I'm missing the fundamental point?Mate, you're missing the fundamental point here. When Jose signed there was a group of fans that said he will be meltdown in 3 years. That's his curse.
There was another that said, if the clubs executive pisses him off and undermines his expertise and authority with the players, then yes, he will. But that requires a party other than Jose Mourinho acting a certain way.
The first opinion is like superstition. It's like believing Friday the 13th is a bad luck day because you stepped in dog shit on those days, while walking through the city on your phone.
But maybe if you watched where you stepped, you might not have shit smeared all over yourself.
Jose Mourinho's difficult points were steaming piles of shit with big flashing warning signs a block away. Yet the club stepped right onto each and everyone of them. And now we're mad they were there in the first place? Then the idiot shouldn't have hired him.
My point is we have another common denominator in all of our failures of the last six seasons. Ed Woodward.I'm missing the fundamental point?
Its not a curse. Its the logical conclusion of his methods. He's a short-term manager and always has been. He's never stayed at a club longer than 2 or 3 years and he probably never will.
You can keep making excuses for Mourinho all you like but you surely have to see that when it happens over and over, in different environments, he's the common denominator.
It's not a superstition in all his jobs he has been good during the first two seasons and had the support of everyone. In all the clubs where he stayed more than 2 years, he lost the players and the board support. It works both ways, Mourinho is without a doubt an excellent head coach but you can't trust him to work effectively with others beyond short term.Mate, you're missing the fundamental point here. When Jose signed there was a group of fans that said he will be meltdown in 3 years. That's his curse.
There was another that said, if the clubs executive pisses him off and undermines his expertise and authority with the players, then yes, he will. But that requires a party other than Jose Mourinho acting a certain way.
The first opinion is like superstition. It's like believing Friday the 13th is a bad luck day because you stepped in dog shit on those days, while walking through the city on your phone.
But maybe if you watched where you stepped, you might not have shit smeared all over yourself.
Jose Mourinho's difficult points were steaming piles of shit with big flashing warning signs a block away. Yet the club stepped right onto each and everyone of them. And now we're mad they were there in the first place? Then the idiot shouldn't have hired him.
I'm not.My point is we have another common denominator in all of our failures of the last six seasons. Ed Woodward.
The most successful period of ours in that time has been under Jose..
So it's not as simple as blaming Mourinho and moving on.
Like I said above, the personality cult around Mourinho is just plain weird. It's quite bizarre to see people purposely ignoring facts to make excuses for him.You're fighting a losing battle. Some of these guys are determined to revise history on those transfers. Once you're done with one another one will pop up saying the exact same thing you just debunked
I always looked at his hiring as an opportunity to see if he might be able to under the right conditions. We'll never know because the conditions weren't right for him or any manager. This thread to me says there is still a 'what jf' factor, much the same as LVG.It's not a superstition in all his jobs he has been good during the first two seasons and had the support of everyone. In all the clubs where he stayed more than 2 years, he lost the players and the board support. It works both ways, Mourinho is without a doubt an excellent head coach but you can't trust him to work effectively with others beyond short term.
The right conditions do no exist that's where you are mistaken. Everyone will tell you that Mourinho is extremely intense, he lives football management and 100mph, when on the job he seemingly has very little balance and creates his own wear and tear, you can see it on his face and the way he generally looks, it gets worser and worser but every time that he has a bit of time off, he looks great and is charming. Now, his way of doing things also tires others, they too can't keep that rhythm forever.I always looked at his hiring as an opportunity to see if he might be able to under the right conditions. We'll never know because the conditions weren't right for him or any manager. This thread to me says there is still a 'what jf' factor, much the same as LVG.
That's a very fair and sensible assessment. Probably the best that I've read for that viewpoint. And whilst I understand it, I also don't agree with it. You're relying on a lot of what happened in the past with Jose which I call the safe bet. My view is more of a shot in the dark, hopeful of someone changing much the same way you pointed out Sir Alex changed. I thought Jose was going to come in and employ a slightly more agreeable strategy with the intent of staying at United, a club he has openly been in love with for a very long time. I really felt that between his interviews and demeanor he was setting out to do it differently. And that's where the opportunity gets cut short. He didn't get the chance to do it differently. He was handed a long contract and then handcuffed in the exact way that sets him off. For comparison, in Sir Alex's case, his relinquishing certain control was made successful because of the likes of David Gill. Ed Woodward was not the right complement for any long term Jose Mourinho stay.The right conditions do no exist that's where you are mistaken. Everyone will tell you that Mourinho is extremely intense, he lives football management and 100mph, when on the job he seemingly has very little balance and creates his own wear and tear, you can see it on his face and the way he generally looks, it gets worser and worser but every time that he has a bit of time off, he looks great and is charming. Now, his way of doing things also tires others, they too can't keep that rhythm forever.
SAF said it himself that at some point, he realized that he needed to take a step back and focus on the big picture because you can't continuously be in the eye of cyclone, it's not good for you and others. On that subject I'm not trying to lambast Mourinho but trying to objectively assess why he always ends up in the same situations with ultimately several dozens of people, it can't be the several dozens of people and it's easily explainable when you listen to what people say when everything is good.
To summarize, world class attacking players made up for his deficiencies as a coach and when those same players stop trying for him, it turns to shit...What made Mourinho's Chelsea, Inter and Madrid teams so great was that he had good forwards. Drogba, Robben, Zlatan, Eto'o, Cristiano come to mind. All he needed to do was build a good defense.
At United, all his strikers options were past their prime or still too young to be trusted.
The basic problems that his squad management lead to. Ole has had to virtually rebuild an entire first team from scratch bar maybe 4 players in De Gea, Lindleof, Martial and Pogba.Quite correct.
It is clear that Jose himself is a divisive figure. He most certainly was the most successful manager since Sir Alex Ferguson. But, despite my appreciation of his many achievements, it just didn't work out.
Nevertheless, all the hate and bile thrown at him cannot detract from the fact that the reason it did not work out was not wholly down to him. He has gone but the basic problems remain.
I wouldn't exactly refer to Lukaku or Matic as poor signings, also the squad Jose left is much better than the one he inherited.The basic problems that his squad management lead to. Ole has had to virtually rebuild an entire first team from scratch bar maybe 4 players in De Gea, Lindleof, Martial and Pogba.
When you look at the shit Mourinho wasted money on, this shouldn't be an issue. He could have quite comfortably built the rest of the team with the money he had at his disposal, but he wasted it on rubbish. Sanchez, Lukaku, Miki, Matic etc. That's four massive signings that could have seen better recruitment but he made the decision for those players and all of them have either been failures, or not suited to his game plan.
If he signs the correct players instead of those four, it takes the pressure off the likes of Rashford to have to step up and be leaders in the team.. He's 22 for fecks sake!
feck off, he fecked himself over through short term signings and piss poor player management leading to the board losing faith him because he wanted to sign players like Perisic and Willian who had no resale value and were to be signed on ridiculous fees at ridiculous wages. I'd say the Sanchez signing was the straw that broke the camels back for the Glazers and I don't blame one bit for not trusting him after that.I wouldn't exactly refer to Lukaku or Matic as poor signings, also the squad Jose left is much better than the one he inherited.
Could've been a United legend, worked wonders with the team in hindsight and was fecked over by Ed Woodward in his third summer.
Pure delusion and nonsense that. I don't even get how people believe things like this when they write them. Ole fecked up the squad and what he will leave for the next manager is gonna be far weaker than what he actually inherited.The basic problems that his squad management lead to. Ole has had to virtually rebuild an entire first team from scratch bar maybe 4 players in De Gea, Lindleof, Martial and Pogba.
When you look at the shit Mourinho wasted money on, this shouldn't be an issue. He could have quite comfortably built the rest of the team with the money he had at his disposal, but he wasted it on rubbish. Sanchez, Lukaku, Miki, Matic etc. That's four massive signings that could have seen better recruitment but he made the decision for those players and all of them have either been failures, or not suited to his game plan.
If he signs the correct players instead of those four, it takes the pressure off the likes of Rashford to have to step up and be leaders in the team.. He's 22 for fecks sake!
Who out of everybody that's left, should still be here? Im going to enjoy this because you obviously dont have a clue so the names should be interesting.Pure delusion and nonsense that. I don't even get how people believe things like this when they write them. Ole fecked up the squad and what he will leave for the next manager is gonna be far weaker than what he actually inherited.
So he sold the players and left an empty and thread thin squad that will need +250m pumbed into it to just get close to 3rd or so. Great achievement.Who out of everybody that's left, should still be here? Im going to enjoy this because you obviously dont have a clue so the names should be interesting.
I would say Herrara should still be our first team. It's not Mourinho's fault that we can't keep him as he's there when Mourinho left.Who out of everybody that's left, should still be here? Im going to enjoy this because you obviously dont have a clue so the names should be interesting.
Very good post.That's a very fair and sensible assessment. Probably the best that I've read for that viewpoint. And whilst I understand it, I also don't agree with it. You're relying on a lot of what happened in the past with Jose which I call the safe bet. My view is more of a shot in the dark, hopeful of someone changing much the same way you pointed out Sir Alex changed. I thought Jose was going to come in and employ a slightly more agreeable strategy with the intent of staying at United, a club he has openly been in love with for a very long time. I really felt that between his interviews and demeanor he was setting out to do it differently. And that's where the opportunity gets cut short. He didn't get the chance to do it differently. He was handed a long contract and then handcuffed in the exact way that sets him off. For comparison, in Sir Alex's case, his relinquishing certain control was made successful because of the likes of David Gill. Ed Woodward was not the right complement for any long term Jose Mourinho stay.
I look at this also from a different context: assume Jose was a walking time bomb just as you say. We knew what we were getting when we signed him and should have done everything to maximize his, again, expected trophy haul in the short term. As his boss, Woodward should have managed Jose better. If he felt there was a long term Future , and indeed he must have since he gave him a 6 year contract, I expected a different set of actions from Ed and the board to give them a chance at being a successful time.
So on the one hand, yes, Jose's 3 year expiration date has been the case again.
But on the flip side, if you're extending the date to 6 years in the second , then it can only be a realistic possibility if you get on hands and knees to give Jose the same amount of authority as Sir Alex had. That Jose didn't change is irrelevant to me. The question is, could a better boss have managed to get more out of Jose? That's a resounding yes. We now have a full history of failures by Ed to point out but even if you asked me six years ago I'd say the same thing: how the feck is some balding, bang average banker with no football experience going to manage one of the greatest and also most volatile managers of the last two decades?
Maybe. The fact is, at United he didn't have those great attacking players and that's basically why the project didn't work out.To summarize, world class attacking players made up for his deficiencies as a coach and when those same players stop trying for him, it turns to shit...
Thats not good coaching.
A few things, Mourinho wasn't planning for long term and said to Telefoot in October 2017 that it wouldn't be his last club because he had other ambitions. Gill had nothing to do with SAF reliquinshing any sort of power, SAF got more power with time, what SAF did was to rely on his staff a lot, delegate more. Also Gill has the same background than Woodward, neither were football men before joining United, both are chartered accountants, both have been CFO for years before becoming CEO, Woodward was Gill right hand, the same way Gill was Kenyon right hand. Also Mourinho got a one year extension with an option, not three years, he probably shouldn't have and the club probably should have planned to move on in 2019, that's on the board but that's also irrelevant to Mourinho's chronic inability to not meltdown after two seasons.That's a very fair and sensible assessment. Probably the best that I've read for that viewpoint. And whilst I understand it, I also don't agree with it. You're relying on a lot of what happened in the past with Jose which I call the safe bet. My view is more of a shot in the dark, hopeful of someone changing much the same way you pointed out Sir Alex changed. I thought Jose was going to come in and employ a slightly more agreeable strategy with the intent of staying at United, a club he has openly been in love with for a very long time. I really felt that between his interviews and demeanor he was setting out to do it differently. And that's where the opportunity gets cut short. He didn't get the chance to do it differently. He was handed a long contract and then handcuffed in the exact way that sets him off. For comparison, in Sir Alex's case, his relinquishing certain control was made successful because of the likes of David Gill. Ed Woodward was not the right complement for any long term Jose Mourinho stay.
I look at this also from a different context: assume Jose was a walking time bomb just as you say. We knew what we were getting when we signed him and should have done everything to maximize his, again, expected trophy haul in the short term. As his boss, Woodward should have managed Jose better. If he felt there was a long term Future , and indeed he must have since he gave him a 6 year contract, I expected a different set of actions from Ed and the board to give them a chance at being a successful time.
So on the one hand, yes, Jose's 3 year expiration date has been the case again.
But on the flip side, if you're extending the date to 6 years in the second , then it can only be a realistic possibility if you get on hands and knees to give Jose the same amount of authority as Sir Alex had. That Jose didn't change is irrelevant to me. The question is, could a better boss have managed to get more out of Jose? That's a resounding yes. We now have a full history of failures by Ed to point out but even if you asked me six years ago I'd say the same thing: how the feck is some balding, bang average banker with no football experience going to manage one of the greatest and also most volatile managers of the last two decades?
After reading your post, I have tried to think about those circumstances that are supposed to be linked to the club and I don't really see them, outside of the managers not being better than their direct opponents which is first and foremost a manager problem even though you could argue that the people that hired them should have known better.Jose's meltdown at United seems more coincidental with the circumstances of things which have impacted other managers, rather than absolutely and solely due to the pattern of his career.
There are things at United which prevent ANY manager from being remotely successful, but those things are here to stay whilst they bleed us dry.
Having said that, I'm sure Jose would have had a meltdown at some point irrespective of the hierarchy.
If all of that was true then I would agree with you.The basic problems that his squad management lead to. Ole has had to virtually rebuild an entire first team from scratch bar maybe 4 players in De Gea, Lindleof, Martial and Pogba.
When you look at the shit Mourinho wasted money on, this shouldn't be an issue. He could have quite comfortably built the rest of the team with the money he had at his disposal, but he wasted it on rubbish. Sanchez, Lukaku, Miki, Matic etc. That's four massive signings that could have seen better recruitment but he made the decision for those players and all of them have either been failures, or not suited to his game plan.
If he signs the correct players instead of those four, it takes the pressure off the likes of Rashford to have to step up and be leaders in the team.. He's 22 for fecks sake!
In order for Jose to win he needs to have the best team in the competition. In order your do so with us he needed to spend a further 400 million or so....something not realistic at a club which needs to make profits every year for it s owners to bleed it.If all of that was true then I would agree with you.
But it isn't. And if it was then why are we struggling with lack of midfield and attack players.
Jose is not a long term manager and he has said that he was told he needed to make an instant impact.
He signed more experienced players he felt would do that and as we know got us to 2nd place finish.
Having done that he wanted to sign players capable of taking on City and Liverpool.
But as we know, he was prevented from doing that and the rest is history.
It's not about profits because the club doesn't actually make that much profit, during the course of 5 years you would be talking about spending 300m instead of 400m. The problem is that it's simply not feasible or sustainable, not when you also increase your wage bill by 90m in three years(from 203m in 2015 to 296m in 2018), that money was spent on the playing staff.In order for Jose to win he needs to have the best team in the competition. In order your do so with us he needed to spend a further 400 million or so....something not realistic at a club which needs to make profits every year for it s owners to bleed it.
That's why it was a bad decision in first place to hire Mourinho.... not to mention that his style was getting a bit out dated
We have a quite polar view on this one...Like many when it comes to the board under SAF you are making your own little fantasy where the then much maligned Gill has now turned into some sort of football savant. Gill was a money man and had little experience in football.
Woodward is currently member of the ECA FFP strategic panel, member board of administration UEFA club competition and Member of the UEFA professional football strategy council. So yes, he has that type of standing and funnily enough they are both considered by these associations as finance experts which is why in 2010 Gill was made chairman of the finance committee. They both have the same career trajectory and came from the same background, they are bot expert in the same domain and recognize for it by other clubs and associations.We have a quite polar view on this one...
The opinion stems not from fantasy. From real life events and quite often, straight from the horses mouth.
Gill had ten years at United as the Chief Executive during which and after he was so well regarded amongst the football hierarchy that he was elected into the boards of the FA, UEFA and FIFA.
You're telling me Woodward has that kind of standing? Besides overseeing multiple failed transfer windows, poor contracts and badly managed managers, Ed also has the distinction of publicly swinging his d*ck around:
Disneyland
Can do things in the market no other club can
100 million for the world class defender
The way in which a lot of the forum were happy to see 'money-grubbing' players like Dybala not join us, the irony remains that our Chief Executive is a very tasteless man who given his chance at football has fallen flatly on his face because he epitomizes the stereotype of your egomaniac banker. Gill, despite the similar background, was not perfect but he ascended well beyond. Ed is a trainwreck. Look at our club, mate! It's a flaming disaster right now.
Ooh la la very nice for him to be appointed there indeed. Find appointments less impressive than being elected. In any case doesn't change the rest of him being a d*ckWoodward is currently member of the ECA FFP strategic panel, member board of administration UEFA club competition and Member of the UEFA professional football strategy council. So yes, he has that type of standing and funnily enough they are both considered by these associations as finance experts which is why in 2010 Gill was made chairman of the finance committee. They both have the same career trajectory and came from the same background, they are bot expert in the same domain and recognize for it by other clubs and associations.
Jose would of got rid of Pogba,Martial and Luke Shaw if he was allowed to that would of recoup x amount to continue the rebuild process.In order for Jose to win he needs to have the best team in the competition. In order your do so with us he needed to spend a further 400 million or so....something not realistic at a club which needs to make profits every year for it s owners to bleed it.
That's why it was a bad decision in first place to hire Mourinho.... not to mention that his style was getting a bit out dated
Did Mourinho have the second or best squad in the country when he won 2 trophies, finished second and reached an FA Cup final in two seasons? I don't think so...In order for Jose to win he needs to have the best team in the competition. In order your do so with us he needed to spend a further 400 million or so....something not realistic at a club which needs to make profits every year for it s owners to bleed it.
That's why it was a bad decision in first place to hire Mourinho.... not to mention that his style was getting a bit out dated
You know Perisic and Willian are STILL better than all our winger options. Also don't know why resale value is relevant, we're the supposed richest club in the world but for the past 3 summers we've spent like Arsenal/Spurs whilst Liverpool and City literally bought whoever they needed to compete.feck off, he fecked himself over through short term signings and piss poor player management leading to the board losing faith him because he wanted to sign players like Perisic and Willian who had no resale value and were to be signed on ridiculous fees at ridiculous wages. I'd say the Sanchez signing was the straw that broke the camels back for the Glazers and I don't blame one bit for not trusting him after that.
Sorry but the excuses that get rolled out for this prick are laughable. I would classify both Matic and Lukaku as piss poor signings as Lukaku was not effective in the way he had us playing and Matic was good for 3 months. Both on high wages and signed for a combined fee of 120 million and one was sold and the other is a player on the outer? Good signings my arse.
He has been elected and followed the same process that Gill did. And he may be a dick but that's irrelevant to your point about his standing in the main football organisations.Ooh la la very nice for him to be appointed there indeed. Find appointments less impressive than being elected. In any case doesn't change the rest of him being a d*ck
I don't think you need the best team in the country to finish 2nd...Did Mourinho have the second or best squad in the country when he won 2 trophies, finished second and reached an FA Cup final in two seasons? I don't think so...
The board completely nullified Jose and that's why he had his tantrum
I was replying to a post that said "In order to win, Jose Mourinho needs the best team in the competition", implying that Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp etc don't.I don't think you need the best team in the country to finish 2nd...
He had by far the best squad in the competition when he won the Europa League - especially relative to the teams that we played along the way. Almost managed to cock it up though.I was replying to a post that said "In order to win, Jose Mourinho needs the best team in the competition", implying that Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp etc don't.
Well he never had the best squad but we were still competitive and won trophies.
But the way he acted.. thats not the way to run a club.. he was undermining us every game .. i know we were crap.. but would you keep him for these reasons ..I think some people were happy to get rid of Jose so the team would be more exciting, and that Jose was just holding them back from showing their true abilities.
Jose couldn't tolerate a board who didn't want to work towards winning, and players who didn't want to work towards winning. So, with the full consent of the fans, the board and players got rid of him. Oh well, c'est la vie.
