India vs Pakistan thread

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fishfingers15

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I think it's about time when we had a thread about India. Politics, Current Events Etc instead of polluting all threads with India vs Pakistan/Bangladesh nonsense.

30 Children dead in 48 hours. If the real issue is nonpayment of bills to oxygen supplier, it's a true shame.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...ur-hospital/story-TwMrMJxhAZzIkn3pXcZEMN.html
 

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How big is this hospital? 30 infant deaths in 48 hours sounds like a lot...but, we need some comparative stats.

For example - I've been to CMC in Vellore and the number of patients they churn through is mind blowing.

Also, I (maybe naively) refuse to believe a hospital could be so negligent as to not have enough oxygen! By the same token...a supplier to a govt hospital stopping delivery of such a critical item is beyond the pale.

Then again human life is cheap in the subcontinent :(
 

fishfingers15

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How big is this hospital? 30 infant deaths in 48 hours sounds like a lot...but, we need some comparative stats.

For example - I've been to CMC in Vellore and the number of patients they churn through is mind blowing.

Also, I (maybe naively) refuse to believe a hospital could be so negligent as to not have enough oxygen! By the same token...a supplier to a govt hospital stopping delivery of such a critical item is beyond the pale.

Then again human life is cheap in the subcontinent :(
I get your point, but the deaths seem to be attributed solely to the lack of oxygen. My cousin works as a doctor in CMC Vellore by the way. Their work is to be admired with the resources they have and the number of patients they cater to.
 

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I get your point, but the deaths seem to be attributed solely to the lack of oxygen. My cousin works as a doctor in CMC Vellore by the way. Their work is to be admired with the resources they have and the number of patients they cater to.
'Seem to be' is the bit that is giving me some cause for pause.

Just as cover ups are the norm, so are examples of people jumping to the wrong conclusions.


 

fishfingers15

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'Seem to be' is the bit that is giving me some cause for pause.

Just as cover ups are the norm, so are examples of people jumping to the wrong conclusions.


Good point. No need to jump to conclusions here but even one death due to nonpayment of bills is a shame.
 

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Good point. No need to jump to conclusions here but even one death due to nonpayment of bills is a shame.
Oh for sure.

From the original article, hospital and authorities have admitted nonpayment was an issue, but they're saying they mitigated the situation by finding an alternate source of oxygen.

I guess we'll have to wait to find out what the facts are. But, as you say...if even one of these deaths was preventable - heads need to roll.


*on CMC - went to meet with Dr. Maya Mary Thomas (an incredible paediatric neurologist)...also visited the Apollo in Delhi. While, Apollo had a lot of perks and the set up made you think of what we see in hospitals in the west...in terms of actual no frills patient care, CMC was miles ahead.
 

fishfingers15

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Oh for sure.

From the original article, hospital and authorities have admitted nonpayment was an issue, but they're saying they mitigated the situation by finding an alternate source of oxygen.

I guess we'll have to wait to find out what the facts are. But, as you say...if even one of these deaths was preventable - heads need to roll.


*on CMC - went to meet with Dr. Maya Mary Thomas (an incredible paediatric neurologist)...also visited the Apollo in Delhi. While, Apollo had a lot of perks and the set up made you think of what we see in hospitals in the west...in terms of actual no frills patient care, CMC was miles ahead.
CMC Vellore is a mission hospital founded by Ida Scudder and they do a LOT of charitable work. Apollo while it is great and state of the art, it is run as a business. I'm not saying CMC is a charity hospital through and through. They do charge money and rely on patient revenue for continuous running and they are one of the most reputable hospital/college/research institute, but there are many avenues within CMC to get grants and write off's on treatment charge.
 

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I fecking hate India sometimes. The cost of life is so bloody cheap.
 

berbatrick

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Indian govt healthcare is probably among the worst in the world. Every aspect - motivated doctors, medicines, cleanliness, number of hospitals, patient/bed ratio, ambulances, administrators, is, on average, bad. I wouldn't be surprised if they ignored the oxygen bill.
It's not a party issue, but given that Cong has been in power for decades...

https://www.newslaundry.com/2017/08...unning-out-of-oxygen-but-did-nothing-about-it
 

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Indian govt healthcare is probably among the worst in the world. Every aspect - motivated doctors, medicines, cleanliness, number of hospitals, patient/bed ratio, ambulances, administrators, is, on average, bad. I wouldn't be surprised if they ignored the oxygen bill.
It's not a party issue, but given that Cong has been in power for decades...

https://www.newslaundry.com/2017/08...unning-out-of-oxygen-but-did-nothing-about-it
And yet Indian Doctors and healthcare staff are amongst the very best in the world, and highly prized all over the world.

Hopefully one day soon, that will benefit India more than the western world.
 

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And yet Indian Doctors and healthcare staff are amongst the very best in the world, and highly prized all over the world.

Hopefully one day soon, that will benefit India more than the western world.
The ones who are trained overseas, though.
 

KM

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And yet Indian Doctors and healthcare staff are amongst the very best in the world, and highly prized all over the world.

Hopefully one day soon, that will benefit India more than the western world.
Think that's in major cities. The third tier cities which is Gorakhpur has a problem.

They've now arrested the oxygen supplier company inspite of them giving reminders to the hospital 41 times about payment of dues. Shambles.
 

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Indian govt healthcare is probably among the worst in the world. Every aspect - motivated doctors, medicines, cleanliness, number of hospitals, patient/bed ratio, ambulances, administrators, is, on average, bad. I wouldn't be surprised if they ignored the oxygen bill.
It's not a party issue, but given that Cong has been in power for decades...

https://www.newslaundry.com/2017/08...unning-out-of-oxygen-but-did-nothing-about-it
When you start having reservations in fields like Medicine, you should not be surprised with the results. The ones who got in purely on merit are all working in private institutes and doing a wonderful job. Also, there is absolutely no accountability in any govt department.
 

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Happy 70th (independence) birthday India:

 

2cents

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This is the part I've heard usually:
I think it's my favourite political speech. Something about it just hits the perfect emotional cord for me.
 

2cents

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@2cents

I think this was a good speech too: https://www.scribd.com/doc/67416161/Nehru-AMU-Convocation-Speech-24-Jan-1948

Convocation speech at Aligarh Muslim University, 6 months after independence, partition, and riots. Of course not as emotional as 15 August, but quite brave to give such a speech.

6 days after this speech, Gandhi was killed.
There's also a great speech that Maulana Azad gave at the Jama Masjid in Delhi around the same time (not sure if it was pre- or post-August 15th) urging the city's Muslims to stay that I read before, can't seem to find it online anywhere.

(Edit): I should say I can't find an English translation of it anywhere online.
 
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sajeev

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Deaths seem to be due to encephalitis and not oxygen as claimed before.
That's not certain, but it is definitely what the government would want us believe considering how insanely stupid shortage if oxygen due to corruption is as a reason. Not been a case like this even in the corrupt governments of Lalu and co.

But not surprising, considering the priorities of some in the government
 

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That's not certain, but it is definitely what the government would want us believe considering how insanely stupid shortage if oxygen due to corruption is as a reason. Not been a case like this even in the corrupt governments of Lalu and co.

But not surprising, considering the priorities of some in the government
Doesn't look like a conspiracy to me. The deaths are staggered and sadly 6 more died the day after. Sounds more like a epidemic than oxygen turn off.
 

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Oh for sure.

From the original article, hospital and authorities have admitted nonpayment was an issue, but they're saying they mitigated the situation by finding an alternate source of oxygen.

I guess we'll have to wait to find out what the facts are. But, as you say...if even one of these deaths was preventable - heads need to roll.


*on CMC - went to meet with Dr. Maya Mary Thomas (an incredible paediatric neurologist)...also visited the Apollo in Delhi. While, Apollo had a lot of perks and the set up made you think of what we see in hospitals in the west...in terms of actual no frills patient care, CMC was miles ahead.
Apollo is pure business. I have had multiple colleagues go away from there as doctors suggested surgeries for back ache, leg ache and everything for guys in their 20s.
I have had my friend die recently of a heart attack while he was recuperating after a surgery in Apollo. While there was nothing to point a finger at Apollo for it, his family were clearly not happy with the way things were handled by Apollo during the surgery.
 

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Apollo is pure business. I have had multiple colleagues go away from there as doctors suggested surgeries for back ache, leg ache and everything for guys in their 20s.
I have had my friend die recently of a heart attack while he was recuperating after a surgery in Apollo. While there was nothing to point a finger at Apollo for it, his family were clearly not happy with the way things were handled by Apollo during the surgery.
Apollo is just abysmal.

My father in law passed away early this year. He suffered a heart attack and family took him to Apollo. They did all sorts of resuscitation efforts and finally declared him dead. When asked for a death certificate, they claimed he was dead on arrival and refused to provide one. No other doctor will provide as they were not involved, which left us with a cold corpse and lot of headache. I had such a terrible time dealing with my wife and her family and running after them trying to obtain a death certificate. Finally I had to use some local contacts to find a doctor who did issue one. We needed them keep the body for 1 night in the mortuary which was in a separate building. The moment we left the main building the orderlies stopped and demanded money to do the rest. 2 of them and they claimed there will be another 6 to help them do it and I needed to pay for 8 people in total. Heartless bastards!

I'd never again deal with Apollo.
 

fishfingers15

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Apollo is just abysmal.

My father in law passed away early this year. He suffered a heart attack and family took him to Apollo. They did all sorts of resuscitation efforts and finally declared him dead. When asked for a death certificate, they claimed he was dead on arrival and refused to provide one. No other doctor will provide as they were not involved, which left us with a cold corpse and lot of headache. I had such a terrible time dealing with my wife and her family and running after them trying to obtain a death certificate. Finally I had to use some local contacts to find a doctor who did issue one. We needed them keep the body for 1 night in the mortuary which was in a separate building. The moment we left the main building the orderlies stopped and demanded money to do the rest. 2 of them and they claimed there will be another 6 to help them do it and I needed to pay for 8 people in total. Heartless bastards!

I'd never again deal with Apollo.
My uncle is a lead surgeon at Bill Roth and this year he was awarded the meritorious honor of surgery of heart conditions. Bill Roth at Chennai is better than Apollo, but then again, I may be biased because my uncle works there.
 

RedDevil@84

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Apollo is just abysmal.

My father in law passed away early this year. He suffered a heart attack and family took him to Apollo. They did all sorts of resuscitation efforts and finally declared him dead. When asked for a death certificate, they claimed he was dead on arrival and refused to provide one. No other doctor will provide as they were not involved, which left us with a cold corpse and lot of headache. I had such a terrible time dealing with my wife and her family and running after them trying to obtain a death certificate. Finally I had to use some local contacts to find a doctor who did issue one. We needed them keep the body for 1 night in the mortuary which was in a separate building. The moment we left the main building the orderlies stopped and demanded money to do the rest. 2 of them and they claimed there will be another 6 to help them do it and I needed to pay for 8 people in total. Heartless bastards!

I'd never again deal with Apollo.
My wife had gone to Apollo some years back only for dressing after her thumb nail was crushed after an old CPU fell on her leg. The nurse or someone squeezed the thumb and when she let out a cry in pain, got scolded for acting like a small kid. To make it worse, the dressing came off by the time my wife reached home.
 

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Indian govt healthcare is probably among the worst in the world. Every aspect - motivated doctors, medicines, cleanliness, number of hospitals, patient/bed ratio, ambulances, administrators, is, on average, bad. I wouldn't be surprised if they ignored the oxygen bill.
It's not a party issue, but given that Cong has been in power for decades...

https://www.newslaundry.com/2017/08...unning-out-of-oxygen-but-did-nothing-about-it
Funding is the biggest problem and covers most of what you mention there. My friend tells me that resources (beds, medicine stock etc) is so insufficient compared to the volume they need to handle that in departments like surgery, they don't even give their all in saving patients who are over the borderline cases because it'd be a waste of resource most of the time.
 

berbatrick

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Funding is the biggest problem and covers most of what you mention there. My friend tells me that resources (beds, medicine stock etc) is so insufficient compared to the volume they need to handle that in departments like surgery, they don't even give their all in saving patients who are over the borderline cases because it'd be a waste of resource most of the time.
Yes, I have a cousin who did her MD and is now a resident at a big municipal hospital in Mumbai. She used to buy basics (like swabs, needles, bandages) for her patients, now she makes them (family members) buy. There aren't enough in stock (I guess they get diverted or just aren't supplied at all).

They have some good things, like generic medicines being supplied free. Unfortunately it also means more paperwork and time since patients have to provide some proof (maybe residence or BPL or something). They end up paying full price often.
 

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Yes, I have a cousin who did her MD and is now a resident at a big municipal hospital in Mumbai. She used to buy basics (like swabs, needles, bandages) for her patients, now she makes them (family members) buy. There aren't enough in stock (I guess they get diverted or just aren't supplied at all).

They have some good things, like generic medicines being supplied free. Unfortunately it also means more paperwork and time since patients have to provide some proof (maybe residence or BPL or something). They end up paying full price often.
Do you guys have tons of pharmacies/chemists outside the hospitals? I've heard that in Bangladesh some of the greedy corrupt doctors end up selling the government supplies to the pharmacies, meaning that the families of patients have to ironically go outside the hospital and buy them back.
 

berbatrick

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Do you guys have tons of pharmacies/chemists outside the hospitals? I've heard that in Bangladesh some of the greedy corrupt doctors end up selling the government supplies to the pharmacies, meaning that the families of patients have to ironically go outside the hospital and buy them back.
Yes, always. I'm not sure how big the corruption/diversion of medicines is, but definitely there are chemist shops outside hospitals that do fantastic business. Primary Health Centres in rural areas are notorious for having almost no supplies, and often no doctor; he sits in his private clinic and gets paid double. Same with some rural schools.

These are all stereotypes, and in some states things are better, so I can't say how generally true it is.
Positive example: http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/he...e-last-resort-is-the-best/article14562119.ece

Terrible: http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/he...-Sitapur-in-Uttar-Pradesh/article14562118.ece
 

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Yes, always. I'm not sure how big the corruption/diversion of medicines is, but definitely there are chemist shops outside hospitals that do fantastic business. Primary Health Centres in rural areas are notorious for having almost no supplies, and often no doctor; he sits in his private clinic and gets paid double. Same with some rural schools.

These are all stereotypes, and in some states things are better, so I can't say how generally true it is.
Positive example: http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/health/Malady-Nation-Indias-public-healthcare-—-When-the-last-resort-is-the-best/article14562119.ece

Terrible: http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/health/policy-and-issues/Malady-Nation-Labour-pain-—-maternity-racket-of-Sitapur-in-Uttar-Pradesh/article14562118.ece
You could transplant that last one to any backwater town in south Asia and I wouldn't question it.
 

RedDevil@84

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Funding is the biggest problem and covers most of what you mention there. My friend tells me that resources (beds, medicine stock etc) is so insufficient compared to the volume they need to handle that in departments like surgery, they don't even give their all in saving patients who are over the borderline cases because it'd be a waste of resource most of the time.
Funding is generally low and whatever funding happens part of it gets diverted by corrupt middlemen. This is apart from problems like some doctors having their own clinics, pharmacists. medical reps, private hospital lobby all doing things to keep govt hospitals in status quo.
 

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The ones who are trained overseas, though.
Nonsense. Many doctors who graduated from India are working in the west.

My uncle is a lead surgeon at Bill Roth and this year he was awarded the meritorious honor of surgery of heart conditions. Bill Roth at Chennai is better than Apollo, but then again, I may be biased because my uncle works there.
Madras has a better medical pedigree than most cities in India.

btw there's already a India thread. I'll just bump it.
 
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