Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

[Johan07]

The big issue with VAR is the rules seem to change every week. And because of that, useless pundits who don’t know the rules and terrible refereeing it becomes a massive farce every week.

Liverpool today. That first TAA is 100% a penalty, his arm is not in a natural position, unbelievably the Sky commentators tried to suggest it was! If the ref doesn’t spot that surely VAR has to give it.

The potential Salah offside was dealt with very badly. One replay provided about 15 minutes after the goal. Any close decision like that is usually reviewed for at least 2 minutes, and Sky show about 10 replays. Why didn’t VAR check that thoroughly like every other week? The line drawn on the picture provided were not parallel to the lines in the pitch either. I stand by his knee was offside and with the current letter of the law the goal shouldn’t stand.

The second handball isn’t a penalty, TAA has his arm in a natural position and it was slammed right into him from close range.

The push on the back by Mané is one of them where it would be a foul anywhere else on the pitch. It would have been a harsh penalty.

While I agree with the rest of your post in its entirety, the bold part is what gets to me too as well. We started the season with the PL for some stupid reason adopting another set of VAR-rules than the rest of Europe and UEFA and FIFA which pretty much led to marginal offside calls being given and VAR not being used at all in other scenarios (I dont know how many blatant penalties that was not given the first weeks of play).
Then the PL (I blame them for this) suddenly went back to using VAR for marginal penalty calls and got a few of them wrong as well. And when that was criticised now we seem to be back to the original approach with VAR not being used for such a blatant penalty call that City should have had today, and maybe now we should not really care about offsides either? Like the Salah-situation.
We either use VAR like the rest of Europe, UEFA and FIFA or we dont at all. Which means referees looking at screens, etc. This "sui generis" shit is fecking stupid and the PL should be ashamed of itself.

 

[Sandikan]

Yep I'd be upset as a City fan in that case. I hope they now accept that there was no penalty. So it's a case of would we still have gone on to win? More than likely the way that defence was set up.

However VAR should have worked should have meant no goal. Be it the "handball" and then scoring thing, or the pen given/ruled out for the city handball.

While Liverpool may have gone on to win, it was such a gamechanger that it ruined it.

 

[Hughie77]

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Exactly I said the same thing watching the game, it seems VAR is different for different clubs! They bottled the call of hand ball, and moved realy quick to allow a tight offside. ??

 

[Hughie77]

This game was shown all over the world, and it showed up the inept of the Premier league officials, it's just nonsense on how they came up with an explanation of a blatant pen.

 

[giorno]

The Athletic just posted a very good article explaining how the VAR offside technology works btw

You can use the free trial to read it. Will make this thread easier to navigate

 

[BrownRecluse]

Didn’t the ball hit a city players hand before going to TAA? At that point it should be a dead play as there cannot be a scoring chance that benefits from touching the hand. Sadio Mane has a goal disallowed a few weeks ago for this exact reason.
Not a penalty.

 

[a123]

We have been. At a minimum its a fk to liverpool after the advantage is over due to TAA handball, at most its a pen to city.

It simply cant be play on and a goal

Yes it can - the ball ricochets off Silvas arm (accidental) into Trents arm. Its accidental so the ref waves play on.

If the ball never hits Silvas arm accidentally it would not have hit Trents arm, the ball would have gone somewhere else. So they cancel each other out.

Now the ref could have given a free kick to Liverpool but he clearly waves 2 arms forward saying play on having seen the incident, so the game plays on.

Its simply an accidental handball from Silva. Play on.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

I hated when it first came out before the WC, probably becasue I'm a stuck in the mud old fogey, then during the WC and CL last season I thought I was wrong, and it's actually not bad, now I hate it all over again, it is comical how it is been used, and we should just go back the old adage of 'the decisions will even themselves out', because it's basically where we are now, only it's interrupting the game coming to that decision.

 

[Lennon7]

That's on the officials though, isn't it? Their handling of VAR has been so clumsy.

I suppose it’s both, the technology needs to be based on sensors and triggers like in other sports - just letting thick VAR referees review inaccurate footage and taking 5 mins is why it’s failing.

 

[dwd]

The thing with VAR that makes me most uncomfortable is that it’s effectively some bloke(s) in a room that we can’t see deciding whatever the feck they want. If that isn’t a foundation for corruption then I don’t know what is.

 

[BrownRecluse]

Also why was McTominay not given the goal? The ball was already heading into the goal no?

 

[sullydnl]

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[arnie_ni]

Yes it can - the ball ricochets off Silvas arm (accidental) into Trents arm. Its accidental so the ref waves play on.

If the ball never hits Silvas arm accidentally it would not have hit Trents arm, the ball would have gone somewhere else. So they cancel each other out.

Now the ref could have given a free kick to Liverpool but he clearly waves 2 arms forward saying play on having seen the incident, so the game plays on.

Its simply an accidental handball from Silva. Play on.

The trent one was a stonewall penalty then if Silva's was accidental.

 

[automaticflare]

Yes it can - the ball ricochets off Silvas arm (accidental) into Trents arm. Its accidental so the ref waves play on.

If the ball never hits Silvas arm accidentally it would not have hit Trents arm, the ball would have gone somewhere else. So they cancel each other out.

Now the ref could have given a free kick to Liverpool but he clearly waves 2 arms forward saying play on having seen the incident, so the game plays on.

Its simply an accidental handball from Silva. Play on.

hahaha are you on drugs. There are no "accidental" handballs anymore and you can't cancel stuff out.
It should have been pulled back for a free out to Liverpool.

 

[Blueman]

It will all even itself out won't it?? Fkin crazy

 

[montpelier]

So today, VAR has enabled the kind of whopping error it is supposed to be trying to prevent

Oliver should make a decision but doesn't because he is a useless twat and because of thinking VAR will help him out

Have any handball rule you like if you're just gonna ignore it happening

 

[a123]

hahaha are you on drugs. There are no "accidental" handballs anymore and you can't cancel stuff out.
It should have been pulled back for a free out to Liverpool.

Yes they can, because its advantage to Liverpool.

The ref doesnt have to give a free kick he can wave play on to us if its our free kick.

The trent one was a stonewall penalty then if Silva's was accidental.

No because Lovren kicked the ball forwards, the ball hit Silvas arm and ricocheted sideways into Trents arm.

If youre the defender in the penalty box, you kick the ball away to clear it, it hits my arm and rebounds back onto your arm, is that my penalty even though it hit my arm first?

 

[giorno]

Ultimately i think they came to the sensible conclusion of letting the call on the pitch stand. In my opinion it can never be a penalty for city(because of the handball by bernardo). After that, the play continues, City win the ball back, passes it back to fabinho who smashes it in from 30 yards. To call off a goal that happened a minute after the initial foul, after a double change of possession, to award a free kick in the box to the team that scored makes no sense. It's not like the initial handball had a direct influence on the goal itself

But that's just me. Dunno what the laws say here

 

[montpelier]

Oliver let's the play continue though, so VAR can sort it out. If nothing happens it is probably a fk to Liverpool to restart in order to show the result of a proper VAR assessmemt

Would be a way of looking at it

The goal does put a cat in with the pigeons though, obviously

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Ultimately i think they came to the sensible conclusion of letting the call on the pitch stand. In my opinion it can never be a penalty for city(because of the handball by bernardo). After that, the play continues, City win the ball back, passes it back to fabinho who smashes it in from 30 yards. To call off a goal that happened a minute after the initial foul, after a double change of possession, to award a free kick in the box to the team that scored makes no sense. It's not like the initial handball had a direct influence on the goal itself

But that's just me. Dunno what the laws say here

That's a fairly generous way of looking at it. It was basically a rushed clearance under pressure.

I would still count it as the same phase of play.

Also there was only about 12 seconds between handball and goal

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Yes they can, because its advantage to Liverpool.

The ref doesnt have to give a free kick he can wave play on to us if its our free kick.

As has been said - offences can't cancel each other out.

TAA's - by the new laws - is 100% handball. His arm is away from his body and he's handled it. It's fairly cut and dry... The debate is whatever Silva's is handball or not.

 

[montpelier]

Cracking goal but have a free kick in your own box instead

At Anfield?

I'm not seeing it, tbh

 

[Devil77]

Ok! So I’ll say it again. VAR has not made the games any fairer. But it has ruined the experience for us viewers. Worst thing to happen to football since... since ever! Get rid now!

 

[MikeeMike]

Ok! So I’ll say it again. VAR has not made the games any fairer. But it has ruined the experience for us viewers. Worst thing to happen to football since... since ever! Get rid now!

totally agree now we are down to mm arguments. For me it was a 50/50 penalty (hand ball). Salah totally onside , its clear from images. elbow in back was a penalty , no idea why not given. If it was an attacker vs defender would have been given as a foul all day long. Maybe the 3 challenges rule would help, similar to cricket ?

 

[Swarlos]

As has been said - offences can't cancel each other out.

TAA's - by the new laws - is 100% handball. His arm is away from his body and he's handled it. It's fairly cut and dry... The debate is whatever Silva's is handball or not.

No it's not.

Deflections

Premier League players will be allowed extra leeway when it comes to ricocheted handballs.

It is often impossible to avoid contact with the ball if it has deflected off the body of an opponent, team-mate, or even another part of the own player.

So a handball will not be awarded if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from their own head/body/foot or the head/body/foot of another player who is close/nearby.

This is definitely the case for Trent. Clearly not a hand ball.

For all the whining on here, I struggle to find a decision VAR actually got wrong today.

 

[TheReligion]

Yes it can - the ball ricochets off Silvas arm (accidental) into Trents arm. Its accidental so the ref waves play on.

If the ball never hits Silvas arm accidentally it would not have hit Trents arm, the ball would have gone somewhere else. So they cancel each other out.

Now the ref could have given a free kick to Liverpool but he clearly waves 2 arms forward saying play on having seen the incident, so the game plays on.

Its simply an accidental handball from Silva. Play on.

Nice suggestion but that's not how the law of the game works

 

[TheReligion]

No it's not.



This is definitely the case for Trent. Clearly not a hand ball.

For all the whining on here, I struggle to find a decision VAR actually got wrong today.

Nice try but it's hardly close proximity. Watch the replay. If Aguero has the time to turn around and watch it go past him and hit TAAs arm he has the time to react.

It's a stone wall penalty. Every single pundit has agreed.

 

[montpelier]

Can't be a pen. Silva handles it first surely.

 

[Tony Babangida]

Ok! So I’ll say it again. VAR has not made the games any fairer. But it has ruined the experience for us viewers. Worst thing to happen to football since... since ever! Get rid now!

Yeah it’s shite. It was brought it to stop controversy and stop errors. But we still have both. I’ve been in the ground celebrating goals with VAR in the back of my mind. Definitely takes away from it.

 

[TheReligion]

@a123

If Liverpool were given an advantage due to the first handball from City then the ref should blow when TAA handles and give Liverpool a free kick. That's the advantage. You can't just ignore the TAA handball and claim to play advantage to Liverpool when the ball is bouncing around in their own box. The idea is laughable as who would say that's an advantage?

For your idea to have any semblance of sense the ref would have needed to blow on the TAA handball either way. To give a pen to City or to give Liverpool a free kick.

 

[Swarlos]

Nice try but it's hardly close proximity. Watch the replay. If Aguero has the time to turn around and watch it go past him and hit TAAs arm he has the time to react.

It's a stone wall penalty. Every single pundit has agreed.

Do we calculate proximity by how much Aguero has turned his head now?

It's a couple of yards, and it's deflected. You can easily argue that it's nearby, and without official definitions you can't decide if it's one way or the other with 100% certainty.

EVEN IF it was determined to be a hand ball though, it still wouldn't be a penalty because Silvas hand ball. Every single pundit does not agree, and even if they did, it would still make them wrong.

 

[do.ob]

I don't see the reason for controversy. TAA's handball was debatable, but since it was a a deflection from a relatively short distance it's at the very least not a mistake to rule it accidental [so no VAR intervention warranted here], City intercepting the cross from the resulting counter attack and Gündogan playing that terrible ball to Fabinho afaik means the goal counted as a new attacking move and thus the TAA incident didn't fall under the much stricter rules for handling the ball in attack.

 

[TheReligion]

Do we calculate proximity by how much Aguero has turned his head now?

It's a couple of yards, and it's deflected. You can easily argue that it's nearby, and without official definitions you can't decide if it's one way or the other with 100% certainty.

EVEN IF it was determined to be a hand ball though, it still wouldn't be a penalty because Silvas hand ball. Every single pundit does not agree, and even if they did, it would still make them wrong.

Well the whole of the sky panel agreed it was a penalty and if just watched MOTD and they all do too.

You need to take off your blinkers as you sound deluded.

Also point me in the direction of the rule that states one handball cancels out another. Ta.

 

[montpelier]

I don't see the reason for controversy. TAA's handball was debatable, but since it was a a deflection from a relatively short distance it's at the very least not a mistake to rule it accidental [so no VAR intervention warranted here], City intercepting the cross from the resulting counter attack and Gündogan playing that terrible ball to Fabinho afaik means the goal counted as a new attacking move and thus the TAA incident didn't fall under the much stricter rules for handling the ball in attack.

Oliver being #1 ref ever has worked all this out in a split second?

I say that normally the game is stopped so we understand what is happening

Where normally = without the VAR letting Oliver evade making the decision he should make

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

The solution is so simple, in my opinion. People want VAR to get rid of blatantly wrong decisions that impact results, so just don't allow the VAR to watch replays in slow motion or with the absurd freeze framing. If there is an error that is so obvious that it can be noticed at normal speed, call it back. Apologies if this touches a nerve, but a good example would be the goal Aubameyang scored against United in the recent fixture. Even at normal speed he was obviously onside, so this was correctly overturned by VAR. Get rid of this utter nonsense where a player is offside by a toenail - I don't give a toss how accurate the technology purports to be; it is so antithetical to the spirit of the game and no one was clamouring for offsides to be down to the fecking millimeter.

Also, this would likely reduce the absurd breaks in play and would allow for a more free-flowing spectacle again. I cannot fathom how anyone could be happy with the way this has been implemented.

 

[montpelier]

Thinking it's a pen, I do find amazing though. If you VAR it, they do sort of cancel out?

Because it's free kick first surely

 

[Swarlos]

Well the whole of the sky panel agreed it was a penalty and if just watched MOTD and they all do too.

You need to take off your blinkers as you sound deluded.

Also point me in the direction of the rule that states one handball cancels out another. Ta.

And the pundits on Norwegian TV2 initially thought it was a penalty as well, but changed their mind when they actually saw the replay and got told the rules by a former Premier League ref. That isn't really relevant though, because pundits shouldn't be authorities when it comes to these kinds of decisions.

3 former or current premier league refs have reviewed the situation with replays, and they all conclude that it's not a penalty. The fact the only thing supporting your argument is that "pundits said so" shows how weak it is.

You need to take off your blinkers as you sound deluded.

 

[TheReligion]

And the pundits on Norwegian TV2 initially thought it was a penalty as well, but changed their mind when they actually saw the replay and got told the rules by a former Premier League ref. That isn't really relevant though, because pundits shouldn't be authorities when it comes to these kinds of decisions.

3 former or current premier league refs have reviewed the situation with replays, and they all conclude that it's not a penalty. The fact the only thing supporting your argument is that "pundits said so" shows how weak it is.

You need to take off your blinkers as you sound deluded.

What supports my argument is the fact the ball hit his arm,which is outstretched from his body, whilst he's stood in the penalty box. Jesus wept.

I'm glad you clarified that the three former referees have reviewed the situation with replays and not the naked eye alone. I will sleep much better tonight knowing that.

What's the rules then? As you suggested one handball cancels another?

 

[TheReligion]

Thinking it's a pen, I do find amazing though. If you VAR it, they do sort of cancel out?

Because it's free kick first surely

Yeah so give one. You can't just let play go on.

 

[do.ob]

Oliver being #1 ref ever has worked all this out in a split second?

I say that normally the game is stopped so we understand what is happening

Where normally = without the VAR letting Oliver evade making the decision he should make

What do you mean by "all this"? Judging by his gesture afterwards he was aware of TAA handling the ball and the deflection. He was aware of the relevant factors and made a reasonable call.
Why should VAR intervene here? It's mandate is to overturn mistakes, it's not there to replace the referees live perception of the game.