Iran v US confrontation

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,382
11101 said:
for the most part Europe (certainly Western Europe) has finished with its internal squabbling
Click to expand...
Wouldn’t be so sure of that.

11101 said:
The MEA and Africa still in many areas identifies itself by tribe, religion and culture ahead of actual country, just as we used to do in Europe. Until they move on from that there will always be conflict. People would still get killed if the US left them all alone, it would just be a different set of people. It's extremely naive to think if the US never got involved all things would be rosy.
Click to expand...
Don’t think anybody is saying everything would be great and peaceful. But the fact is we can’t know for sure. We do know, however, that there have been times in history when the region has been a lot more politically/socially stable (relative to the times) than it is today.

Whatever role tribalism/religious/cultural issues may play, the ‘ancient hatreds’ explanation for the region’s problems shouldn’t be used to obscure the many readily identifiable modern political issues which have driven the conflicts. One of which is undoubtedly the actions of international powers and especially in recent decades the US. There’s no cause to lay the entire blame for these problems at their feet, but there’s less reason to let them off the hook.
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
21,423
2cents said:
Wouldn’t be so sure of that.
Click to expand...
Really? When was the last time anyone in Western Europe started fighting within their own borders. You get the occasional flare up from NI but nothing close to a full on war. We have largely settled on our national identities by now.


2cents said:
Don’t think anybody is saying everything would be great and peaceful. But the fact is we can’t know for sure. We do know, however, that there have been times in history when the region has been a lot more politically/socially stable (relative to the times) than it is today.
Click to expand...
They've also been a lot worse. Those regions have not been stable for thousands of years and probably wont be any time soon. If the US had never set foot there it wouldn't be a whole lot different.

I'd far rather the Americans and us would just leave them all alone, but the endless blaming fails to recognise that if that did happen things wouldn't be much different than they are now. Just a different set of people fighting over a different set of things. All that might change is there would be more large scale genocides as warlords and dictators were allowed to do as they please.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,382
11101 said:
Really?
Click to expand...
Yes really. 74 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things, and there are explanations for Western Europe’s relative stability in that time beyond the idea that we’ve somehow learned to be more civilized than the rest of the world (and especially the Middle East). And a quick look around at European politics right now would suggest that the potential for a lot of unraveling exists across the continent, so it’s probably best not to be smug or complacent on this issue.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,382
11101 said:
Pretty sure the explanation is more simple; it's too big for the Suez Canal. Fully laden supertankers always go round the Horn of Africa because the canal is not deep enough for them.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I had no idea this was the case.
 

SteveW

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
7,194
So has enough consent been manufactured yet or will it take a bit longer?
 
Last edited:

sun_tzu

The Art of Bore
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
19,536
Location
Still waiting for the Youthquake
SteveW said:
So yes enough consent been manufactured yet it will it take a bit longer?
Click to expand...
when does meuller testify... (July 17th I think)
Id guess the airstrikes start a day or two before
And I still think it will be limited to air strikes as a ground offensive seems a non starter to me... largely covered here by general binkov
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,382
sun_tzu said:
when does meuller testify... (July 17th I think)
Id guess the airstrikes start a day or two before
And I still think it will be limited to air strikes as a ground offensive seems a non starter to me... largely covered here by general binkov
Click to expand...
So air strikes on Iran in the next 5-6 days?
 

sun_tzu

The Art of Bore
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
19,536
Location
Still waiting for the Youthquake
Smores said:
Seems to be reported on Sky as an "attack" :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
3 armed vessels (apparently revolutionary guard) heading towards an unarmed tanker after ordering it to stop in Iranian waters after the Government said it intended to seize a UK tanker in retaliation and the vessels only turned around when a Royal Navy boat positioned its self between them and the tanker and threatened to open fire... not sure if that constitutes an attack or not and im equally sure it will be reported very differently in Iran - but it seems inevitable that at some point something is going to escalate there.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,382
sun_tzu said:
Would be a hell of a distraction wouldn't it... plus they have breached their nuclear agreement, plus they have attached a ship, plus they tried to attack another ship is the narrative so the USA USA USA almost has to show them whose boss?
Click to expand...
Well I’m skeptical. I don’t think Trump is looking for a conflict, and I don’t his actions are driven by a constant search for ‘distractions’ from Mueller. Although this seems to be gospel with some on here.
 

utdalltheway

Sexy Beast
Joined
Aug 20, 2001
Messages
20,569
Location
SoCal, USA
sun_tzu said:
3 armed vessels (apparently revolutionary guard) heading towards an unarmed tanker after ordering it to stop in Iranian waters after the Government said it intended to seize a UK tanker in retaliation and the vessels only turned around when a Royal Navy boat positioned its self between them and the tanker and threatened to open fire... not sure if that constitutes an attack or not and im equally sure it will be reported very differently in Iran - but it seems inevitable that at some point something is going to escalate there.
Click to expand...
The British govmnt can’t be trusted to tell the truth in situations like these. Sadly, they’ve shown in the past that lies or half truths are perfectly normal so colour me sceptical when I read any reports from them which “justify” their position as tensions mount.
Bolton will be happy though so that’s a bonus for the UK warmongers.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,382
Guiliani promoting the MEK from their annual conference in Albania:


Here’s a look at their bot factory there:

 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,382

 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,922
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
Even as an old white conservative Democrat he admires trump.
 

berbatrick

Renaissance Man
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
21,918
Sean Hannity once claimed he got on well with Dems. When asked to name, he struggled for a bit before coming up with Lieberman.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,382
I honestly thought he was dead before I saw that tweet. He’s exactly where I’d expect him to be right now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.