LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools

[esmufc07]

On the contrary, I'd say it's a form of child abuse. I'd be all for banning religious studies tbh.

I am not religious at all but I do find religion interesting, and it has been such a critical part of history I don't think you could not teach it.

I would be for banning faith schools, however.

 

[Grinner]

Religion doesn't belong in schools unless it's part of a greater course that covers alternative theories.

 

[Kinsella]

On the contrary, I'd say it's a form of child abuse. I'd be all for banning religious studies tbh.

Hello Mr. Dawkins.

I am not religious at all but I do find religion interesting, and it has been such a critical part of history I don't think you could not teach it.

I would be for banning faith schools, however.

Why would you want to ban schools that deliver higher educational attainment?

 

[2 man midfield]

Hello Mr. Dawkins.

You disagree?

 

[Shamwow]

I thought it wasn't the sex part they were teaching to the younger kids but just that there are same sex relationships (to the people complaining that this would sexualise kids at too young and age.)

 

[Kinsella]

You disagree?

I do indeed. The illiberalism of it is incredible.

 

[esmufc07]

Hello Mr. Dawkins.



Why would you want to ban schools that deliver higher educational attainment?

I don't think children should be admitted to school on the basis of faith, nor do I think children should be indoctrinated with religion.

 

[2mufc0]

I thought it wasn't the sex part they were teaching to the younger kids but just that there are same sex relationships (to the people complaining that this would sexualise kids at too young and age.)

Agree with this, I think it's OK to talk about different types of families etc. But I also agree with @Raees the sexual part of things should be a no go at primary school age.

 

[2mufc0]

Funny that this argument about innocence and the like never applies with Religion. Telling a child that some people have two dads is apparently potentially harmful to the child, but telling children if they don't follow the will of a mythical figure in the sky they'll be sent to an eternity of hell and torture is just fine.

Nice rant. Don't think he made any of those arguments.

 

[Kinsella]

I don't think children should be admitted to school on the basis of faith,

If the Labour government in the 1960s had taken the decision to reform the grammar school system as opposed to abolishing it, then you'd still have a system based on merit as opposed to the selection by wealth, postcode and 'faith' that has emerged since. I do find the thought of English people feigning faith to get their kid into a good school kinda funny though.

nor do I think children should be indoctrinated with religion.

Ok, but how would you police that in the private sphere?

 

[sullydnl]

I thought it wasn't the sex part they were teaching to the younger kids but just that there are same sex relationships (to the people complaining that this would sexualise kids at too young and age.)

The program they're objecting to essentially teaches kids about the 2010 equality act, which legally protects people from discrimination in the wrokplace and wider society. The program discusses topics such as gender and gender identity, religion, sexual orientation, disability and age. Not the mechanics of sex.

The arguments of those against it extend to not wanting material that portrays same-sex relationships (e.g. a book about two male penguins that raise a chick together) in the school. Amir Ahmed, who has co-ordinated protests across seven schools despite having no children in any of them himself, said:

We are a traditional community - we have traditional family values and morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. We do not believe in homosexuality but that does not make us homophobic. [The lessons are] not about gay lesbian rights and equality. This is purely about proselytizing homosexual way of life to children. You can condition them to accept. This has been a normal way of life. And it makes the children more promiscuous as they grow older.

 

[Raees]

Funny that this argument about innocence and the like never applies with Religion. Telling a child that some people have two dads is apparently potentially harmful to the child, but telling children if they don't follow the will of a mythical figure in the sky they'll be sent to an eternity of hell and torture is just fine.

I don’t believe in the second part either but for me talking to children about sex before secondary school is just wrong. I wouldn’t want my daughter knowing about it. I saw one of the books they were trying to promote in primary schools and it had two guys going into bed together.. like I don’t see why that was considered age appropriate.

If it’s something can guys like other guys and it’s as basic as that then it’s not the end of the world by any means but I’d rather children are left to their own devices and even religious parents should stay out of indoctrinating their kids about what is right and wrong from a sexual perspective because they’re also interfering and stripping their kids of their innocence. Not to mention if that kid does end up gay, by being brought up that it is wrong can lead to a whole host of psychological issues.

They have their whole lives to know about sex and relationships why torture them with stuff they can’t fully grasp long before puberty.

 

[Eyepopper]

Teaching kids about different types of relationships = fine.

Thinking most 8/9/10 year olds aren't sexually curious or aware is pretty naive.

I'm assuming the curriculum isn't going to have 4 year olds learning the finer points of poppers and anal fisting.

 

[Ivor Ballokov]

I don’t believe in the second part either but for me talking to children about sex before secondary school is just wrong. I wouldn’t want my daughter knowing about it. I saw one of the books they were trying to promote in primary schools and it had two guys going into bed together.. like I don’t see why that was considered age appropriate.

If it’s something can guys like other guys and it’s as basic as that then it’s not the end of the world by any means but I’d rather children are left to their own devices and even religious parents should stay out of indoctrinating their kids about what is right and wrong because they’re also interfering and stripping their kids of their innocence.

They have their whole lives to know about sex and relationships why torture them with stuff they can’t fully grasp long before puberty.

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/stages-of-puberty-what-happens-to-boys-and-girls/

According to the NHS the average age to start puberty is 11 in girls and 12 in boys, it's not 'long before puberty' if this is done in year 5/6.

 

[Raees]

Teaching kids about different types of relationships = fine.

Thinking most 8/9/10 year olds aren't sexually curious or aware is pretty naive.

I'm assuming the curriculum isn't going to have 4 year olds learning the finer points of poppers and anal fisting.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that becomes the norm eventually.

Some kids will be sexually curious even at a young age, some won’t. Let them explore at their own pace at that age and let them be. Like I said if you’re for LGBT or against is besides the point - I think both sides need to back the feck off and leave young primary school kids alone.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Funny that this argument about innocence and the like never applies with Religion. Telling a child that some people have two dads is apparently potentially harmful to the child, but telling children if they don't follow the will of a mythical figure in the sky they'll be sent to an eternity of hell and torture is just fine.

Good point. Indoctrinating kids with that is horrible. My mom used to lay awake at night when she was 8, because she was scared the virgin Mary would appear to her and tell her to become a nun. That's child abuse if you ask me. But you cant say that, because you should discriminate agaijst religion.

 

[Raees]

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/stages-of-puberty-what-happens-to-boys-and-girls/

According to the NHS the average age to start puberty is 11 in girls and 12 in boys, it's not 'long before puberty' if this is done in year 5/6.

Year 6 could also work tbh but I just think with secondary school, its the opportune time for them to become more adult and aware of things like relationships and sexuality because they’re going to be surrounded by older kids every day. No point trying to keep them in a bubble by then as they’ll be exposed to various influences regardless so better to make them knowledgeable within a controlled environment. Start of year 7.

 

[Eyepopper]

I don’t believe in the second part either but for me talking to children about sex before secondary school is just wrong. I wouldn’t want my daughter knowing about it.

Mate, your daughter is going to know about sex long before she goes to secondary school... I say 'know', what I mean is she'll be well aware that there's something called 'sex' that people do, she'll probably have some idea of the mechanics a million questions and a head full of nonsense she's picked up from other kids.

I'd say providing some level of relationship/sex education to kids that age is a positive thing, particularly when the average age a kid now encounters hardcore porn for the first time is something mental like 8. Hell, there was even porn doing the rounds when I was in primary, and that was over 30 years ago, and porn was illegal!

 

[2 man midfield]

I do indeed. The illiberalism of it is incredible.

Fair enough. What's so wrong with not wanting children to be lied to and indoctrinated into a cult though?

 

[Raees]

Mate, your daughter is going to know about sex long before she goes to secondary school... I say 'know', what I mean is she'll be well aware that there's something called 'sex' that people do, she'll probably have some idea of the mechanics a million questions and a head full of nonsense she's picked up from other kids.

I'd say providing some level of relationship/sex education to kids that age is a positive thing, particularly when the average age a kid now encounters hardcore porn for the first time is something mental like 8. Hell, there was even porn doing the rounds when I was in primary, and that was over 30 years ago, and porn was illegal!

Yeah she’ll probably know people bump around in bed but not the full mechanics unless she’s exposed to porn - which might happen but that doesn’t make it right and something we should just go along with the flow with.

I’d like to know that I did everything I could to keep her protected until she’s old enough to use that info wisely not just throw her to the wolves and have her talking to me about sex explicitly at the age of 9 or 10.

 

[esmufc07]

I wouldn’t be surprised if that becomes the norm eventually.

Some kids will be sexually curious even at a young age, some won’t. Let them explore at their own pace at that age and let them be. Like I said if you’re for LGBT or against is besides the point - I think both sides need to back the feck off and leave young primary school kids alone.

The issue is you're making an issue of sex when it isn't about that. The new curriculum is literally just about teaching kids that some families aren't the typical 1 mum and 1 dad, and that it is possible to have 2 mums or 2 dads, and that this is perfectly normal and OK. Quite why people feel the need to protest outside a school and withdraw their kids from education is beyond me. And getting back to the initial point, it is nothing more than homophobia from religious zealots.

I'd get the outrage if, like @Eyepopper says, they were being taught about anal fisting, but they're not. It is literally nothing to do with sex. And I think this is where a lot of the issue has arisen because people are confusing themselves between two different aspects of the curriculum.

 

[Grinner]

What's wrong with teaching kids about sex? It's not dirty or shameful FFS. Everybody does it...except @esmufc07

 

[esmufc07]

It is also upto the schools to decided when in Primary school (4-11 in the UK), that they are taught about these relationships. It doesn't have to be done at 4, it just has to be done at some point in their early years education.

 

[esmufc07]

What's wrong with teaching kids about sex? It's not dirty or shameful FFS. Everybody does it...except @esmufc07

I did it once!

 

[Raees]

In essence though what we can see here is a massive culture clash which is what has been played out in schools.

I think you’ll find even the most liberal of Muslims, people who don’t pray etc and are even comfortable and supportive of LGBT in general (I count myself in this boat) will generally find it abhorrent that children should be taught about sex and relationships from a very young age. It’s not even the religion, it’s just a difference in belief as to how you raise your kids and I think for the West to force this upon children of all cultures is unfair as it is a sensitive issue .. people are super protective of their young children and shouldn’t be made to feel like their kids innocence is being impeded upon regardless of whether or not some of the kids will already be clued up even at age of 8 or not.

At least by secondary - the parents won’t have a leg to stand on if they’re still being over protective.

 

[George Owen]

In essence though what we can see here is a massive culture clash which is what has been played out in schools.

I think you’ll find even the most liberal of Muslims, people who don’t pray etc and are even comfortable and supportive of LGBT in general (I count myself in this boat) will generally find it abhorrent that children should be taught about sex and relationships from a very young age. It’s not even the religion, it’s just a difference in belief as to how you raise your kids and I think for the West to force this upon children of all cultures is unfair as it is a sensitive issue .. people are super protective of their young children and shouldn’t be made to feel like their kids innocence is being impeded upon regardless of whether or not some of the kids will already be clued up even at age of 8 or not.

At least by secondary - the parents won’t have a leg to stand on if they’re still being over protective.

just like anti vaccine movement...

 

[Grinner]

Don't religions teach parthenogenesis?

 

[esmufc07]

Also, this is the sort of book that would be read (starts about 4 minutes in), just to shed a bit of light on the sort of literature that would be read to school children.

 

[Raees]

The issue is you're making an issue of sex when it isn't about that. The new curriculum is literally just about teaching kids that some families aren't the typical 1 mum and 1 dad, and that it is possible to have 2 mums or 2 dads, and that this is perfectly normal and OK. Quite why people feel the need to protest outside a school and withdraw their kids from education is beyond me. And getting back to the initial point, it is nothing more than homophobia from religious zealots.

I'd get the outrage if, like @Eyepopper says, they were being taught about anal fisting, but they're not. It is literally nothing to do with sex. And I think this is where a lot of the issue has arisen because people are confusing themselves between two different aspects of the curriculum.

No doubt majority of those people protesting are homophobic. Concur completely.

But if someone like myself who isn’t homophobic and has gay people in my family and yet still feel uncomfortable about my young child being forced to learn about something which they naturally haven’t been curious about to consider then I deserve to have my opinion acted upon as it concerns the well-being of my child. Especially as some of the literature produced had some pictures of people getting into bed together. That can definitely confuse a child.

If she’s aged 7 and comes up to me and asks, I’ll answer it but if she hasn’t even thought about it - who force it on her.

 

[Kinsella]

Fair enough. What's so wrong with not wanting children to be lied to and indoctrinated into a cult though?

Leaving aside whether you believe that God is a lie or not; or that each and every religion is a cult, you seem to be proceeding on premise that religious studies is taught in an evangelical manner and not in an educational one, with perhaps some visiting priest/pastor (or iman) coming in and proselytising to the kids.

 

[esmufc07]

No doubt majority of those people protesting are homophobic. Concur completely.

But if someone like myself who isn’t homophobic and has gay people in my family and yet still feel uncomfortable about my young child being forced to learn about something which they naturally haven’t been curious about to consider then I deserve to have my opinion acted upon as it concerns the well-being of my child. Especially as some of the literature produced had some pictures of people getting into bed together. That can definitely confuse a child.

If she’s aged 7 and comes up to me and asks, I’ll answer it but if she hasn’t even thought about it - who force it on her.

No, you don't. You have the right to perhaps raise your concern to your school or MP, but your opinion most definitely doesn't have to be acted upon.

 

[Eyepopper]

Yeah she’ll probably know people bump around in bed but not the full mechanics unless she’s exposed to porn - which might happen but that doesn’t make it right and something we should just go along with the flow with.

I’d like to know that I did everything I could to keep her protected until she’s old enough to use that info wisely not just throw her to the wolves and have her talking to me about sex explicitly at the age of 9 or 10.

I get it, i've a daughter too (she's only one so its a few years down the track for me), and I totally understand the wish to protect them for as long as possible but I think there's a fine line between protecting them and, what I'd see as throwing them to the wolves, leaving them confused or ill informed about stuff they are exposed to.

And they ARE exposed to it. Only today they were talking about this stuff on the radio and there was a story of a 14 year old girl sending nudes to half the boys in her year.

I'm not saying we should be sitting 8 year olds down and opening up pornhub but I do think teaching the basics of relationships, love is a good idea.

Starting to teach them at second level is too late, I think. By the time I was in my early teens I thought I knew it all already.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

a head full of nonsense she's picked up from other kids

Indeed. Even as late as the fifth grade one of my class mates insisted that the bubbles in your urine were sperm and that you had to pee in girls to get them pregnant.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

No doubt majority of those people protesting are homophobic. Concur completely.

But if someone like myself who isn’t homophobic and has gay people in my family and yet still feel uncomfortable about my young child being forced to learn about something which they naturally haven’t been curious about to consider then I deserve to have my opinion acted upon as it concerns the well-being of my child. Especially as some of the literature produced had some pictures of people getting into bed together. That can definitely confuse a child.

If she’s aged 7 and comes up to me and asks, I’ll answer it but if she hasn’t even thought about it - who force it on her.

Education isn't just about your child, though.

As for the bolded part, do you and your missus sleep in separate bedrooms? How would any kid be confused by that?

 

[Eyepopper]

Indeed. Even as late as the fifth grade one of my class mates insisted that the bubbles in your urine were sperm and that you had to pee in girls to get them pregnant.

Either my wife's an absolute pervert and has been lying to me for years, or thats exactly how you get a girl pregnant!

 

[Raees]

No, you don't. You have the right to perhaps raise your concern to your school or MP, but your opinion most definitely doesn't have to be acted upon.

What’s the point of raising concern when it will fall on deaf ears? Hence children will just be pulled from lessons.

 

[Grinner]

No doubt majority of those people protesting are homophobic. Concur completely.

But if someone like myself who isn’t homophobic and has gay people in my family and yet still feel uncomfortable about my young child being forced to learn about something which they naturally haven’t been curious about to consider then I deserve to have my opinion acted upon as it concerns the well-being of my child. Especially as some of the literature produced had some pictures of people getting into bed together. That can definitely confuse a child.

If she’s aged 7 and comes up to me and asks, I’ll answer it but if she hasn’t even thought about it - who force it on her.

What terrible thing will happen if she is taught this?

 

[Kinsella]

The issue is you're making an issue of sex when it isn't about that. The new curriculum is literally just about teaching kids that some families aren't the typical 1 mum and 1 dad, and that it is possible to have 2 mums or 2 dads, and that this is perfectly normal and OK. Quite why people feel the need to protest outside a school and withdraw their kids from education is beyond me. And getting back to the initial point, it is nothing more than homophobia from religious zealots.

I mostly agree with you but I do think there's going to be a backlash at some point against the whole gender and gender identity quotient, that sullydnl mentioned above.

That aside it'll be interesting to watch how this particular cultural clash develops because Islam itself is very strong and largely unrepentant.

 

[esmufc07]

What’s the point of raising concern when it will fall on deaf ears? Hence children will just be pulled from lessons.

Because it isn't upto you to decide which parts of the curriculum your child learns, the only exception (as far as I'm aware) is sex education, which you are allowed to withdraw your child from.

Otherwise where would it stop? What if you didn't want your child learning certain aspects of History? Or you didn't want your child learning about other religions? Should you be able to pick and choose which lessons your child attends?

 

[2 man midfield]

Leaving aside whether you believe that God is a lie or not; or that each and every religion is a cult, you seem to be proceeding on premise that religious studies is taught in an evangelical manner and not in an educational one, with perhaps some visiting priest/pastor (or iman) coming in and proselytising to the kids.

I was talking more about raising your children to believe in religion as per my original post, not necessarily about the teaching of it in schools as such. I think it's certainly an interesting topic, the effects of which have been felt throughout history on things such as science, medicine etc. But that's where it should be taught, imo - history class. Religion and history are naturally intertwined, and delving into the effect religion had on the development of humankind is a far more useful thing for kids to be learning than simply what the Buddhists are up to, for instance.