu

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The best way of avoiding being branded as red Tories is definitely to join a business...sorry, party with Tories.
Well I'm sure once comrade Corbyn comes to power me and the centrist MP's will be shown the error of our blairite ways in re-education camps.... Well not Luciana perhaps as jezbollah probably has different camps in mind for her
Joking.... Well half joking
 

2cents

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You’re drawing false equivalence between what’s official government policy of one nation, backed by the world’s sole superpower, and extremist elements of another so that parallel doesn’t quite work.
If “occupation and oppression of Palestinians” is official Israeli government policy, then a commitment to terrorism and rejectionism is official PA policy. In fact both remain officially adherents of the Oslo accords which aim to end the occupation and violence, and secure mutual recognition. My own opinion is that for a multitude of reasons the accords never stood a chance of succeeding and that both sides currently operate on more on unofficial positions which help produce the bad stuff mentioned above. But I’m willing to allow that less cynical observers than me may legitimately see things differently and feel no inherent contradiction in promoting friendship with Israel while supporting Palestinian rights. It may not be the case with Ryan, but it’s definitely possible.

As for your “extremist elements”, they are one of the two factions who represent the Palestinians politically, and in terms of how they acquired this status probably have more legitimacy than any other Palestinian faction in history. They’ve also been described as “friends” by someone relevant to this thread. I know nothing about Ryan, but I’ll accept that she’s not a partial voice on this matter, no more than her former party leader. I agree with you that the criticism of her stance is not antisemitic in this case.
 

Smores

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I'm suprised Soubry has left as whilst i don't agree with her views on many policies she's certainly not a fool. I imagine these Tory rebels will return after the issue of brexit is resolved (if ever).
 

Buster15

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The best way of avoiding being branded as red Tories is definitely to join a business...sorry, party with Tories.
Yes of course because Conservatives are totally on the side of business - NOT.

Collectively they have done far more damage to British businesses than even a Labour government would do.
 

SteveJ

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'She tells it like it is'.
 

Mozza

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And what do you base this dishonesty of 80 MP's on - I mean your saying the 2 state solution is dead so I guess your calling for a 1 state solution (presumably the destruction of israel?) -or more than 2 states? (is israel one of them) - tell me more because I honestly have no idea what your proposing
also presumably you have evidence against these 80 people of being racist to back up kicking them out - would be great for you to share that
1 state, equal rights for all peoples. If Israel can't exist as a state without granting equal rights to all then it shouldn't exist.

Being a member of a organisation that's goes to bat for the apartheid Israel makes you a racist.
 

Drifter

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Please be true

Tony Blair tipped to be next to join Independent Group

Tony Blair is odds-on favourite to be next to join the new Independent Group.

The former Prime Minister joins Alistair Campbell, Heidi Allen and Nicky Morgan on a list of the potential next big names to join the group.

It follows news that three Tory MPs have quit their party to join the centrist faction.


Sarah Wollaston, Heidi Allen and Anna Soubry joined eight Labour MPs, with rumours circulating that more politicians are likely to jump ship.

The Independent Group have been priced at 5/2 to form part of a coalition government after the next General Election.

According to the latest Westminster intention it would garner 14 per cent of the vote if a vote was held tomorrow.

Betway’s Alan Alger, said: “This week has been one of the most dramatic in party politics since the formation of the SDP in the early 80s, and we think the defections to The Independent Group are only just starting.

“With three former Conservatives joining, The Independent Group is positioning themselves as a centrist having been between the two traditional major parties. We make them 20/1 to win the most seats at the next General Election.

“With British politics becoming increasingly fractured, The Independent Group could have a major say in the future of the UK. At 5/2 to be part of a coalition government after the next General Election, their influence and numbers may be key in the kingmaking in parliament.

“Like all things Westminster, the rumour mill is flying as to who the next big name to join the group will be,and we make Tony Blair the 5/2 favourite to be the next public figure to join Labour’s new breakaway group.”

Tony Blair hinted at a creation of a new UK centrist party last year, announcing that he had urged
“serious figures” in both Labour and the Conservatives
to demand change of their leadership.
 

Mozza

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agree 100% - just like you can be in favor of Palestine without supporting attacks undertaken in the name of Palestine by extremists ... I have no problem withe the labour palestinian group - being a member does not defacto mean people support terrorism.
You write as if the only thing Palestinians do is terrorism.
 

villain

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I don't even think they are. It's possible not to have a problem with the concept of the state of Israel but have issue with its policies.
In this case I mean disputing whether Israel should exist at all.
Sure, but most criticisms I see about Israel are criticisms of the policies of the Israeli Government/Army and its treatment of Palestines - and those criticisms are usually labelled as antisemitic.
 

sun_tzu

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Care to comment @sun_tzu
I'd say that's a pathetic attempt to try to brush over some inexcusable language ....
About the only worse way to handle it would have been to say look she's not racist because chukka is black... And even that would only have been slightly worse
They will be a very short lived movement if they drop another bollock like that
 

Mozza

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They can stay united until they have to agree some actual policies. At that point they will have to square the beliefs they previously said they had to policies which will have to satisfy their colleagues. They will be exposed as frauds
 

Synco

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I would also like to know the answer to this.
I've never understood it and i'm admittedly ignorant on the nuances of the conflict in the region.
My answer to the question you quoted wouldn't be a direct one, but a criticism of its presumptions. The way that question was framed, it isn't reasonably answerable, because it's in large parts a strawman argument.

A more reasonable set of basic questions about antisemitism and Israel criticism may be this:

1.) Does a special kind of aggression towards Israel exist because it is a Jewish state?
2.) Is that kind of anti-Israeli aggression - openly or covertly, consciously or unconsciously - a relevant phenomenon?

The answer to both questions is yes.

3.) Are allegations of antisemitism always justified / made in good faith?
4.) Is criticism of Israel / sympathy for Palestinians antisemitic as such?

The answer to both questions is no.

That is a much better framework for a discussion, imo. By contrast, the usual discourse about "antisemitism charges as smear campaigns" ignores the first part entirely and fully concentrates on the second. It then identifies most or all criticism of anti-Israeli attitudes with certain (mostly right wing) discourses. Not that the latter don't exist and have grown more powerful in recent years, but the strawman part is to lump them together with the justified criticism, dismissing them all in one go.

As I said, not a direct answer to your question, but I think it's necessary to first figure out what's talked about, and in which ways.