2019/20 Rivals - Spurs | Bergwijn out for the remainder of the season

[SquishyMcSquish]

Really good watch!


Thoughts? @InLevyITrust @balaks @SquishyMcSquish @GlastonSpur x

On a train with dodgy WiFi at the mo but when I get back I’ll give it a watch. From the comments on here I think I’ll probably agree with it.

Poch era has just gone a bit stale. And imo the blame for that lies partly with the board, but partly with the man himself too. But despite that he’s still clearly a great coach and I’d back him to do well if/when he leaves the club.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I will consider Lo Celso more of an attacking mid.

I was referring to the likes of Dier, Winks & Sissoko. Yes I don't rate three of them as good enough for rebuilding process into success even though they are international footballer. Winks might have a hope but still can't see his potential. Ndombele is the only positive in your midfield which I did mention "apart from him".

Winks is great. Extremely mobile, keeps the ball moving and offers great work rate, we’ve seen his ability at places like the Nou Camp and the Bernabau. Currently struggling in our mess of a midfield setup but I really rate him, never going to be a world class midfielder but I do think he could hit Carrick level. Very underrated on here because he’s not flashy, but for England the other night you could see the difference a player with his skill set can make for a team.


Dier needs replacing, 100%. But if we consider Lo Celso as an AM then that’s all I think we require. Winks and Ndombele with a competent defensive midfielder doing donkey work is a very decent midfield, so from that perspective I’d say that area needs work but a mess? I don’t think so. Under current management yes because nobody is being played to their strengths.

Sissoko is a good squad player. Mobile, opens up space with his runs, gives everything for the team and physically is so hard to deal with. He shouldn’t be starting for us (and hopefully won’t be by the end of the season) but I’m happy with him in the squad. Just don’t bother shooting, ever.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Winks is great. Extremely mobile, keeps the ball moving and offers great work rate, we’ve seen his ability at places like the Nou Camp and the Bernabau. Currently struggling in our mess of a midfield setup but I really rate him, never going to be a world class midfielder but I do think he could hit Carrick level. Very underrated on here because he’s not flashy, but for England the other night you could see the difference a player with his skill set can make for a team.

Dier needs replacing, 100%. But if we consider Lo Celso as an AM then that’s all I think we require. Winks and Ndombele with a competent defensive midfielder doing donkey work is a very decent midfield, so from that perspective I’d say that area needs work but a mess? I don’t think so. Under current management yes because nobody is being played to their strengths.

Sissoko is a good squad player. Mobile, opens up space with his runs, gives everything for the team and physically is so hard to deal with. He shouldn’t be starting for us (and hopefully won’t be by the end of the season) but I’m happy with him in the squad. Just don’t bother shooting, ever.

Sorry but No.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Sorry but No.

All about opinions. From my end I’ve seen enough of him, especially on big occasions, to believe there is a real player there. Happy to accept this may just be fan/youth player bias and don’t expect rival fans to feel the same way. Though I do think he generally gets a hard deal on here.

He had a lot of injuries problems which have stopped him kicking on imo. And now this season our midfield is so dysfunctional that players are getting lost pretty regularly. Not to say he doesn’t have bad games, against Bayern he was horrendous personally, but I do think it’s almost impossible to shine in our current midfield setup. Especially for a player still learning his craft.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

He was our best player in the CL final too, the best midfielder on the pitch in fact.

Baffling he got subbed.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

All about opinions. From my end I’ve seen enough of him, especially on big occasions, to believe there is a real player there. Happy to accept this may just be fan/youth player bias and don’t expect rival fans to feel the same way. Though I do think he generally gets a hard deal on here.

He had a lot of injuries problems which have stopped him kicking on imo. And now this season our midfield is so dysfunctional that players are getting lost pretty regularly. Not to say he doesn’t have bad games, against Bayern he was horrendous personally, but I do think it’s almost impossible to shine in our current midfield setup. Especially for a player still learning his craft.

Either Carrick is being underrated here or Winks is too overrated.

 

[FootyGirl88]

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[BobbyManc]

Dier needs replacing, 100%.

Do you think he could have a future as a CB? I've never been convinced by him in midfield, but I have always thought he could have a decent career in defence. If he'd committed himself to playing there earlier on I reckon he'd be having a better career than he is currently.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Do you think he could have a future as a CB? I've never been convinced by him in midfield, but I have always thought he could have a decent career in defence. If he'd committed himself to playing there earlier on I reckon he'd be having a better career than he is currently.

He doesn't like playing as a CB.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Either Carrick is being underrated here or Winks is too overrated.

How much have you actually seen of Winks? Because I rate Carrick very highly (not ever as a world class midfielder but certainly the tier below) but I don't think that level is unattainable for Winks if he fulfils his potential.

He's put in fantastic performances in multiple huge games for us. I'm a big fan.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Do you think he could have a future as a CB? I've never been convinced by him in midfield, but I have always thought he could have a decent career in defence. If he'd committed himself to playing there earlier on I reckon he'd be having a better career than he is currently.

He's too slow to be a great CB, and he's also clumsy so when he makes errors at DM at least you know he's not the last man. I do think he's a better cb than a cdm but that's not saying much.

Not really a good player in either position, tbh.

 

[FootyGirl88]

How much have you actually seen of Winks? Because I rate Carrick very highly (not ever as a world class midfielder but certainly the tier below) but I don't think that level is unattainable for Winks if he fulfils his potential.

He's put in fantastic performances in multiple huge games for us. I'm a big fan.

Winks is good, his performance at the Bernabeu was his best performance to date.

 

[FrankDrebin]

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Tottenham: All or Nothing.
Great timing.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Winks is good, his performance at the Bernabeu was his best performance to date.

He's so hard working and mobile, I love him. He doesn't shy from the ball at all which is so good to see in a young midfielder.

Yes, he gets things wrongs and I do think he has to work to do physically perhaps, but all the attributes are there for him to be the kind of player who keeps a game ticking over and constantly offers a passing option for teammates. These kind of players often go under the radar and I think it's the same with him.

For me he's the kind of player that managers absolutely love. Intelligent and industrious. The only thing that I think will potentially hold him up is injury concerns, otherwise I'm confident he will be a really important player for us going forward.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

How much have you actually seen of Winks? Because I rate Carrick very highly (not ever as a world class midfielder but certainly the tier below) but I don't think that level is unattainable for Winks if he fulfils his potential.

He's put in fantastic performances in multiple huge games for us. I'm a big fan.

I still view him lower than Henderson's level in term potential.

I have watched Winks plenty of games. How much you asked? Why would I count how many games I watched Spurs, that's very silly question.

Carrick on the other hand has spent years of his career playing next to the likes of Anderson, 38 yo Giggs, Cleverley, Phil Jones and he's still delivering performance, winning matches, & trophies.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I still view him lower than Henderson's level in term potential.

I have watched Winks plenty of games. How much you asked? Why would I count how many games I watched Spurs, that's very silly question.

Carrick on the other hand has spent years of his career playing next to the likes of Anderson, 38 yo Giggs, Cleverley, Phil Jones and he's still delivering performance, winning matches, & trophies.

Ok then we're so far apart in terms of what he can become. He's already playing in the England midfield next to Henderson and looking the better player, but his potential is less than Henderson's prime? How?

Because it's pretty common that someone sees a player a handful of times and passes judgement. Winks is very underrated by opposition fans IMO because even his good games go completely under the radar. He's the kind of player that fans of a club/coaches adore, but otherwise he kind of gets ignored.

Carrick wouldn't be winning trophies with this Spurs team either. And I don't think Winks is at that level (or anywhere near) YET, but I do think a 23 year old midfielder in that role has tons of scope to improve. Honestly I just think it's a tad odd that you're totally dismissing that idea as if we're talking about Carrick as some scholes/xavi level player. He was a really good midfielder but not a generational player and having watched both play for Spurs I don't see that as a level Winks is incapable of reaching.

A lot obviously has to go right for that, it's far from a guarantee.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Ok then we're so far apart in terms of what he can become. He's already playing in the England midfield next to Henderson and looking the better player, but his potential is less than Henderson's prime? How?

Hmm, so why is playing next to Henderson means he’s the better player? How? No logic

Because it's pretty common that someone sees a player a handful of times and passes judgement. Winks is very underrated by opposition fans IMO because even his good games go completely under the radar. He's the kind of player that fans of a club/coaches adore, but otherwise he kind of gets ignored.

You said ’’all about opinion”, and yet you can’t accept my opinion just because it’s different to yours.

Carrick wouldn't be winning trophies with this Spurs team either. And I don't think Winks is at that level (or anywhere near) YET, but I do think a 23 year old midfielder in that role has tons of scope to improve. Honestly I just think it's a tad odd that you're totally dismissing that idea as if we're talking about Carrick as some scholes/xavi level player. He was a really good midfielder but not a generational player and having watched both play for Spurs I don't see that as a level Winks is incapable of reaching.

A lot obviously has to go right for that, it's far from a guarantee.

You only said that because that’s what you believe. Convince me even more that Carrick is still very underrated while Winks is overrated by you. The fact is that he played in midfield 2 alongside of Anderson, Cleverley, Phil Jones & 38 yo Giggs and still deliver trophies, winning matches & performance.

You are making an assumption regarding Scholes & Xavi level. It’s very lame BS. Just because I rate Carrick as top midfielder level, doesn’t mean I said he’s in the world best level.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Hmm, so why is playing next to Henderson means he’s the better player? How? No logic



You said ’’all about opinion”, and yet you can’t accept my opinion just because it’s different to yours.



You only said that because that’s what you believe. Convince me even more that Carrick is still very underrated while Winks is overrated by you. The fact is that he played in midfield 2 alongside of Anderson, Cleverley, Phil Jones & 38 yo Giggs and still deliver trophies, winning matches & performance.

You are making an assumption regarding Scholes & Xavi level. It’s very lame BS. Just because I rate Carrick as top midfielder level, doesn’t mean I said he’s in the world best level.

I said he looked better than Henderson. Which he regularly does for England, and I don't think Henderson would look better for us either, and I actually rate him reasonably highly. The idea that what Henderson is doing now is the absolute peak for a 23 year old winks is, in my view, laughable.

I can accept it. I've said multiple times it's purely down to personal opinion, but that I think you're wrong.

That's fine. He played in title winning teams under arguably the best manager of all time, too. You're doing the classic mistake of acting like Carrick won those trophies single handedly, he wouldn't have done so if the setup wasn't right for him.

Didn't make any assumptions at all. I said quite clearly that I think you're being way too rash in completely dismissing the notion that Winks could reach Carrick's level. The way you're reacting to that opinion is like I'm comparing Winks to the likes of Xavi, rather than merely a very good midfielder. It's not some outlandish comparison at all.

Anyway, I'll leave it there. You don't think he can be as good as Carrick, that's fine and that view isn't going to change because of anything I say. Like I've said multiple times, I'm a fan of his and I don't expect you or anyone else to feel the same way.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I said he looked better than Henderson. Which he regularly does for England, and I don't think Henderson would look better for us either, and I actually rate him reasonably highly. The idea that what Henderson is doing now is the absolute peak for a 23 year old winks is, in my view, laughable.

Again, that’s back to my question. How is he looking the better player than Henderson now just because he played next to Henderson?

Regularly? Henderson played in both Czech & Bulgaria game while Winks played in Bulgaria game only.

Regarding to Henderson would look better or no in Spurs team it’s not really my question and I have already told you that I don’t rate Winks to be type of player who can be built the midfield around to be success. And I don’t see him as the water carrier to support the top player & world class player next to him.

I can accept it. I've said multiple times it's purely down to personal opinion, but that I think you're wrong.

There is no such a thing call “I can accept’’ if you think it’s a laughable.

That's fine. He played in title winning teams under arguably the best manager of all time, too. You're doing the classic mistake of acting like Carrick won those trophies single handedly, he wouldn't have done so if the setup wasn't right for him.

Didn't make any assumptions at all. I said quite clearly that I think you're being way too rash in completely dismissing the notion that Winks could reach Carrick's level. The way you're reacting to that opinion is like I'm comparing Winks to the likes of Xavi, rather than merely a very good midfielder. It's not some outlandish comparison at all.

Anyway, I'll leave it there. You don't think he can be as good as Carrick, that's fine and that view isn't going to change because of anything I say. Like I've said multiple times, I'm a fan of his and I don't expect you or anyone else to feel the same way.

I have just said he played next to Anderson, Cleverley, Phil Jones & 38 yo Giggs.

You know what they say, a top player can make a player around him looks better. No matter how good Sir Alex is, you can’t expect the man to win the league without at least 1 top player in each position defense, midfield & forward.

What did I tell in my previous post in my last sentence? It seems, in your definition, you don’t have definition of top player and you think that as the same as world class.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Again, that’s back to my question. How is he looking the better player than Henderson now just because he played next to Henderson?

Regularly? Henderson played in both Czech & Bulgaria game while Winks played in Bulgaria game only.

Regarding to Henderson would look better or no in Spurs team it’s not really my question and I have already told you that I don’t rate Winks to be type of player who can be built the midfield around to be success. And I don’t see him as the water carrier to support the top player next to him.



There is no such a thing call “I can accept’’ if you think it’s a laughable.



I have just said he played next to Anderson, Cleverley, Phil Jones & 38 yo Giggs.

You know what they say, a top player can make a player around him looks better. No matter how good Sir Alex is, you can’t expect the man to win the league without at least 1 top player in each position defense, midfield & forward.

What did I tell in my previous post in my last sentence? It seems, in your definition, you don’t have definition of top player and you think that as the same as world class.

This conversation is going nowhere, it's pointless. You don't rate Winks .. fine, there's really feck all else for me to say.

What I found laughable is your OTT reaction to me saying I think he can get to Carrick's level. You made out it was a ridiculous opinion, which I don't think is fair at all, and I saw plenty of both in a Spurs shirt.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

This conversation is going nowhere, it's pointless. You don't rate Winks .. fine, there's really feck all else for me to say.

What I found laughable is your OTT reaction to me saying I think he can get to Carrick's level. You made out it was a ridiculous opinion, which I don't think is fair at all, and I saw plenty of both in a Spurs shirt.

I think it's fair. I don't even call him a world class midfielder just because I rate him as a top midfielder. This is the fact not some BS or fake story:

Carrick is one of midfielder that Sir Alex has built his midfield around for his winning team ever since 2010/2011 season when Scholes wasn't able to play week in week out anymore. The guy has spent some of his career playing alongside the likes of Anderson, Cleverley & Phil Jones in full season and make people thought at that time they were good player just because we win trophies & games. The player himself has received a lot of praises from top & world class manager & player such as Wenger, Pep, Xavi & Xabi Alonso.

Your comparison with Winks is off the chart. I have yet seen him to have the same potential to reach that level. Best comparison you could use should be Henderson.

 

[Cheech Wizard]

I’m glad Klopp told amazon to do one when they offered to film us last year. It worked for City in their year (didn’t watch it) but most of these team docuseries I’ve found are really telling of the clubs current situation. The Sunderland one was hilarious and awful in terms of how the management, the players and how their fans came across.

Ours years ago with Rodgers was just plain embarrassing and catered for the American audience when we were at our lowest.

If I was a spurs fan I’d hate this now , just seems a set up for further ridicule when it all goes wrong. Can’t see pochettino being happy with a camera crew following him around grounds and changing rooms every week.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I think it's fair. I don't even call him a world class midfielder just because I rate him as a top midfielder. This is the fact not some BS or fake story:

Carrick is one of midfielder that Sir Alex has built his midfield around for his winning team ever since 2010/2011 season when Scholes wasn't able to play week in week out anymore. The guy has spent some of his career playing alongside the likes of Anderson, Cleverley & Phil Jones in full season and make people thought at that time they were good player just because we win trophies & games. The player himself has received a lot of praises from top & world class manager & player such as Wenger, Pep, Xavi & Xabi Alonso.

Your comparison with Winks is off the chart. I have yet seen him to have the same potential to reach that level. Best comparison you could use should be Henderson.

I've literally said that Carrick is the best Winks could reach potential wise. I rate Winks highly. Saying that a player I rate highly might be able to reach Carrick's level implies I rate Carrick, no? The issue is clearly you don't rate Winks as highly as you do. I think you're completely wrong about him.. that's just an opinion. The issue isn't me underrating Carrick, I think he was a very, very good player in his prime.

The idea that the best Winks could possibly get is the Henderson of now is, frankly, bizarre to me. They're completely different players and honestly I already prefer Winks as a midfielder in many respects, Henderson is a fantastic presser and great for Liverpool but I certainly wouldn't swap the two, even if Winks never advanced from this level.

And again, it's only 'off the chart' if you don't rate Winks .. which you don't. Which isn't going to change because I've said he's a good player, clearly. And I'm also not comparing Carrick at his best to current Winks which would be silly, I'm saying in 3 or 4 seasons I do believe that if things go right for him, he can be at that level. This isn't as outlandish a claim as you're making out.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

If I was a spurs fan I’d hate this now , just seems a set up for further ridicule when it all goes wrong. Can’t see pochettino being happy with a camera crew following him around grounds and changing rooms every week.

I'd like to think that there's no way the whole thing would've been OK'ed unless Pochettino said he was cool with it. These players/managers are used to high level media scrunity and after a little while I'm sure they pretty much forget the cameras are there.

It's a bit shit that it's happening when everything is going tits up, and may well lead to further ridicule, but I don't think it's causing any issues with the team.

 

[Castia]

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Wow that could be incredible viewing, I bet Amazon can't believe their luck.

 

[GlastonSpur]

… If I was a spurs fan I’d hate this now , just seems a set up for further ridicule when it all goes wrong. …

You mean IF it all goes wrong.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

You mean IF it all goes wrong.

Ah an optimist as always.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Ah an optimist as always.

Borne of experience from several past summers/early seasons when the dire Caf predictions about Spurs have eventually turned to dust

 

[awop]

Wow that could be incredible viewing, I bet Amazon can't believe their luck.

Chelsea would have been way better to watch, Lampard arriving, the transfer ban, young players getting time etc... Nothing interesting about Spurs season, they will get even more abuse.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I've literally said that Carrick is the best Winks could reach potential wise. I rate Winks highly. Saying that a player I rate highly might be able to reach Carrick's level implies I rate Carrick, no? The issue is clearly you don't rate Winks as highly as you do. I think you're completely wrong about him.. that's just an opinion. The issue isn't me underrating Carrick, I think he was a very, very good player in his prime.

The idea that the best Winks could possibly get is the Henderson of now is, frankly, bizarre to me. They're completely different players and honestly I already prefer Winks as a midfielder in many respects, Henderson is a fantastic presser and great for Liverpool but I certainly wouldn't swap the two, even if Winks never advanced from this level.

And again, it's only 'off the chart' if you don't rate Winks .. which you don't. Which isn't going to change because I've said he's a good player, clearly. And I'm also not comparing Carrick at his best to current Winks which would be silly, I'm saying in 3 or 4 seasons I do believe that if things go right for him, he can be at that level. This isn't as outlandish a claim as you're making out.

You said “fine, there's really feck all else for me to say.” and you are still on and on. Unbelievable.

I’m not talking about their football style. I’m talking about the level of his football whether he will be bad, average, decent/good, top class & world class. Henderson is at decent/good level footballer while Carrick is a top footballer. It’s absolutely not bizarre when you read my previous post regarding Carrick. However, Winks as a comparison is absolutely bizarre.

However, speaking of “Winks to be completely different player to Henderson” It’s funny that you are keep mentioning Winks is hard worker & mobile but it’s completely opposite to Carrick who is not mobile and prefer to be less mobile and relies on his positioning in reading the game.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

You said “fine, there's really feck all else for me to say.” and you are still on and on. Unbelievable.

I’m not talking about their football style. I’m talking about the level of his football whether he will be bad, average, decent/good, top class & world class. Henderson is at decent/good level footballer while Carrick is a top footballer. It’s absolutely not bizarre when you read my previous post regarding Carrick. However, Winks as a comparison is absolutely bizarre.

However, speaking of “Winks to be completely different player to Henderson” It’s funny that you are keep mentioning Winks is hard worker & mobile but it’s completely opposite to Carrick who is not mobile and prefer to be less mobile and relies on his positioning in reading the game.

What's unbelievable is how upset/put out you are by a completely nothing comparison. Why does it seem to bother you this much that I think he can reach that level? Why do you care? You're obviously pretty pissed off about it. I watch Winks week in week out and have for years and believe I see a player with that potential. You're just being completely dismissive of that viewpoint, which is fine except you continually insist on acting like it's some absurd view. Carrick was a top player but he wasn't some mega talent where it's impossible to imagine somebody like Winks could reach his level. You know somebody has ran out of reasonable arguments when they start citing trophies an individual player won as if he personally as a one man team managed it. I've likely seen far more of Winks than you have, and plenty of Carrick at a younger age when he was at Spurs, and I don't see some huge natural talent gap between the two. Sorry that this bothers you so much.

And stylistically they're different, but they played similar roles in terms of dictating tempo and from a similar position on the pitch, basically both deep lying playmakers merely with stylistic differences. Henderson is a box to box midfielder aside from the few times he's been used in a deeper role, where he hasn't been remotely effective because that isn't his game. Winks and Carrick are much more similar than Winks and Henderson, in terms of their approach.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

What's unbelievable is how upset/put out you are by a completely nothing comparison. Why does it seem to bother you this much that I think he can reach that level? Why do you care? You're obviously pretty pissed off about it. I watch Winks week in week out and have for years and believe I see a player with that potential. You're just being completely dismissive of that viewpoint, which is fine except you continually insist on acting like it's some absurd view.

You are joking right?

You stated your final conclusion of the discussion and so I replied with my own conclusion. The one who upset & bother about it so much is you. I don’t rate Winks and yet you bother to keep going on and on. Just read my post & your post, and see how much you are typing and dragging the conversation to a long conversation while I’m making it simple that I don’t rate Winks.

Carrick was a top player but he wasn't some mega talent where it's impossible to imagine somebody like Winks could reach his level.

You know somebody has ran out of reasonable arguments when they start citing trophies an individual player won as if he personally as a one man team managed it. I've likely seen far more of Winks than you have, and plenty of Carrick at a younger age when he was at Spurs, and I don't see some huge natural talent gap between the two. Sorry that this bothers you so much.

Such a nonsense. You know what, It does bother me now not because of the comparison but because you are talking nonsense that I didn’t say. You know somebody has ran out of reasonable argument when they just spoke totally BS & failed to read people post completely.

I stated of how Sir Alex built his midfield based on Carrick since 2010/2011 season. I stated that he’s been playing alongside such an average midfielder like Cleverley, Anderson & Phil Jones in full season and still deliver, I stated how much praises he got from top & world class manager & player such as Pep, Alonso, Xavi, Wenger & etc. I have stated he’s not a word class or whatever you wanna call it as mega level.

Speaking about you are watching Winks week in week out. I have watched Carrick week in week out as well. I know what the men has became & how influence & underrated he was. While you are just talking about your own rated potential that doesn’t guarantee & doesn’t show anything to prove he has it. I could say the same thing but at least I had a decent proof better than just talk that Anderson won golden boy award when he was teen, played lot of games with us when he was very young even in important games summarised his potential was higher than Carrick.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

You are joking right?

You stated your final conclusion of the discussion and so I replied with my own conclusion. The one who upset & bother about it so much is you. I don’t rate Winks and yet you bother to keep going on and on. Just read my post & your post, and see how much you are typing and dragging the conversation to a long conversation while I’m making it simple that I don’t rate Winks.



Such a nonsense. You know what, It does bother me now not because of the comparison but because you are talking nonsense that I didn’t say. You know somebody has ran out of reasonable argument when they just spoke totally BS & failed to read people post completely.

I stated of how Sir Alex built his midfield based on Carrick since 2010/2011 season. I stated that he’s been playing alongside such an average midfielder like Cleverley, Anderson & Phil Jones in full season and still deliver, I stated how much praises he got from top & world class manager & player such as Pep, Alonso, Xavi, Wenger & etc. I have stated he’s not a word class or whatever you wanna call it as mega level.

Speaking about you are watching Winks week in week out. I have watched Carrick week in week out as well. I know what the men has became & how influence & underrated he was. While you are just talking about your own rated potential that doesn’t guarantee & doesn’t show anything to prove he has it. I could say the same thing but at least I had a decent proof better than just talk that Anderson won golden boy award when he was teen, played lot of games with us when he was very young even in important games summarised his potential was higher than Carrick.

No you're not. This whole thing is because I dared to suggest he could be as good as Carrick.

A few posts back you absolutely starting listing off the fact Carrick has won loads of trophies as if it was relevant to an individuals level. But whatever, deny it now I guess.

He was a good player. I've said as much multiple times and the fact I used him as a bar should make that pretty clear.

Your last paragraph is pretty incoherent. 'I know what the men has became?'. And I don't really get your point overall .. since I'm not claiming Winks is guaranteed to get to that level, or even anything like that. Players don't always fulfil promise, Winks might not fulfil his, but from my perspective he has the skillset to reach a Carrick level. That's my opinion.


Oh, and I'm not the first to make Carrick comparisons, nor does it just come from Spurs fans: https://talksport.com/football/4824...harry-winks-michael-carrick-chelsea-joe-cole/, https://tbrfootball.com/harry-winks-is-a-new-version-of-michael-carrick-at-tottenham/, https://thisisfutbol.com/2019/01/blogs/carrick-comparison-does-not-flatter-winks/, https://www.footballinsider247.com/...purs-star-he-compares-to-five-time-pl-winner/

Basically, just because you don't rate Winks doesn't really mean anything to me. It doesn't make what I originally said wrong, nor does it justify your OTT reaction to the claim. There's definitely comparisons to be made there, and plenty of people in football who feel the same way about him as a player, people who ought to know about these things. If you don't rate the player that highly a simple 'don't think that'll happen personally' would suffice rather than totally dismissing it and acting like I've compared him to an all time great.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

No you're not. This whole thing is because I dared to suggest he could be as good as Carrick.

And I replied with “sorry but no” a simple reply that you couldn’t accept it & you are still on and on with it by dragging the conversation longer.

A few posts back you absolutely starting listing off the fact Carrick has won loads of trophies as if it was relevant to an individuals level. But whatever, deny it now I guess.

Where? Quoted it for me don’t just talk BS. I can see that you missed the whole sentence.

He was a good player. I've said as much multiple times and the fact I used him as a bar should make that pretty clear.

Your last paragraph is pretty incoherent. 'I know what the men has became?'. And I don't really get your point overall .. since I'm not claiming Winks is guaranteed to get to that level, or even anything like that. Players don't always fulfil promise, Winks might not fulfil his, but from my perspective he has the skillset to reach a Carrick level. That's my opinion.


Oh, and I'm not the first to make Carrick comparisons, nor does it just come from Spurs fans: https://talksport.com/football/4824...harry-winks-michael-carrick-chelsea-joe-cole/, https://tbrfootball.com/harry-winks-is-a-new-version-of-michael-carrick-at-tottenham/, https://thisisfutbol.com/2019/01/blogs/carrick-comparison-does-not-flatter-winks/, https://www.footballinsider247.com/...purs-star-he-compares-to-five-time-pl-winner/

Basically, just because you don't rate Winks doesn't really mean anything to me. It doesn't make what I originally said wrong, nor does it justify your OTT reaction to the claim. There's definitely comparisons to be made there, and plenty of people in football who feel the same way about him as a player, people who ought to know about these things. If you don't rate the player that highly a simple 'don't think that'll happen personally' would suffice rather than totally dismissing it and acting like I've compared him to an all time great.

My point is that I don’t rate Winks to even be on Carrick’s level. Carrick is a top midfielder. A top midfield & world class midfielder are type of midfielder you can build your midfield around which what Sir Alex has done and I don’t see it in Winks. Sorry but no, a simple word but you couldn’t understand.

I have stated this. Either Carrick is very underrated or Winks is overrated which I can see it both here. Joe Cole never say his potential to be Carrick. He’s only saying that he can be like Carrick in term of being player’s player. Carrick was indeed player’s player around Scholes in midfield not the case when playing next to Anderson, Cleverley & Phil Jones.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

And I replied with “sorry but no” a simple reply that you couldn’t accept it & you are still on and on with it by dragging the conversation longer.



Where? Quoted it for me don’t just talk BS. I can see that you missed the whole sentence.



My point is that I don’t rate Winks to even be on Carrick’s level. Carrick is a top midfielder. A top midfield & world class midfielder are type of midfielder you can build your midfield around which what Sir Alex has done and I don’t see it in Winks. Sorry but no, a simple word but you couldn’t understand.

I have stated this. Either Carrick is very underrated or Winks is overrated which I can see it both here. Joe Cole never say his potential to be Carrick. He’s only saying that he can be like Carrick in term of being player’s player. Carrick was indeed player’s player around Scholes in midfield not the case when playing next to Anderson, Cleverley & Phil Jones.

You realise you're continuing it, right? I don't know why you keep going on about dragging the conversation on, then continue to reply. It's the Spurs thread, if you wanna scidaddle go ahead..

'The fact is that he played in midfield 2 alongside of Anderson, Cleverley, Phil Jones & 38 yo Giggs and still deliver trophies, winning matches & performance.' - What about this post doesn't make a huge deal of the trophies he was winning? Carrick delivered trophies did he, just him alone? Because that's pretty much what that post implied.

The bold is the first bit of sense you've posted. No, Wink isn't CURRENTLY on Carrick's level, and no Spurs fan would claim that. The point you're so stubbornly against is that this is a level I think he is capable of one day reaching. Which isn't a particularly bold claim, because Winks is a very highly regarded young midfielder who just the other week put in a sparkling performance for his country, and is a regular for us. You wouldn't build a midfield around a 23 year old Winks, but maybe you will around the player he could become in 3-4 years. That's all I'm claiming.

Carrick is rated perfectly well, as someone who reached a very high level in football and was a very good midfielder. I don't know why you keep stubbornly repeating that he must be underrated when I'm using him as a bar. You can think Winks is overrated if you want (He's not really, in fact he very much goes under the radar). And Cole isn't the only one who has made the comparison, plenty of ex-pro's/journalists have written and talked about how they think Winks can be a new Carrick type for England and that he has the potential to be at that level.

Again, you don't have to agree with that. The issue I have is the way you seem so shocked that the comparison is even made, and you're really dismissive about even the suggestion he could reach that level, which is purely speculative because it's based on my personal opinion about the ceiling of a young player.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

You realise you're continuing it, right? I don't know why you keep going on about dragging the conversation on, then continue to reply. It's the Spurs thread, if you wanna scidaddle go ahead.

Oh really? Or you just upset because I don’t rate Winks. How is a sentence of “sorry but no” can bother you so much? Can’t move on from 3 words?

'The fact is that he played in midfield 2 alongside of Anderson, Cleverley, Phil Jones & 38 yo Giggs and still deliver trophies, winning matches & performance.' - What about this post doesn't make a huge deal of the trophies he was winning? Carrick delivered trophies did he, just him alone? Because that's pretty much what that post implied.

How is that me talking about Carrick won lot of trophies? You are looking at one word but ignoring the whole sentence. Winning trophy is not the point of the sentence, the point is that Sir Alex built his midfield around him. You don’t build a midfield around Anderson, Cleverley & Phil Jones in midfield. Which to support my point of the discussion that I don’t rate Wink or even be comparable to Carrick because I don’t see a manager to build their midfield around Winks in his potential.

The bold is the first bit of sense you've posted. No, Wink isn't CURRENTLY on Carrick's level, and no Spurs fan would claim that. The point you're so stubbornly against is that this is a level I think he is capable of one day reaching. Which isn't a particularly bold claim, because Winks is a very highly regarded young midfielder who just the other week put in a sparkling performance for his country, and is a regular for us. You wouldn't build a midfield around a 23 year old Winks, but maybe you will around the player he could become in 3-4 years. That's all I'm claiming.

I meant it as his potential to Carrick’s level. I expect you understand it after our long discussion but you miserably fail

Carrick is rated perfectly well, as someone who reached a very high level in football and was a very good midfielder. I don't know why you keep stubbornly repeating that he must be underrated when I'm using him as a bar. You can think Winks is overrated if you want (He's not really, in fact he very much goes under the radar). And Cole isn't the only one who has made the comparison, plenty of ex-pro's/journalists have written and talked about how they think Winks can be a new Carrick type for England and that he has the potential to be at that level.

Again, you don't have to agree with that. The issue I have is the way you seem so shocked that the comparison is even made, and you're really dismissive about even the suggestion he could reach that level, which is purely speculative because it's based on my personal opinion about the ceiling of a young player.

I don’t know why I have to mention this the 2nd time but I will say this again, Cole only said Wink is player’s player like Carrick not talking about his potential to be on Carrick’s level.

The man who has been treated bad in England national team. It’s well known how underrated he is by English media. But completely different view in manager like Sir Alex, Wenger, Pep & players like Xavi & Alonso. What you see is in Carrick is like what England manager was viewing him and what the English media view him. What I see in Carrick is like what Sir Alex, Wenger, Pep, Xavi & Alonso view him. The fact you misinterpreted my top class definition & how you mentioned Wink’s potential basically sums up the differential of the view.

 

[Scroto Baggins]

Winks certainly isnt a bad player, He's a solid squad player and certainly a good option to have off the bench. He lacks the natural talent that Wilshere had. But looks like he has a lot more dedication than Wilshere, who seemed more interested in the party lifestyle than football.

I feel he could grow the offence side of his game a little more, his passing game as well, and be a Moutinhoesque type player. The type of player that is really good on his day, but below that level required to play for one of the big powerhouses.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

s?



How is that me talking about Carrick won lot of trophies? You are looking at one word but ignoring the whole sentence. Winning trophy is not the point of the sentence, the point is that Sir Alex built his midfield around him. You don’t build a midfield around Anderson, Cleverley & Phil Jones in midfield. Which to support my point of the discussion that I don’t rate Wink or even be comparable to Carrick because I don’t see a manager to build their midfield around Winks in his potential.




I meant it as his potential to Carrick’s level. I expect you understand it after our long discussion but you miserably fail



I don’t know why I have to mention this the 2nd time but I will say this again, Cole only said Wink is player’s player like Carrick not talking about his potential to be on Carrick’s level.

The man who has been treated bad in England national team. It’s well known how underrated he is by English media. But completely different view in manager like Sir Alex, Wenger, Pep & players like Xavi & Alonso. What you see is in Carrick is like what England manager was viewing him and what the English media view him. What I see in Carrick is like what Sir Alex, Wenger, Pep, Xavi & Alonso view him. The fact you misinterpreted my top class definition & how you mentioned Wink’s potential basically sums up the differential of the view.

I'm not looking at one word. You clearly worded it to imply that HE won those trophies. You can't write that and then later try and backtrack. You wouldn't build a midfield around a 23 year old Carrick either.

You don't understand Winks' potential. I highly doubt you've seen him enough to really reliably judge him, personally. The shit comments about Henderson made that super duper clear.

Why are you focusing on what Cole said when I gave you multiple articles/people making the comparison? And Cole clearly rates Winks at a very high level, you don't make those sort of comparisons and say he can be England's new Carrickesque player without thinking he has serious ability. What you've done is completely dismiss his ability entirely and then gone in stupid directions trying to tell me that Henderson is the limit of his potential. That's why this has gone on for so long, not because I'm annoyed you don't rate Winks as able to reach Carrick's level, but because you've been completely over the top and dismissed him as a player entirely. It's pure silliness.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I'm not looking at one word. You clearly worded it to imply that HE won those trophies. You can't write that and then later try and backtrack. You wouldn't build a midfield around a 23 year old Carrick either.

You don't understand Winks' potential. I highly doubt you've seen him enough to really reliably judge him, personally. The shit comments about Henderson made that super duper clear.

Why are you focusing on what Cole said when I gave you multiple articles/people making the comparison? And Cole clearly rates Winks at a very high level, you don't make those sort of comparisons and say he can be England's new Carrickesque player without thinking he has serious ability. What you've done is completely dismiss his ability entirely and then gone in stupid directions trying to tell me that Henderson is the limit of his potential. That's why this has gone on for so long, not because I'm annoyed you don't rate Winks as able to reach Carrick's level, but because you've been completely over the top and dismissed him as a player entirely. It's pure silliness.

You just need to learn how to accept different opinion. I don't know how is a sentence of “sorry but no” can bother you so much that you can't even move on.

I have said that Carrick is a top class midfielder not a world class midfielder, nothing silly. Speaking about potential in our discussion means Winks will need to have a top class level potential which I don't see it. I don't see his potential to reach top class level.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

You just need to learn how to accept different opinion. I don't know how is a sentence of “sorry but no” can bother you so much that you can't even move on.

I have said that Carrick is a top class midfielder not a world class midfielder, nothing silly. Speaking about potential in our discussion means Winks will need to have a top class level potential which I don't see it. I don't see his potential to reach top class level.

I can accept the difference of opinion, it wasn't just the 'sorry but no' bit that bothered me at all. It was some of the later stuff, but anyhow..

Alright, we'll leave it there, and that's fine.