Was it a pen?

[roonster09]

I thought it wasn't a penalty when I watched it, but now after watching different replays and then ref's analysis on BT sport, I have changed mine to "it was penalty".

Also it's not like ref had to make decision based on 1 view, he checked multiple replays and came to the conclusion that it was penalty, so I would go with ref on this one with all the rule changes.

 

[slir32]

I thought it was a penalty. Mainly because he looked straight at the ball turned around and jumped in front of it to block the ball. He knew what he was doing regardless if he meant to hit it with his hand it hit his hand so to bad in my books.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

So it's intentional then by default … you agree with me then?

Where did I say that

As quoted, although I dont agree with you, you have every right with regards to your opinion.

Intent in this context would be defined by several factors as already explained in 1,2 and 3

Its up to the 'end user' to decide.

Now to answer your question

Looking at the 'evidence', from Kimpembe POV it was an intentional cognitive reaction and because a cognitive reaction is intentional by default, it was down to him to make sure that his arms were by his sides or better still, not turn you back on the ball.

Let's make this simple:
I was saying it was definitely a penalty, it seems that you saying it was a penalty too.

Therefore we agree!

 

[RobinLFC]

They really should simplify the rules (though it has probably done with pens like this given all the time). If the hand is not attached to the body and the attacker doesn't deliberately hit the defender's hand with the ball (so if the attacker is not within a couple of yards or so) it should be a pen. It isn't hard to keep your hand attached to the body.

That would literally be the worst rule ever invented in the history of the sport.

 

[Greck]

Still maintain it was a pen. How he turns his torso yet keeps his arm stationery in the path of the ball is really something. It doesn't have to be full on intention. Recklessness will suffice

 

[Organic Potatoes]

I thought it was a penalty. Mainly because he looked straight at the ball turned around and jumped in front of it to block the ball. He knew what he was doing regardless if he meant to hit it with his hand it hit his hand so to bad in my books.

Him looking straight at it in the replay gave it away. It gave the appearance of intent.

 

[Perth Reds]

Whether you think it was one or not it was given thankfully, had it been the other way round and we'd lost the game in that way we'd all be crying & shouting 'never a pen' the rules are getting progressively worse every year, the offside rule is a complete joke.

 

[Snowjoe]

I'll never understand why people roll out the "if it went against us you'd be complaining" as an argument seeing as fans moan about correct decisions that go against them all the time.

 

[mattunited1978]

100% a pen and was 100% sure we were goin to get it once they showed the replays, was already worrying about who was going to take it before he'd even gave it.

Ref had a good game all round i thought, i told the wife he looked like a right bell end at the coin toss aswel, dont judge a book....

 

[roonster09]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Looks like it's a clear penalty.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

Is there not a gif of it in either the match thread or post match threads? I need a good wank before going to work.

 

[RobinLFC]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Looks like it's a clear penalty.

With respect to Honigstein's reasoning: why would it matter whether the shot was deflected by Verratti?

Someone blasts a ball at your arm from close range: penalty
Someone blasts the ball at someone else, it gets deflected from close range against your arm: no penalty

Surely that's the same? Looks to me like he's implying Kimpembe knew beforehand where Dalot was going to put the ball, or even worse, that he saw where the ball was going and was able to adjust his arm in that split second to block the ball.

It appears it's a penalty by the letter of the law, but those laws definitely need to be changed in that case imo.

 

[Buster15]

Let's make this simple:
I was saying it was definitely a penalty, it seems that you saying it was a penalty too.

Therefore we agree!

That never stops people arguing. I have a number of posts agreeing with someone and they come back with a different argument.

 

[cyril C]

Lying through your teeth

I know I'd be filthy if the situation was reversed. I just think there needs to be more common sense when it comes to awarding penalties. A blocked shot from 25-30 yards shouldn't equal a one-on-one where the keeper can't come off his line from 12 yards. Like I say, by the letter of the law it probably was a penalty, but all that really demonstrates is that the law is probably wrong.

So? As long as the law is consistently applied to all teams....

 

[roonster09]

With respect to Honigstein's reasoning: why would it matter whether the shot was deflected by Verratti?

Someone blasts a ball at your arm from close range: penalty
Someone blasts the ball at someone else, it gets deflected from close range against your arm: no penalty

Surely that's the same? Looks to me like he's implying Kimpembe knew beforehand where Dalot was going to put the ball, or even worse, that he saw where the ball was going and was able to adjust his arm in that split second to block the ball.

It appears it's a penalty by the letter of the law, but those laws definitely need to be changed in that case imo.

I don't think that's same. Usually deflections are not given as penalty for whatever reasons. In any case, that's sort of least important point imo in those 3 tweets. It's that decision was consistent, pundits/ex pros in Germany and France thought it was penalty.

 

[RedIan]

Yes it was a penalty. Ive watched it so many times now. Watch it in slow motion. The defender sees the shot, look at his eyes he looks at the ball coming and jumps turning his back on the ball and he sticks his arm out making himself bigger. He looked in fear of being struck by the ball so puts his arm out to protect himself and in doing so deflects the ball off target with his arm. - handball 100%

 

[Buster15]

Just listened on 5live to Mark Hallsey saying it was not a penalty because there is nothing in the rules regarding body shape or size. He qualified his decision on the fact that the defender had turned his back so how could it be deliberate.

I listened to all that but he then said that the VAR team were Italians and the referee was Slovenian.
At that point I stopped listening.
What difference does the nationally make.

 

[RobinLFC]

I don't think that's same. Usually deflections are not given as penalty for whatever reasons. In any case, that's sort of least important point imo in those 3 tweets. It's that decision was consistent, pundits/ex pros in Germany and France thought it was penalty.

It's not necessarily a continental thing though, since all pundits in Belgium thought it wasn't one.

 

[Eleven-Eighteen]

Yes. Close this thread

 

[roonster09]

It's not necessarily a continental thing though, since all pundits in Belgium thought it wasn't one.

I don't know. I didn't find any tweets from belgian journalists. Just from German and French.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I don't understand how its a pen under the rules, his arm isn't in an unnatural position he doesn't intentionally move his hand to block the ball, its cleary ball to arm not arm to the ball. So no its really not a penalty and if I was anything to do with PSG or even a neutral worried about the way the game is going then I would be utterly livid!

But I'm a United fan and we are through to the quarter-final of the champions league against the odds. Yeah we didnt play beautiful football, to be honest, it was pretty Mourinho esc, let the opponent have ball and hope they make a mistake on the counter-attack which they did.

Hopefully next round we will sparkle a bit more and play some better stuff but, but right now im just taking the lucky break we got.

 

[#07]

I genuinely don't understand the 'controversy' about the penalty award. If that happened in the middle of the pitch, with one player trying a forward pass that hits an opposing player's arm, it would be a free kick and nobody would even blink. The fact it turned the game seems to have caused some to lose all perspective. PSG gained a clear advantage from the ball hitting Kimpembe's hand, if the referee did not penalise the advantage gained he'd be failing to apply the rules of the game. Its a foul, it happened in the box=penalty.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

its similar to a hand ball penalty France gave away during the group stages of the last world cup. Clear penalty.

 

[RobinLFC]

I genuinely don't understand the 'controversy' about the penalty award. If that happened in the middle of the pitch, with one player trying a forward pass that hits an opposing player's arm, it would be a free kick and nobody would even blink. The fact it turned the game seems to have caused some to lose all perspective. PSG gained a clear advantage from the ball hitting Kimpembe's hand, if the referee did not penalise the advantage gained he'd be failing to apply the rules of the game. Its a foul, it happened in the box=penalty.

They would've had a goal kick if it didn't, so what's the advantage here?

 

[BluesJr]

Jumping up and making yourself bigger while recklessly turning your back means you are putting yourself in a very risky position.

Penalty. You can’t act like a goalkeeper then claim it’s an accident. Don’t jump to block a shot.

 

[JPRouve]

its similar to a hand ball penalty France gave away during the group stages of the last world cup. Clear penalty.

The two actions have nothing in common, Umtiti slaps the ball while it's way over his head. It would have been a great Volley ball move.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Yes and it's about time we got decisions our way in Europe.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

The two actions have nothing in common, Umtiti slaps the ball while it's way over his head. It would have been a great Volley ball move.

I meant in terms of a a defender being careless with his hands

 

[CA_vampire]

This makes it obvious that he puts his hand there deliberately. He is a world class defender, he knows what he is doing. Even his fingers open in anticipation.

Thank you VAR!

Before VAR, a referee would probably not have the balls to give us this penalty in the 90 minute. But there is no question it is a penalty.

 

[Eckers99]

It's harsh (and we would be spitting flames had it happened to us) but, if the rule is as described in the rest of the thread, then yeah it's a penalty.

 

[JPRouve]

I meant in terms of a a defender being careless with his hands

Kimpembe wasn't careless, he was in a natural position. Umtiti did one of the most unnatural thing that you could image and he did it on purpose.

 

[Kevin_]

A bit soft but it's karma for Kimpembe, should have been sent off at OT.

Agree with this, he was lucky to be on the field.

 

[Hitman Harry]

I was happy it was given as I love a big ending to a big game (and really dislike PSG) but I'm genuinely worried now that this is going to set a precedent for a ridiculous handball penalties being given left, right and centre when there wasn't too much wrong with the administration before. We're eventually going to see defenders playing with their arms tied behind their backs.

 

[#07]

They would've had a goal kick if it didn't, so what's the advantage here?

He blocked a shot at goal by making himself a bigger obstacle than he naturally is.

As I said if this happened in the centre of the pitch, with someone trying to play a forward pass that hit an opponents arm, it would be given as a foul and a free kick all day long. Why should we expect different rules just because it happened in the box?

 

[kouroux]

its similar to a hand ball penalty France gave away during the group stages of the last world cup. Clear penalty.

I'd say more like the pen in the final of the World Cup

 

[Brightonian]

How can there be any argument? He watched the ball coming and stuck his arm out to stop it!

 

[roonster09]

They would've had a goal kick if it didn't, so what's the advantage here?

This isn't hockey isn't it, where only goal bound shots are penalties and other shots are penalty corners.

 

[Niall]

We're eventually going to see defenders playing with their arms tied behind their backs.

Rio Ferdinand made an interesting point about this on BT Sport after the game. He said if defenders have to start constantly putting their hands behind their back in the box for fear of giving away soft handballs, it will give a big advantage to attackers as the defenders balance will be all over the place in that kind of unnatural body position. I don't think it'll come to that (or at least I hope it doesn't) but the rules are getting more and more confusing all the time.

 

[JPRouve]

Rio Ferdinand made an interesting point about this on BT Sport after the game. He said if defenders have to start constantly putting their hands behind their back in the box for fear of giving away soft handballs, it will give a big advantage to attackers as the defenders balance will be all over the place in that kind of unnatural body position. I don't think it'll come to that (or at least I hope it doesn't) but the rules are getting more and more confusing all the time.

That's pretty much my opinion. I think that these type of actions should be sanctioned by free kicks in the box, same thing with shirt pullers or fouls that aren't made during a shooting motion. I assume that it's not a popular view though.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

We have:

Numerous ex-refs from England, Poland, Germany, Croatia, Holland, Slovakia, etc.
Skomina
Couple of refs from VAR room
Mrs Smoker

vs

Mark Clattenberg
oppo fans on RedCafe