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How much of Ole's success is Mourinho's?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Excellent, fair and candid post.
Jose's signings were mostly good. Plus, he brought in Carrick and McKenna into the coaching team. They have helped Ole settle in well.
Honestly, very little. I do think McT really came on under him but he should not get credit for buying players who were crap for him and then came good. Especially because he didn't want half of them after he'd signed them and openly talked about how we didn't have good enough CBs for example.
Also, it's so frustrating people buy into the whole idea that he revitalised Shaw - he bullied him and then let him play. He was always a good player, Mou held his career back. Look how happy Shaw is now.
Also, it's so frustrating people buy into the whole idea that he revitalised Shaw - he bullied him and then let him play. He was always a good player, Mou held his career back. Look how happy Shaw is now.
Zero. feck off Mourinho.
0
This is exactly my problem with many football fans when it comes to analysing. Excellent point there.
Mou signed 11 players with United. Two were 36 year olds, Sanchez and Matic were short fixes on the decline (the latter was a success, the former is shit), he sold 1 of them (Mkhitaryan), he burnt bridges with another (Pogba), he refused to play Fred, he massively overpayed for Lukaku, he insisted on buying a top CB despite buying Bailly & Lindelof while jury is still out with Dalot. If he had his way we would have spent 70m on either Maguire or Toby + we would have spent ridiculous money on Perisic whose now Inter's reserve. Just ask yourself if that's worth it
But lets focus on our defence since that's were Mou since to get credit for. He spent around 70m+ on three players there, yet only one of them is a first teamer. The rest of the defense is made up of 2 SAF's signings (Young and Smalling) while the other is LVG's signing (Shaw). Lindelof as first teamer is open to debate as Mou himself wanted to push for another top CB. Basically Mou pushed for 1 CB per year and despite that, he failed to have the CB's role sorted.
His last season was a joke. Just before he left, we were sitting at seven place, with the manager constantly jabbing at the chairman & players, with our performance nosediving and with our top kids regressing (Rashford, Martial, Pogba) and wanting out (alongside DDG btw). Before he left he gave long term contracts to Rojo and Fellaini not to forget that he also signed Sanchez whose salary is a giant albatross around our neck and one of the main reasons why we're struggling to persuade our top players to sign a new contract. I can't blame them really. If someone so average is paid that ridiculous money then why can't we do the same with those who actually know how to play football?
But lets focus on our defence since that's were Mou since to get credit for. He spent around 70m+ on three players there, yet only one of them is a first teamer. The rest of the defense is made up of 2 SAF's signings (Young and Smalling) while the other is LVG's signing (Shaw). Lindelof as first teamer is open to debate as Mou himself wanted to push for another top CB. Basically Mou pushed for 1 CB per year and despite that, he failed to have the CB's role sorted.
His last season was a joke. Just before he left, we were sitting at seven place, with the manager constantly jabbing at the chairman & players, with our performance nosediving and with our top kids regressing (Rashford, Martial, Pogba) and wanting out (alongside DDG btw). Before he left he gave long term contracts to Rojo and Fellaini not to forget that he also signed Sanchez whose salary is a giant albatross around our neck and one of the main reasons why we're struggling to persuade our top players to sign a new contract. I can't blame them really. If someone so average is paid that ridiculous money then why can't we do the same with those who actually know how to play football?
The question turns a very broad topic into something too simple. A club & a squad is a continuous ongoing process, not a Black & White change from manager to manager.
This Utd Squad is made-up of Players from 4 different managers
SAF - De Gea, Smalling, Young, Jones, Valencia
Moyes - Mata
LVG - Romero, Shaw, Rojo, Martial, Rashford, Lingard, Herrera
Jose - Pogba (debatable), Matic, Baily, Lindelof, Lukaku, Sanchez, Dalot, Fred, Pierrera
Ole - Garner, Greenwood, Chong, Williams.
Every manager, every coach of every club that has worked with any of those players & helped them develop has played a part in where the players & therefore squad are at now.
This Utd Squad is made-up of Players from 4 different managers
SAF - De Gea, Smalling, Young, Jones, Valencia
Moyes - Mata
LVG - Romero, Shaw, Rojo, Martial, Rashford, Lingard, Herrera
Jose - Pogba (debatable), Matic, Baily, Lindelof, Lukaku, Sanchez, Dalot, Fred, Pierrera
Ole - Garner, Greenwood, Chong, Williams.
Every manager, every coach of every club that has worked with any of those players & helped them develop has played a part in where the players & therefore squad are at now.
Mourinho deserves no credit. His "work" led to embarrassing defeats, draws, and some of the most boring football I've ever witnessed.
There are some tactically changes from Ole compared to José but the Away games to Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, PSG & Home to Liverpool adopted a very Mourinho like sit back, counter & capitalise on mistakes.
Had the results been different across those games, the tactics & performances may have been looked upon differently.
We have sat deep in a lot of those games, it’s not the huge attacking football people seem to perceiving it as
Had the results been different across those games, the tactics & performances may have been looked upon differently.
We have sat deep in a lot of those games, it’s not the huge attacking football people seem to perceiving it as
Pogba wanted to come back. There’s not a sane manager in the world who would’ve turned him down, and if they did Ed probably would’ve bought him anyway. He gets no credit for that.
Mourinho was shite. That’s not an extreme position, it’s the truth.
Although I could go with the flow and write zero nilch, bada, virus and so on I'd rather stick with this kind of posts. Only last year we were 2nd and had a great run vs top 6. In the big games this season tactics were not so much different but Ole did bring confidence and self belief back. And that was the key or one of the keys. His attitude is different and what we need right now.
Jose, although this season it was a disaster, did bring some silverware, did make some good transfers and not all of his reign can be called a disaster cause it all nose dived this season. And I'm sure some players benefited from his time at the club although from the outside it doesn't seem so cause he's the one we don't talk about.
For all the accepted knowledge that Mourinho has a boom/bust cycle, it’s surprising how many people fail to recognize the boom elements once they’re fed up with his bust (badaboom!).
Obviously Mourinho helped improve the team and many of the players in several ways, which he in the end more than countered with his weaknesses. It’s equally obvious we wouldn’t have won the first five games on the trot with a 16-3 GD if Mourinho had left us a badly trained and tactically clueless lot for Solskjær to teach football in some days and weeks.
Quite the opposite, he had left something that only needed positivity, confidence boosting and a few tweaks to roar past teams.
It’s really not a question of if, but of what he gave, and that is hard to tell. He is known for building team discipline, defensive structure, and making players take responsibility for creative problem-solving on the pitch. He is also known for eventually tearing down that team discipline and undermining the confidence necessary for players taking creative responsibility. My guess the answers lie in the first part of that cycle.
What does that say about Ole? That he has magnificent skills at releasing potential, boosting confidence and rebuilding team discipline! Great!
Then we shouldn’t forget that during away wins against Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea and PSG, we’ve seen progress in defensive play, new tactical measures introduced, incereasing amounts of succesful defensive in-game restructuring, and last but not least, we’ve defended while still scoring goals at the other end. I think by now we see Solskjærs finger prints on our defensive game very clearly. Unless it’s all Mick Phelan, of course.
Obviously Mourinho helped improve the team and many of the players in several ways, which he in the end more than countered with his weaknesses. It’s equally obvious we wouldn’t have won the first five games on the trot with a 16-3 GD if Mourinho had left us a badly trained and tactically clueless lot for Solskjær to teach football in some days and weeks.
Quite the opposite, he had left something that only needed positivity, confidence boosting and a few tweaks to roar past teams.
It’s really not a question of if, but of what he gave, and that is hard to tell. He is known for building team discipline, defensive structure, and making players take responsibility for creative problem-solving on the pitch. He is also known for eventually tearing down that team discipline and undermining the confidence necessary for players taking creative responsibility. My guess the answers lie in the first part of that cycle.
What does that say about Ole? That he has magnificent skills at releasing potential, boosting confidence and rebuilding team discipline! Great!
Then we shouldn’t forget that during away wins against Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea and PSG, we’ve seen progress in defensive play, new tactical measures introduced, incereasing amounts of succesful defensive in-game restructuring, and last but not least, we’ve defended while still scoring goals at the other end. I think by now we see Solskjærs finger prints on our defensive game very clearly. Unless it’s all Mick Phelan, of course.
Correct.
It would be naive to say that he had no affect at all on the current performances.
It is normal for any replacement manager to inherit something from his predecessor and we can see now that our squad is nothing like as bad as previously thought.
Jose constrained the players and so when Ole came in and took the brakes off there was a rapid improvement.
However, Ole has done much more than simply letting the players off the lead. He has given them back the purpose and belief so it has been much more than just a new manager bounce.
If I had to put a number on it I would estimate 15 to 20%.
i cannot believe you think that. We were always leaking at the back during Jose's time at the club and that was mainly due to hard defensive work and playing in our own half. We hardly moved past the half line mark but under Ole we have been progressive and better going forward. So don't count this as anything to do with Jose and his training. It's purely OLE OLE OLE !!!
Lindelof and nothing else, be nice to have more experience in finals. That's as much as he's getting. It's more about the damage he done, miserable bstard ripped the heart of the club out at the end and didn't care.
More than I think people want to admit.
Mourinho may have lost the squad, particularly Pogba but he’s still largely responsible for accumulating it. Something something about bad not washing out the good and vice versa. Some of our best players of late have been Mourinho signings and he deserves credit for persisting with Lindelof when I’d imagine a lot of people, myself included, thought he was a sure bust. We may have made some of these signings anyways but if he’s rightfully blamed for Alexis and Mkhi failing then you can’t disregard signings that worked out. Yes he’d might have sold Pogba and Martial, might have signed Maguire and Perisic, but he didn’t.
Hilariously in the last few weeks we’ve looked more like a great Mourinho side than at any point in his tenure. PSG, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea in particular. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.
Mourinho may have lost the squad, particularly Pogba but he’s still largely responsible for accumulating it. Something something about bad not washing out the good and vice versa. Some of our best players of late have been Mourinho signings and he deserves credit for persisting with Lindelof when I’d imagine a lot of people, myself included, thought he was a sure bust. We may have made some of these signings anyways but if he’s rightfully blamed for Alexis and Mkhi failing then you can’t disregard signings that worked out. Yes he’d might have sold Pogba and Martial, might have signed Maguire and Perisic, but he didn’t.
Hilariously in the last few weeks we’ve looked more like a great Mourinho side than at any point in his tenure. PSG, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea in particular. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.
And embarrassing press conferences as well.
You’d see I agree if you read my whole post.
None of it.
Solskjaer may have got some of Mourinho's signings playing better (which Mourinho couldnt manage) but lets not forget Mourinho also sold the likes of Blind, Januzaj, Miki and Depay who are doing well elsewhere. And given what we spent compared to what we received for these players, his signings arent that much of an improvement.
Solskjaer may have got some of Mourinho's signings playing better (which Mourinho couldnt manage) but lets not forget Mourinho also sold the likes of Blind, Januzaj, Miki and Depay who are doing well elsewhere. And given what we spent compared to what we received for these players, his signings arent that much of an improvement.
Agreed. That is one thing I like about Jose. He makes quality signings most of the time. So even when he leaves the club in turmoil, it's easier for the club to turn it around because of the quality players they have available.
But the credit for getting them to play as well as they are in such a short time goes solely to Ole and his team. He has not only brought the players together but has revived the morale of the fans as well. Everything that we are seeing now is 100% Ole and has nothing to do with Jose.
Absolute Zero, Mourinho is a distant memory now.
He fecked...
Shaw
Martial
Pogba
Lindaloff
Rashford
Herrera
He played the blandest, negative football in the league.
He fecked...
Shaw
Martial
Pogba
Lindaloff
Rashford
Herrera
He played the blandest, negative football in the league.
He signed some very good players for us but obviously ultimately didn't get anywhere near the best out of them. He gave McTominay chances on occasion, albeit often foolishly so. But ultimately, most of the credit should go to Ole, Phelan, the other coaches and of course the players.
Those players are trash. All of them playing at their level.
Pereira was in the academy since 2012. Brought in to the squad by LvG. Spent seasons on loan at Granada and Valencia. I don't think you can give Jose credit.
Null, zero, none.
Unless by success you mean having signed good players like Pogba, Lindelof and Lukaku.
Unless by success you mean having signed good players like Pogba, Lindelof and Lukaku.
You get a job throwing a ball in the air as high as you can. You then smash it into the ground as hard as you can. That makes you a total disaster.
Then the ball bounces. You were still a disaster. But what happens next is mainly down to you.
Not to take anything away from Ole though. He's maximised the bounce brilliantly. But we possibly know less about his long term abilities than we think we do.
Then the ball bounces. You were still a disaster. But what happens next is mainly down to you.
Not to take anything away from Ole though. He's maximised the bounce brilliantly. But we possibly know less about his long term abilities than we think we do.
If Mourinho was as good defensively as you make him out to be then how come we were on a minus 2 goal difference and leaking in goals left right and centre? We looked like complete amateur donkeys defending. He deserves absolute feck all from this club and it's fans. The fecker left us in a disastrous state and got a £19m pay out. Then the man who deserves all the credit came in and did what many including myself thought was impossible, to take us back in a top 4 race so yeah, in terms of credit every single ounce of it should go to Ole and his staff.
Ah, so it was Jose that signed these players. Thought they were all Woodward/ 3rd and 4th choice signings
De Gea, Smalling, Young (SAF) 3/11
Shaw, Herrera, Martial, Lingard/Rashford (LVG) 4/11
Pogba, Lindelöf, Matic, Lukaku (Mourinho) 4/11
So the answer is 36% of our sucess comes from Mourinho.
Shaw, Herrera, Martial, Lingard/Rashford (LVG) 4/11
Pogba, Lindelöf, Matic, Lukaku (Mourinho) 4/11
So the answer is 36% of our sucess comes from Mourinho
.Mourinho built a better squad than his predecessors but did not know how to use it. He could also get some credit for getting some good European experience into some of the players by winning the uefa. We were decent away from home in Europe with him. Mctominays blooding and signing of dalot will hopefully also prove to be good.
To say none is silly but solskjaer deserves THE Enormous majority and I would say the entire amount for how we actually play.
To say none is silly but solskjaer deserves THE Enormous majority and I would say the entire amount for how we actually play.
Not sure if it’s been mentioned but wasn’t it something like 1 clean sheet in 19 games under Mourinho?
The team spirit has completely changed and the style of has changed. Yes we’ve given up possession against teams away from home in order to counter, but we were giving up possession against relegation fodder team under Mourinho.
I can’t give him any credit for anything since the start of the season, and that stretches back to the tail end of last season too.
I believe that what we’re experiencing isn’t the new manager bounce or the honeymoon period, it’s the beginning of a new era.
The team spirit has completely changed and the style of has changed. Yes we’ve given up possession against teams away from home in order to counter, but we were giving up possession against relegation fodder team under Mourinho.
I can’t give him any credit for anything since the start of the season, and that stretches back to the tail end of last season too.
I believe that what we’re experiencing isn’t the new manager bounce or the honeymoon period, it’s the beginning of a new era.
I just wasn’t sure which manager he was promoted to 1st team under, felt like it wouldn’t have been long ago enough to be LVG
Mourinho brought in some decent players and moved on some poor ones (personally, I'd have kept Blind ahead of Jones or Rojo but hey ho) but as far as this season goes, I can't give him any credit. He started the season tripping over his long face, left the players uniinspired and demotivated, playing cheerless football that enthused no one.
Solskjaer has brought a smile, a style and a swagger back to Manchester United absent since SAF left. He doesn't big up the opposition or suggest we should aspire to be them. He says 'We are Manchester United and THIS is what WE do'. He doesn't drone on about his 'Philosophy', his team demonstrate it on the pitch. He doesn't moan and bitch and trip over his long face in every media appearance, he's excited by what his team can do.
Mourinho brought in some good players but his attitude turned them to shit. Ole has restored their confidence.
So I'd say Mourinho gets maybe 5% of the credit.
Solskjaer has brought a smile, a style and a swagger back to Manchester United absent since SAF left. He doesn't big up the opposition or suggest we should aspire to be them. He says 'We are Manchester United and THIS is what WE do'. He doesn't drone on about his 'Philosophy', his team demonstrate it on the pitch. He doesn't moan and bitch and trip over his long face in every media appearance, he's excited by what his team can do.
Mourinho brought in some good players but his attitude turned them to shit. Ole has restored their confidence.
So I'd say Mourinho gets maybe 5% of the credit.
Blind just played a huge part in helping his team to 1-4 demolition job of RM. joining us in the quarter final. if that's the level then yes it was wrong to let him go before some others in the squad. depay was also not utilized properly.
I mean he also recently played his part in a 6-2 loss to Feyenoord if we're going to randomly attribute team results & performances to individual players.
He was nothing more than a utility player here. He quite often got exposed under both LVG and Jose for a lack of physicality in the PL - The Dutch league is far more suited to his attributes. There's a reason these players went to the clubs they did rather than Barcelona or Bayern. They're not going to wind up at bigger sides anytime soon either. They had multiple opportunities under multiple managers and couldn't produce. They have to be held accountable for their own performances rather than using the manager as an excuse.
Memphis has been booed by his own fans lately. Still the same talented player with the same massive head still firmly up his own arse. He's not going to make it at a bigger club than Lyon and never had the mentality to make it here. Martial is a better version of him in just about every sense.
Even Zero would generous to be fair
He signed Lindelof, Pogba, Fred, Matic and Dalot. He promoted McTominay. So he deserves credit for those, as he deserves criticism for his many feck ups.
I’d say 5x5-25=?
But if it isn’t?