India vs Pakistan thread

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Won't happen. We will have Pakistanis harping on about "India's problem" and India having to contend with a festering wound that ties down its army in an unwinnable battle of attrition. And the Kashmiris will suffer.

Kashmir is too valuable for either Pakistan or China to stop trying for, and too valuable for India to give up.

Only solution is to make the LoC the international boundary but the last time we tried that we all know what the Pakistani Army did, because then there is no reason for them to exist if the India bogeyman theory ends.

Ultimately I see things getting worse, not better.
 

MJJ

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Using open-source evidence and satellite imagery, @DFRLab was able to confirm the location of the Indian airstrike to be near Balakot, rather than inside it, and firmly within Pakistani territory. The target was supposedly a JEM-led madrassa, but @DFRLab was unable to confirm that any bombs reached buildings associated with it.

The SPICE-2000 is a precision-guided bomb that should not miss its target by the approximately 100 meters that the impact craters were from the nearest structures. The autonomous nature of the SPICE-2000 adds mystery to why the bombs seemed to miss. Satellite imagery did not suggest that any damage was inflicted to nearby buildings. Vegetation and low imagery resolution could hypothetically obscure structural damage, but this remains highly improbably. Something appears to have gone wrong in the targeting process — exactly what, however, remains unclear in the open-source evidence.
https://medium.com/dfrlab/surgical-strike-in-pakistan-a-botched-operation-7f6cda834b24
 

snk123

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i admire your patience @MJJ. This whole episode has just shown who the bully is yet people can't see it. Also watching Abhinandan release now and it's nauseating to see the reaction of the Indian media (and a certain poster here) - somebody remind them that they went in to get Masood Azhar and are getting their own pilot.
 

roonster09

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i admire your patience @MJJ. This whole episode has just shown who the bully is yet people can't see it. Also watching Abhinandan release now and it's nauseating to see the reaction of the Indian media (and a certain poster here) - somebody remind them that they went in to get Masood Azhar and are getting their own pilot.
:houllier:
 

VP

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i admire your patience @MJJ. This whole episode has just shown who the bully is yet people can't see it. Also watching Abhinandan release now and it's nauseating to see the reaction of the Indian media (and a certain poster here) - somebody remind them that they went in to get Masood Azhar and are getting their own pilot.
Like your foreign minister, you almost sound protective of a known terrorists.
 

MJJ

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i admire your patience @MJJ. This whole episode has just shown who the bully is yet people can't see it. Also watching Abhinandan release now and it's nauseating to see the reaction of the Indian media (and a certain poster here) - somebody remind them that they went in to get Masood Azhar and are getting their own pilot.
:lol: its amusing calling out their lies one by one. You have to admire the 'dedication' to still taking the media news as facts instead of getting embarrassed.

No wonder their media doesn't change.
 

snk123

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:lol: its amusing calling out their lies one by one. You have to admire the 'dedication' to still taking the media news as facts instead of getting embarrassed.

No wonder their media doesn't change.
True - i'm still waiting for the "three pilots" under arrest quote.
 

snk123

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Like your foreign minister, you almost sound protective of a known terrorists.
Not at all - I would gladly hand over Masood Azhar and Hafiz Saeed if it means India would stop sending Kulbushans and funding TTP and BLA in Afghanistan and Balochistan.
 

Zlatattack

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Yep, it actually speaks volumes about the skills of Abhinandan. Besides the fact that he is our soldier, we need him back as India cannot afford to lose such talented pilots.

For perspective, the F16 has automatic locking for targets. But for the Mig21, you have to manually lock onto the target while manuoevering. The latter is incredibly difficult and that's what Abhinandan did. The former is obviously what the other Pakistani jets did to bring him down. The Mig-21 is an outdated model, we have upgraded to Mig-29s now.

The Wing Commander's only mistake was overexuberance in crossing LOC to shoot down the F16. It was clear that orders were to not cross into Pak but I think he didn't notice it in the heat of battle.

It is very nice to see Pakistani media crowing about the capture, but what doesn't occur to them is that we could have easily used missiles like Brahmos to take down the Pakistani jets when they crossed into our airspace. Those jets wouldnt have stood a chance then. That we didn't and only used Mig-21s is a sign of our restraint, and despite Pakistan targeting military installations, they couldn't achieve squat.

Now, imagine if we had moved heavy artillery to the border too.

Regarding proofs, it is absolutely clear that a Pakistani F16 was shot down. The army has stated it in a press conference and provided the proofs:

Now, here are a few hard facts:

1) India made a pre-emptive, non-military strike into Pakistan which has been acknowledged by most nations. Even Pakistan, while denying it, inadvertently admitted that there is JeM presence there. Their minister, Sheikh Rashid, yesterday saud in Parliament that India razed down some structures belonging to JeM!

2) However, Pakistan chose to attack our military locations. It wasn't a "non-military" strike. They also used F16s. This was an act of war and hence, India has the right to retaliate.

3) Pakistan captured Commander Abhinandan and tried to use him as leverage for talks at first. India did not budge.

4) This release is no "peace offering". Pakistan are trapped here -- if they admit Abhinandan was a PoW, that means they have to admit that what they did was an act of war (since our Balakot strike has been classified as "non-military" and accepted by other nations; we have also provided the dossier). So, that means we have a right to retaliate and that's what the army meant when they saud "Navy is ready" -- we were ready to go to Karachi port and carry out a blockade.

5) If Pakistan denied that Wing Commander was a PoW and hence not bound to the Geneva Convention, then his arrest by their military is legally void. He isn't an alleged spy like they claim for Kulbhushan and they accept he isn't PoW; hence he did not take any action relevant to war. So, the only crime would have been trespassing into PoK and their police, and not army, should have arrested him and deported him anyway!!

6) Besides all of these, India warned Pakistan that if anything happened to Abhinandan, full-scale war is an eventuality which Pakistan cannot hope to last for 7 days. This is an absolute fact and the idea that PAF can do any damage to us because they managed to overwhelm a pilot in a Mig-21 after their own F16 was taken down is quite laughable.

7) Multiple outlets report that Imran Khan tried to call Modi. The Pakistani propaganda was running full swing, but Imran Khan knows the reality. The Indian government kept mum about Abhinandan purposely to let Pakistan do what they knew was inevitable.

8) Understanding all this, Imran Khan and Bajwa made this great gesture. Magnanimous.:lol:

A bit more from the army briefing:

The army's statement is that they are neither escalating nor deescalating, nor are they considering Abhinandan's return as a "peace offering", but as an obligation due to the Geneva Convention. The reference to this indicates that they consider this an act of war by Pakistan. They also intimated that they will again strike down terror camps in the future -- thus, the implication is that there will be more severe retaliation if Pakistan does not give Masood Azhar or Hafeez Saeed. I also think-- not sure, mind you -- that this means in future, India won't respond to ceasefire violations with Mig-21s and gunfire-- instead of restraint, missiles and heavy artillery could be used to snuff them out.

Anyone with a small understanding of international diplomacy, military warfare and tactics, relative strengths of Pakistan and India and their capabilities should see that I speak only what's the actual reality and not mere emotional patriotic fervour or going "OMG!! WAR11!!" but obviously this will fly over the heads of the usual suspects.
You armchair generals are hilarious.

1. The IAF mig-21 is a bison variant which is fitted with BVR capability. BVR stands for beyond visual range. If you can't see something you can't manually target it. All the fighters anyone operates has the same capability.

2. You've had mig-29s for decades.

3. Brahmos is an air to ground or a ground to ground.missile. Not a Sam.

Plenty more BS.
 

anant

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Interesting read.
Firstly, they seem to acknowledge the presence of a building on top of Jaba top (Ashok Swain has said that, and since his tweet has been used as base of the argument, it makes sense to acknowledge the text in his tweet as fact as well) as JeM camp. If it is known that such activities do take place, why hasn't Pak army acted upon it? Especially since your government seems so keen on wiping out such activities.

Secondly, I'd be more interested in video evidence where they show the crater due to the blast. From the video, the crater seems to be like 5m in radius. I'm not some defence or missile expert but, don't tell me that a 1000 kg bomb will create just that big a crater!
 

MJJ

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Interesting read.
Firstly, they seem to acknowledge the presence of a building on top of Jaba top (Ashok Swain has said that, and since his tweet has been used as base of the argument, it makes sense to acknowledge the text in his tweet as fact as well) as JeM camp. If it is known that such activities do take place, why hasn't Pak army acted upon it? Especially since your government seems so keen on wiping out such activities.

Secondly, I'd be more interested in video evidence where they show the crater due to the blast. From the video, the crater seems to be like 5m in radius. I'm not some defence or missile expert but, don't tell me that a 1000 kg bomb will create just that big a crater!
I am not taking anything said by Indian sources as a fact. The track record over this whole thing has been horrible and nothing but propaganda.

If you take the Pakistani version of events as facts, which they appear to be, you will understand why this is the case. 300 terrorist dead :lol:
 

MJJ

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You armchair generals are hilarious.

1. The IAF mig-21 is a bison variant which is fitted with BVR capability. BVR stands for beyond visual range. If you can't see something you can't manually target it. All the fighters anyone operates has the same capability.

2. You've had mig-29s for decades.

3. Brahmos is an air to ground or a ground to ground.missile. Not a Sam.

Plenty more BS.
Also the fact that a f16 wasnt used or destroyed but let him engage in his fantasy. It's all he has left.
 

anant

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I am not taking anything said by Indian sources as a fact. The track record over this whole thing has been horrible and nothing but propaganda.

If you take the Pakistani version of events as facts, which they appear to be, you will understand why this is the case. 300 terrorist dead :lol:
Dude the article you posted takes that as a base argument!

Again the government has never said how many have been killed and I dont give a feck what the news channels are claiming
 

snk123

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Interesting read.
Firstly, they seem to acknowledge the presence of a building on top of Jaba top (Ashok Swain has said that, and since his tweet has been used as base of the argument, it makes sense to acknowledge the text in his tweet as fact as well) as JeM camp.
First you have to tell us whether you believe your army/media claim that 300 "militants" were killed?
 

Dumbstar

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:lol: its amusing calling out their lies one by one. You have to admire the 'dedication' to still taking the media news as facts instead of getting embarrassed.

No wonder their media doesn't change.
It's like being in the Trump thread being covered exclusively by Fox news. Except with brown necks.
 

MJJ

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Dude the article you posted takes that as a base argument!

Again the government has never said how many have been killed and I dont give a feck what the news channels are claiming
Precisely why your government is trying this case through media. Who do you think the sources are of your media and why has nobody refuted them?

I posted the article to show pictures of the area containing "300 dead bodies"
 

anant

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First you have to tell us whether you believe your army/media claim that 300 "militants" were killed?
I just said it, I do believe that the structures were hit but I'm not sure if anyone was killed or not.

I'm just following the statements by MEA and defence Ministry. Don't give a feck what news channels are saying as that is obviously propaganda.
 

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Easy to understand love of your respective countries. But please keep debate civil.
 

anant

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Precisely why your government is trying this case through media. Who do you think the sources are of your media and why has nobody refuted them?

I posted the article to show pictures of the area containing "300 dead bodies"
Arre bhai! Read the article.

The article that you have posted has assumed the bomb to be SPICE 2000 and that is not based on India's statement- the author has identified that to be the bomb based on pics posted by your major!

Again like I said, I'm not sure how many were killed if at all any. All I'm saying is, if the article is coorect
1. The blast radius should be greater than 5m
2. The location of JeM camp seems to be known as that's what has been assumed here based on Ashok Swain's tweet- why isn't Pakistan taking action on its own?
 
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VanGaalEra

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Not at all - I would gladly hand over Masood Azhar and Hafiz Saeed if it means India would stop sending Kulbushans and funding TTP and BLA in Afghanistan and Balochistan.
Yeah, but the main question is, would you hand over Azhar Mahmood?

 

Kapardin

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You armchair generals are hilarious.

1. The IAF mig-21 is a bison variant which is fitted with BVR capability. BVR stands for beyond visual range. If you can't see something you can't manually target it. All the fighters anyone operates has the same capability.

2. You've had mig-29s for decades.

3. Brahmos is an air to ground or a ground to ground.missile. Not a Sam.

Plenty more BS.
You terrorist sympathizers are equally hilarious.

1) Abhinandan reportedly fired a R 23 missile apparently which is an air-to-air missile employed in a dogfight. Two things to understand here - one is missile locking technology whereby the missile latches onto a heat signature of an aircraft and fires. The other is BVR whereby planes at a distance of say, 200 km can be targeted via radar. I doubt BVR comes into play in Abhinandan's case because the F16 was right before his nose.

The Pakistan F16s have BVR because it was a feature provided them thanks to America's generosity in thinking they were being used to take out the Taliban.

Anyway, semantics aside, he is a talented pilot whether he used BVR or not, no doubts. By manual locking, I was referring to the fact that from the cockpit, he wouldn't have the 360 degree view that some aircraft like Rafale, say have. He was encumbered by the limitations.

2) Agreed about Brahmos. It was a slip of the tongue as I was specifically thinking about it when I wrote it. Regardless, missile power will indeed come into play if we take it to the next step.

3) We upgraded the Mig-29s, didn't upgrade to Mig 29s. I think my sentence construction was not clear.

Saying it's BS by a terrorist supporter without a response has no effect. Now, go lick Hafiz Saeed's rear end for all I care.
 
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amolbhatia50k

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  • Heard Imran Khan's speech in parliament and was very impressed by him.
  • He also referred to their media having reacted sensibly which posters here have alluded to. It saddens me that our own media is such a pathetic bunch.
  • I still believe Pakistan needs to own up to harbouring terrorism inside it's borders. Let's see if Imran Khan does anything about this. Merely saying you're a victim isn't enough. You've got the firepower to go after these groups if you really want and your army allows.
  • Pakistan also needs to let go of their dream of freeing /claiming India's Kashmir. Vested interests keep their interest in this going but it's a pipe dream they'll be better off moving on from.
  • On the Indian side, we have been an utter and complete let down to the people Kashmir. The one state we should have made extra effort to improve has been left to feel neglected.
 
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snk123

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  • Heard Imran Khan's speech in parliament and was very impressed by him.
  • He also referred to their media having reached sensibly which players have alluded to. It saddens me that our own media is such a pathetic bunch.
  • I still believe Pakistan needs to own up to harbouring terrorism inside it's borders. Let's see if Imran Khan does anything about this. Merely saying you're a victim isn't enough. You've got the firepower to go after these groups if your really wants.
  • Pakistan also needs to let go of their dream of freeing /claiming India's Kashmir. Vested interests keep their interest in this going but it's a pipe dream they'll be better off moving on from.
  • On the Indian side, we have been an utter and complete let down to the people Kashmir. The one state we should have made extra effort to improve has been left to feel neglected.
Agreed. I truly believe that the narrative has changed in Pakistan and we are just waiting for India to come to the table and denounce their Doval policy of funding BLA and TTP in Afghanistan before we go after JeM and others.
 

snk123

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You terrorist sympathizers are equally hilarious.

1) Abhinandan reportedly fired a R 23 missile apparently which is an air-to-air missile employed in a dogfight. Two things to understand here - one is missile locking technology whereby the missile latches onto a heat signature of an aircraft and fires. The other is BVR whereby planes at a distance of say, 200 km can be targeted via radar. I doubt BVR comes into play in Abhinandan's case because the F16 was right before his nose.

The Pakistan F16s have BVR because it was a feature provided them thanks to America's generosity in thinking they were being used to take out the Taliban.

Anyway, semantics aside, he is a talented pilot whether he used BVR or not, no doubts. By manual locking, I was referring to the fact that from the cockpit, he wouldn't have the 360 degree view that some aircraft like Rafale, say have. He was encumbered by the limitations.

2) Agreed about Brahmos. It was a slip of the tongue as I was specifically thinking about it when I wrote it. Regardless, missile power will indeed come into play if we take it to the next step.

3) We upgraded the Mig-29s, didn't upgrade to Mig 29s. I think my sentence construction was not clear.

Saying it's BS by a terrorist supporter without a response has no effect. Now, go lick Hafiz Saeed's rear end for all I care.
Hilarious! Resorting to petty insults and saying it has no effect at the same time.

:lol:
 

Ahsan_6386

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  • Heard Imran Khan's speech in parliament and was very impressed by him.
  • He also referred to their media having reached sensibly which players have alluded to. It saddens me that our own media is such a pathetic bunch.
  • I still believe Pakistan needs to own up to harbouring terrorism inside it's borders. Let's see if Imran Khan does anything about this. Merely saying you're a victim isn't enough. You've got the firepower to go after these groups if your really wants.
  • Pakistan also needs to let go of their dream of freeing /claiming India's Kashmir. Vested interests keep their interest in this going but it's a pipe dream they'll be better off moving on from.
  • On the Indian side, we have been an utter and complete let down to the people Kashmir. The one state we should have made extra effort to improve has been left to feel neglected.
Totally agreed with your point of view .
 

Kapardin

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Hilarious! Resorting to petty insults and saying it has no effect at the same time.

:lol:
Resorted to petty insults and said just saying "BS" *without a proper response* has no effect on the validity of his arguments. He was able to nitpick over minor technological details, that's all.

Hilarious, the terrorist sympathizers can't understand English. *insert green smileys here*.

Now if you excuse me, I have better things to do with my time. Safe to say you lot should be under suspicion whenever you travel abroad, though it probably won't happen in these times.
 

Sanche7

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Read a few posts on here saying the attack on Indian military was because the locals were pissed and because of the heavy handed approach of the military and JeM is not the real cause
I find such sympathy towards a known terrorist group frightening tbh.

While I agree the military in Kashmir use heavy handed tactics, to say this is purely an internal issue and JeM are not to be completely blamed is just ridiculous. If anything that twenty something who did the actual bombing was the victim, victim of the army's tactics and more than that the victim of a terrorist group that brainwashed him and gave him the training and explosives to do such an act. How anyone can call him the terrorist and JeM as a minor player is beyond me.

Also follow up question to all the Pakistani posters on here, why do you guys feel so bad for the Kashmiris, are you guys just good human beings caring for the oppressed ? Because AFAIK Pakistan has no right to claim Kashmir and contribute to the problems in the area by causing domestic disturbances.
 

VanGaalEra

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  • Heard Imran Khan's speech in parliament and was very impressed by him.
  • He also referred to their media having reacted sensibly which posters here have alluded to. It saddens me that our own media is such a pathetic bunch.
  • I still believe Pakistan needs to own up to harbouring terrorism inside it's borders. Let's see if Imran Khan does anything about this. Merely saying you're a victim isn't enough. You've got the firepower to go after these groups if you really want and your army allows.
  • Pakistan also needs to let go of their dream of freeing /claiming India's Kashmir. Vested interests keep their interest in this going but it's a pipe dream they'll be better off moving on from.
  • On the Indian side, we have been an utter and complete let down to the people Kashmir. The one state we should have made extra effort to improve has been left to feel neglected.
Good post Amol, find myself agreeing with a lot of it.
 

Zlatattack

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You terrorist sympathizers are equally hilarious.

1) Abhinandan reportedly fired a R 23 missile apparently which is an air-to-air missile employed in a dogfight. Two things to understand here - one is missile locking technology whereby the missile latches onto a heat signature of an aircraft and fires. The other is BVR whereby planes at a distance of say, 200 km can be targeted via radar. I doubt BVR comes into play in Abhinandan's case because the F16 was right before his nose.

The Pakistan F16s have BVR because it was a feature provided them thanks to America's generosity in thinking they were being used to take out the Taliban.

Anyway, semantics aside, he is a talented pilot whether he used BVR or not, no doubts. By manual locking, I was referring to the fact that from the cockpit, he wouldn't have the 360 degree view that some aircraft like Rafale, say have. He was encumbered by the limitations.

2) Agreed about Brahmos. It was a slip of the tongue as I was specifically thinking about it when I wrote it. Regardless, missile power will indeed come into play if we take it to the next step.

3) We upgraded the Mig-29s, didn't upgrade to Mig 29s. I think my sentence construction was not clear.

Saying it's BS by a terrorist supporter without a response has no effect. Now, go lick Hafiz Saeed's rear end for all I care.

So you've backtracked on each of the points I exposed your BS on. Just like your war mongering government.

Talk the talk, but shit the bed when it comes to walking the walk.
 

Zlatattack

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You terrorist sympathizers are equally hilarious.

1) Abhinandan reportedly fired a R 23 missile apparently which is an air-to-air missile employed in a dogfight. Two things to understand here - one is missile locking technology whereby the missile latches onto a heat signature of an aircraft and fires. The other is BVR whereby planes at a distance of say, 200 km can be targeted via radar. I doubt BVR comes into play in Abhinandan's case because the F16 was right before his nose.

The Pakistan F16s have BVR because it was a feature provided them thanks to America's generosity in thinking they were being used to take out the Taliban.

Anyway, semantics aside, he is a talented pilot whether he used BVR or not, no doubts. By manual locking, I was referring to the fact that from the cockpit, he wouldn't have the 360 degree view that some aircraft like Rafale, say have. He was encumbered by the limitations.

2) Agreed about Brahmos. It was a slip of the tongue as I was specifically thinking about it when I wrote it. Regardless, missile power will indeed come into play if we take it to the next step.

3) We upgraded the Mig-29s, didn't upgrade to Mig 29s. I think my sentence construction was not clear.

Saying it's BS by a terrorist supporter without a response has no effect. Now, go lick Hafiz Saeed's rear end for all I care.
Also to further poke holes in your fantasy, why would the Pakistanis use a bvr missile when you claim the engagement was wvr. Are you aware standard config for PAF f16s includes sidewinders? Of course your not - Arnbab hasn't told you yet.
 

Kapardin

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So you've backtracked on each of the points I exposed your BS on. Just like your war mongering government.

Talk the talk, but shit the bed when it comes to walking the walk.
Can't read?

1. I didn't backtrack on saying manual locking was involved. BVR was likely not used.

2. Backtracked on Brahmos, yes.

3. No backtracking on Mig 29s. We have upgraded them. Used to instead of the, that's all.

Jeez, are you dyslexic? Nobody shitting the bed here by some jihadi poster.

Also to further poke holes in your fantasy, why would the Pakistanis use a bvr missile when you claim the engagement was wvr. Are you aware standard config for PAF f16s includes sidewinders? Of course your not - Arnbab hasn't told you yet.
Confirmed you can't read. Where did I say you lot used BVR? I said your jets had BVR capabilities in general as a bit of info and why they were provided with it by America. Stop talking rubbish.

First let your beggar nation earn some respectability in the world before you come to troll. You lot have Masood Azhar, Hafiz Saeed and had Bin Laden supplied with porn videos in a hideyhole near your military base, and you are trolling us over having Arnab fecking Goswami? Hilarious.
 
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Ayush_reddevil

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After all this there is still zero evidence for the fact that Indian killed 300 or so terrorists . All the satellite images seem to be against this claim but the government kind of knows that they got what they wanted
 

anant

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After all this there is still zero evidence for the fact that Indian killed 300 or so terrorists . All the satellite images seem to be against this claim but the government kind of knows that they got what they wanted
Actually, the Govt. hasn't said that we killed x number of terrorists. It's just media saying we killed these many people based on their "sources".
 

MJJ

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Arre bhai! Read the article.

The article that you have posted has assumed the bomb to be SPICE 2000 and that is not based on India's statement- the author has identified that to be the bomb based on pics posted by your major!

Again like I said, I'm not sure how many were killed if at all any. All I'm saying is, if the article is coorect
1. The blast radius should be greater than 1000km
2. The location of JeM camp seems to be known as that's what has been assumed here based on Ashok Swain's tweet- why isn't Pakistan taking action on its own?
And as I am saying regarding two, why should we trust ashok Swains tweet when everything else posted by India has been proven to be false including detailed analysis? Not to mention the way your government has conducted itself like a monkey at a circus howling through the media.

As for 1) according to the same general you guys turned back and dropped the payload hastily once you saw our airforce which should account for the frater.
 
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