Eboue
nasty little twerp with crazy bitter-man opinions
pissing play in sex or something even kinkier
wait a professional athlete got beaten up by a 16 year old?Gareth Thomas chose the path of restorative justice for this, it was a 16 year old kid and apparently according to Thomas the meeting between them was incredibly positive. Good to see him taking an horrendous incident and using it to highlight and educate homophobia.
This is why it would be great if a current prem footballer (or even better more than one) would come out and send the same positive message.
I think it should be kept in mind that coming out is ultimately something that you do for yourself - not for bigots. For that reason, I don't really think someone's method of coming out should be evaluated based on how effective it would be at combating homophobia. If someone wants to formally come out very publicly and use their platform to push change a la Rapinoe, that's okay, and if someone wants to live their life quite privately like O'Hara, that's okay too.I actually think that route (O'Hara) is probably the best to take. Rather than being made to feel like an announcement has to be made, if a footballer chose to come out as gay I think the best way to do it would be to just live life, hold their boyfriend's hand while shopping, kiss them in public getting out of or into a car etc just normal things all couples do. Doing normal things and just being seen doing them is the best way to normalise it in other people's eyes, in some eyes it doesn't even need normalising. In doing so, the front foot/upper hand whatever you want to call it is being taken and one thing bigotts don't like is being put on the back foot. Most bigotts retreat or go into their shell when confronted in my experience. They like being the ones to offer their opinion and being the aggressor, the best route is to take that away from them.
Yup https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-46253256wait a professional athlete got beaten up by a 16 year old?
Rubbish post. People in general do plenty of daft things out of stupidity/wanting attention/any other reason. And, a few stray incidents of poor behaviour aside (which is human nature not gay human nature), the minority communities are always fighting for their right to exist and have an equal standing, and a good portion of the 'majority', I find, completely fail to empathize with their struggles which is where a large part of the problem starts. They really wouldn't have to go through as much as they do and hence lash back at times, if they weren't treated so dismissively, abusively, mockingly etc by others.I agree, but unfortunately there are gay people who do a lot of things for shock value alone, and that does no favors for the gay community. But this criticism coming from me is quickly dismissed as homophobia. Unless the criticism comes from the gay people, against using sexuality as a social weapon, we'll keep seeing this tug of war, and guess what, the gay side of the rope is weaker.
I'm all for equality but this SJW bullshit is not about equality, it's about war, and it's a war that the minorities being used as sheep for political and ideological reasons will find they can't win.
Unfortunately there's a lot of "in your face" stuff coming from the gay camp. It's hard to take two steps without seeing a rainbow forced down everyone's throats, often out of context. Frankly, it's annoying. I'm sure even a lot of gays find it annoying.
That's just my two pence. Don't call the British police, please, I know that they knock on your door if you express your opinion on the internet.
In a real sport it's normally the other way around https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/30916435you'd never see that happen to someone who played a real sport
soccer isnt a real sport eitherIn a real sport it's normally the other way around https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/30916435
Perhaps you misjudge other people's intentions and I'm sorry if you think that way. You can't always read someone's tone over the internet. Is it not normal to ask further questions regarding one's views and thought processes during a discussion? Is it not normal for one with strong opinions to be willing to address comments and queries regarding their reasoning process? Why do you see the need to avoid answering such questions to further the discussion and instead use ad hominem remarks?The idea that you are discussing anything in "good faith" is laughable quite frankly.
Not sure if serious, but I’ve heard this racial inference made before and I’ve never understood it - a quick search reveals what I suspected: that the expression predates the racist slur (spade). So why do people insist on it being a racist term? Sorry to derail!It is good that you are against homophobia but I think you need to review you use of race based language
You're right that the origin of the phrase had nothing to do with race, but in the early 20th century it became heavily associated with racial slurs. Certainly not the first word or phrase that has changed meaning over time. But to say now in 2019 it's not seen as offensive by some would be wrong. lots of info hereNot sure if serious, but I’ve heard this racial inference made before and I’ve never understood it - a quick search reveals what I suspected: that the expression predates the racist slur (spade). So why do people insist on it being a racist term? Sorry to derail!
It's subjective I guess, but there's no arguing this onesoccer isnt a real sport either
Wow, I always thought that phrase was a card reference of some sort. The racist connection seems to be a regional slang and doesn't relate to some worldwide usage of the term, or am I wrong in thinking that?You're right that the origin of the phrase had nothing to do with race, but in the early 20th century it became heavily associated with racial slurs. Certainly not the first word or phrase that has changed meaning over time. But to say now in 2019 it's not seen as offensive by some would be wrong. lots of info here
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade
No of course it is seen as racist; hence my inquiry. But I still don't see why. I mean there are a number of other terms that we could suddenly deem racist by simply looking at one word in the term.You're right that the origin of the phrase had nothing to do with race, but in the early 20th century it became heavily associated with racial slurs. Certainly not the first word or phrase that has changed meaning over time. But to say now in 2019 it's not seen as offensive by some would be wrong. lots of info here
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade
I was 100% joking mate. Thus the winking emoji.Not sure if serious, but I’ve heard this racial inference made before and I’ve never understood it - a quick search reveals what I suspected: that the expression predates the racist slur (spade). So why do people insist on it being a racist term? Sorry to derail!
Honestly don’t know why, but language evolves and meanings change. A good example is the word faggot, originally means a bunch of sticks, then a few hundred years ago it became a way of referring to old women in a derogatory way, a bit like old hag I guess, nowadays we all know it’s meaning and it’s not a nice word to use. Why has that happened and chink in the armour has not evolved like that ... who knows but it has.No of course it is seen as racist; hence my inquiry. But I still don't see why. I mean there are a number of other terms that we could suddenly deem racist by simply looking at one word in the term.
As far as I know, these terms haven't been frowned upon, so why has the term 'calling a spade a spade' been singled out?A chink in the armour; to nip it in the bud; to dance a jig; spooky; etc.
What do you reckon the gay camp will shove down our throats next? Metaphorically, of course. We aren’t actual gays.I agree, but unfortunately there are gay people who do a lot of things for shock value alone, and that does no favors for the gay community. But this criticism coming from me is quickly dismissed as homophobia. Unless the criticism comes from the gay people, against using sexuality as a social weapon, we'll keep seeing this tug of war, and guess what, the gay side of the rope is weaker.
I'm all for equality but this SJW bullshit is not about equality, it's about war, and it's a war that the minorities being used as sheep for political and ideological reasons will find they can't win.
Unfortunately there's a lot of "in your face" stuff coming from the gay camp. It's hard to take two steps without seeing a rainbow forced down everyone's throats, often out of context. Frankly, it's annoying. I'm sure even a lot of gays find it annoying.
That's just my two pence. Don't call the British police, please, I know that they knock on your door if you express your opinion on the internet.
I specifically said that I'm sure that there are many enlightened and mature people in Eastern Europe, but that considering the number of quite explicit racist incidents that have occurred in this part of the world (which is a fact) it wouldn't hugely surprise me if other forms of bigotry are also prevalent.Yeah, but you kind of made a very non-enlightened comment about the situation, which is ironic because of what you are accusing us of. A lot of people that like to talk and bash our region have absolutely no idea of its' history.
And this article from 2016 in The Independent:Monkey chants were aimed at England players during a Euro 2020 qualifier in Montenegro and there has been a series of episodes involving London clubs.
"Racism exists in the stadiums in France, but we cannot put the situation on the same level as in Eastern European countries or Italy," football sociologist Nicolas Hourcade, a professor at the Central School of Lyon, told AFP.
Wouldn't be surprised to know that that 16 year old looks like a 28 year old with all the hormones in food these dayswait a professional athlete got beaten up by a 16 year old?
You'll still hear the phrase used completely normally across the UK. It's not really considered racist unless you say it with that intent. Likewise @The Boy 's example, if you ask for a faggot in many parts of the UK you'll get a weird meatball like thing, and if you ask for a fag you'll be given a cigarette. It depends on the context in which it's used.No of course it is seen as racist; hence my inquiry. But I still don't see why. I mean there are a number of other terms that we could suddenly deem racist by simply looking at one word in the term.
As far as I know, these terms haven't been frowned upon, so why has the term 'calling a spade a spade' been singled out?A chink in the armour; to nip it in the bud; to dance a jig; spooky; etc.
And do you know the reasons why this region is like that? It's a very complex problem, the homophobia really exists and comes mainly from a certain set of these "football" hooligans, who mostly are actually connected to proper mafia shit, at least in my country it is like that. They are ignorant Nazis that use the occasions to show their ignorance and our dumb government is too entangled into behind the curtains shenanigans so they don't want to do anything effective about them.I specifically said that I'm sure that there are many enlightened and mature people in Eastern Europe, but that considering the number of quite explicit racist incidents that have occurred in this part of the world (which is a fact) it wouldn't hugely surprise me if other forms of bigotry are also prevalent.
I don't really feel making this assertion requires a huge amount of insight or historical knowledge, but it is common knowledge that racism is a problem at football grounds in Eastern Europe. For example, here's an article from April:
https://www.straitstimes.com/sport/...ith-racism-after-french-ligue-1-abuse-adds-to
And this article from 2016 in The Independent:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...urope-azerbaijan-russia-armenia-a7024416.html
The 15 least gay-friendly countries in Europe are Italy, Macedonia, Poland, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Latvia, San Marino, Moldova, Belarus, Ukraine, Monaco, Turkey, Armenia, Russia and Azerbaijan - so they're virtually all in Eastern Europe.
So I feel perfectly confident in any assertion that I made, and I can also quite confidently state that not many gay people would choose to live in Eastern Europe. I'm also aware, as I said in the OP, that there are many people in Eastern Europe that revile bigotry, but the reality is that at this point in time it remains a major issue in this part of the world.
Genuinely didn’t know that. Thanks for the info.You're right that the origin of the phrase had nothing to do with race, but in the early 20th century it became heavily associated with racial slurs. Certainly not the first word or phrase that has changed meaning over time. But to say now in 2019 it's not seen as offensive by some would be wrong. lots of info here
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade
Just go back to the original and call a fig a fig. Just rolls off the tongue!Genuinely didn’t know that. Thanks for the info.
Honestly, this is mostly irrelevant to the discussion.And do you know the reasons why this region is like that? It's a very complex problem, the homophobia really exists and comes mainly from a certain set of these "football" hooligans, who mostly are actually connected to proper mafia shit, at least in my country it is like that. They are ignorant Nazis that use the occasions to show their ignorance and our dumb government is too entangled into behind the curtains shenanigans so they don't want to do anything effective about them.
What people don't understand is that many of the nations in this part of the world have suffered oppression by foreign hands for centuries, so people still have a huge problem that outside forces dictate our way of life and we are still one of the poorest in the whole world, despite being members of the EU, NATO and what not. My country was conquered and enslaved by the Ottoman empire for around 500 years, we got out freedom in 1878 and our Independence in 1908. I had ancestors that were part of literal massacres, the great-grandmother of my grandfather miraculously survived the Batak massacre as a kid by being under a pile of human corpses with an elder relative - that was during our war for freedom, more specifically due to the "April uprising" of 1876. A lot of people still can't get over the fact that the West was mostly on the side of the Ottomans, whilst now they dictate a lot of our internal and foreign policies, not to mention that our fate after WW2 was decided in that famous meeting between Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt (the Yalta conference), and we were left for dead to be under the hammer of the totalitarian Soviet Union for 45 years.
It's not an excuse for bad behaviour or bigotry, but you need to understand the pain and suffering that is still on the minds of many, we've had to deal with a lot of shit in our short period of modern Independence and it takes time for people to become more accepting and tolerant. We definitely don't have the luxury and privileges of the Western civilization that colonised most of the world and used stolen resources to create their developed countries.
Hungary has a totally different history and actually was an empire in more modern times, whilst my country Bulgaria was in a completely different situation. Plus, I'm sure you know Hungary has been trying to be West oriented since the Medieval era. I'm saying there are valid reasons for people to be defensive and not accepting of the foreign interference in our lives, but it's still no excuse to radicalisation and bigotry.Honestly, this is mostly irrelevant to the discussion.
I'm Hungarian. It's not offensive to say that Central and Eastern Europe is more socially conservative than Western Europe and has more racism and homophobia. It's just a fact. Hell, our very own constitution expressly defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman - which unfortunately accurately reflects the majority stance I'm afraid.
How and why that is so doesn't really matter that much. And frankly, past wars, foreign oppression, and so on are really no excuse for homophobia. It's not "the gays" who did the oppressing. I understand Russophobes: there the historical argument is understandable.
They are not. But it is annoying at times how we in the west tell other countries, often in a condenscending manner, how to go about their lives and adapt to our values, to basically leapfrog certain stages of their development. Telling third-world countries to ban plastic comes to mind. Education is a slow ongoing process and we have seen a wonderful example in this thread of how poster was convinced by reason and logical arguments. I think name-calling never achieves anything and only strengthens peoples' mindsets. And lest we forget even Barack Obama opposed same-sex marriage in favour of "traditional" marriage as recently as 2008 based on his religious views.How and why that is so doesn't really matter that much. And frankly, past wars, foreign oppression, and so on are really no excuse for homophobia.
Oh, please. If you're somebody who's mentality can be thrown around like the wind, then you go for it, fella. Me? I am not so easy swayed by a so-called 'massive platform where thousands of people from around the world come to exchange their different views and experiences'. It's probably the reason why I have been so successful in life; so don't assume about people you know nothing about, which this whole thread has done.Yeah man, you'd have to be a right pillock to allow a massive platform where thousands of people from around the world come to exchange their different views and experiences to impact your narrow view of wider society. Who the feck needs empathy and an outward-looking mindset? A thick bastard, that's who. Why can't everybody live out their lonely, boring, cyclical existences in a vacuum devoid of any personal growth like the rest of us? Just live your lives, you know what I mean?
Well, it quite literally is. Doesn't mean it's not warranted though because abusive and derogatory behaviour needs to be called out. It should always be followed by an explanation, though. We're not talking about obvious homophobic slurs here but the more subtle variety or situations in which a person genuinely might not have had any bad intentions or just expressed themselves badly. As happened in this thread. Just branding that person homophobic isn't going to start a learning process.on a basic level, is saying something is homophobic really "name calling"?
Oh, please. If you're somebody who's mentality can be thrown around like the wind, then you go for it, fella. Me? I am not so easy swayed by a so-called 'massive platform where thousands of people from around the world come to exchange their different views and experiences'. It's probably the reason why I have been so successful in life; so don't assume about people you know nothing about, which this whole thread has done.
I disagree that pointing out a homophobic action is name calling. That infers that on some level it is derogatory. I also disagree that it's a derogatory statement. Much like calling a racist, a racist isn't derogatory.Well, it quite literally is. Doesn't mean it's not warranted though because abusive and derogatory behaviour needs to be called out. It should always be followed by an explanation, though. We're not talking about obvious homophobic slurs here but the more subtle variety or situations in which a person genuinely might not have had any bad intentions or just expressed themselves badly. As happened in this thread. Just branding that person homophobic isn't going to start a learning process.
Same with calling out Trump's racism? It's not name-calling, it's describing someone's less pleasant characteristics.Well, it quite literally is. Doesn't mean it's not warranted though because abusive and derogatory behaviour needs to be called out. It should always be followed by an explanation, though. We're not talking about obvious homophobic slurs here but the more subtle variety or situations in which a person genuinely might not have had any bad intentions or just expressed themselves badly. As happened in this thread. Just branding that person homophobic isn't going to start a learning process.
With derogatory behaviour I meant being homophobic not calling someone out who is being homophobic, i. e. name-calling can be justified.I disagree that pointing out a homophobic action is name calling. That infers that on some level it is derogatory. I also disagree that it's a derogatory statement. Much like calling a racist, a racist isn't derogatory.
Wrong about what? I doubt you have read the posts I made. I was talking about somebody changing their mind like the wind just because they got jumped on, on this forum. And if somebody can change their mind in the space on an hour, then maybe their parents need to restrict their 'interweb' access for their own well-being; as chances are in the hour that follows, they could very well be sending their year's wages to a Nigerian philanthropist who promised them a share of £1.2 Trillion by email.
Out of interest, what would it take to change your mind if not the experiences of people that are actually gay? Or is there nothing that could convince you might be wrong?
Yeah, his racism that needs to be called out for what is. But I'd be more interested in what to do with his supporters. Calling them racist and backwards and leaving it there doesn't get you very far or wins you the argument IMHO.Same with calling out Trump's racism? It's not name-calling, it's describing someone's less pleasant characteristics.
Oh, please. If you're somebody who's mentality can be thrown around like the wind, then you go for it, fella. Me? I am not so easy swayed by a so-called 'massive platform where thousands of people from around the world come to exchange their different views and experiences'. It's probably the reason why I have been so successful in life; so don't assume about people you know nothing about, which this whole thread has done.
I suspected as much - just that a friend recently got mad at me for it, so I was genuinely wondering if there was something to it.I was 100% joking mate. Thus the winking emoji.