Just wondering what people in he North of England were thinking. Do they actually believe that the Conservative government will care about people in the North?
UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80
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And you're basing this on what exactly?
The problem is that the bad things come slowly, so they don't feel a big hit. The drip fed issues are excused because of this and that reason. There's also a lot of people that are working class but comfortable, for now, so they won't be feeling it yet, but they might when they have to pay medical bills, or the excess on them if they're lucky enough to get insurance, or the full bill when they find out the insurance doesn't cover what they have.
Many of the 80's politicians are gone, so the new generation cares about them, right?
You know what he means. The only thing bringing me any solace is that these clowns voting for the tories are going to be badly affected by future Tory budgets.
Why do people keep referring to 2017 as if it was a victory? They were 84 seats away from a majority ffs.
Yes. I'm too weary today to try to extrapolate to the future properly. I will say that my city is highly emotional and I'm certain Edinburgh at least is too.
You are calling 14 million people clowns and wishing on them the very things you claim to care about.
My take on the gains is this:
Austerity - as you said, the Labour message and the 2017 election has shifted the needle with the electorate and I think this is a good thing. There's a reason why Johnson's campaign promised some semblance of spending and revolved around trying to distance himself from the last 9 years of Tory government.
Climate change - Labour for a Green New Deal, links to the US Democratic green new deal movement, the energisation of young climate change activists-turned labour campaigners (in the last few weeks there have been hundreds of under 18s willing to get out and campaign for Labour in the cold and rain because of their climate concerns). It's now untenable for any mainstream UK political party to deny that climate change is happening or that we need to tackle it now. This isn't the case in the United States. See the platitudes in the 2019 Tory manifesto at least pretending to care about it compared to Johnson's previous beliefs that it wasn't real. By no means is this JUST because of Corbyn's Labour party, but alongside Extinction Rebellion, the historic work of the Green party and grass-roots activism, the needle has clearly been shifted. Will we lose the next 5 years to act decisively on climate change because of this election result? Probably yes unless direct action can have an impact. Still, at least we no longer have a battle to prove that it's real and that we need to do something urgently - and the Labour party has played a role in that.
Nationalisation - the nationalisation policy is overwhelmingly supported by the public and has been since the 1990s. The Corbyn Labour manifesto is the first time such a programme has made it into the manifesto of a major party. Obviously we don't know where the Labour party will go after last night's defeat, but given that they lost support in historic heartlands hit by neoliberal privatisation, I can't imagine a nationalisation agenda being ditched in the near future.
Mobilisation - side point, but Labour got a higher share of the vote last night than in 2005 when they gained a majority of seats. Obviously we have first past the post so this is mostly irrelevant, but I think it is worth repeating as it forms part of the silver lining I take from last night. Momentum et al have been incredibly successful in mobilising grassroots activists to give up their free time to campaign, and this is the only movement of it's like in Britain. These people are often not just first time campaigners, but often people who have never voted before. Unfortunately because they tend to be relatively young, like most young working people in 2019 live in the big cities. The explosion of this force and it's success in 2017 wasn't reflected in seats this time for a number of factors (most notably Brexit), but the enormous majorities in inner city areas and the creation of a 'new labour heartland' (young, working class precariat voters in big cities) is real. Momentum has grown, has more members and volunteers and will continue to be a force. The result last night does not prove that grassroots activism is pointless, it proves that it needs to be better used - particularly with a message that can resonate with old, white, male voters who have witnessed 40 years of their lives getting shitter and 40 years of politicians either taking them for granted or promising to represent them at let them down. My own view is that once Brexit is 'done' and is revealed to be yet another false promise that doesn't improve their lives or local communities, we will need to re-engage with them, and we will need a grassroots populist movement to do that.
I know it's easy to be despondent after last night, and the result is an absolute punch in the gut.
The gains I have spent far too many words explaining above are far less than I was expecting or hoping for. Still, I'm looking for any reason to be optimistic at the moment and hopefully the above will remind some progressives that despite the historic defeat, their time and effort hasn't been for nothing.
I feel like scratching my eyes out everytime it's mentioned. It's absolutely stunning people can't see that.
But ooooh no, don't worry they built up the base, comrade Corbyn was going to increase that for sure. Until it was completely battered last night. But don'cha worry! That was all about Brexit, next time they will sure win after Brexit, right! Right?
When it's still a publicly debated issue I'm not sure you can say it's won.
We were getting better GDP growth in the 50s and 60s when the top rate of tax was 90%.
Personally I don't really think income inequality is that helpful, certainly not the way we see it in our society but even without that it shouldn't be growing the way it has been at a time when we have growing child poverty and homelessness and our services have been taking budget cuts. I don't think people in general would be against inequality though as long as you're also increasing the quality of life for those lower down. This is why people get annoyed with people voting for a party that is causing that with it's policies, and it will often boil over into insults because people's lives are on the line. A vote for the Tories may not be placed because people don't care about vulnerable people, but it is often place in spite of caring and I can't really blame people for being upset about that.
The result of the election. You've got huge swathes of the country voting conservative. The very people who are supposedly persecuted and treated like shit by the tories. The reality appears to be quite the opposite. We have record employment and low taxes that directly benefit the working class. I'm not surprised they don't want to risk a 'revolutionary' Labour government. Oh, and they also want Brexit.
More working class people are comfortable now because of the Tory government. The concern for me is what happens to people even further down the chain. What happens to social care, what happens when you drop out of the 'working class' system. The Tory approach does work for the many though. Record employment, low taxes, it's a vote winner.
Where did I say it was a victory, how the hell do you even read into that way? I'm looking at the drop off from last time.
I've always seen it the other way around. I have a real problem with patriotism and people claiming to be proud to by British/American/German etc. It does not make any sense first of all and could be very dangerous potentially if you think your place of birth makes you superior to others. On the other hand I fully support political nationalism as in having strong independent nation states and the rejection of supranational institutions such as the European Union that undermine their sovereignty.
And those of us who aren't clowns?
It's the kind of toxic attitude that needs to be fecked off out of it.
You can look at this as classic divide an conquer tactics. I don't think Cameron held the referendum with that intent, more your standard hubris from an arrogant man thinking this would sort the Eurosceptics in his party out. Boris knew that he'd never be leader in a 'One Nation' Tory party so hedged his bets on this course.
He should be up for war crimes along with his buddy Bush.
The North voted pretty heavily to leave, probably caused a good portion of those switches. Obviously not the only issue, but Brexit has been a big thing it whole politics of the country for the last 3-4 years.
If only Corbyn had shown conviction one way or another on Brexit.
Campaign passionately to remain in the EU in 2016 and help stop the movement of Labour Leavers. He could have done that by explaining why the EU is not the fault of the decays in small towns and traditionally Labour land but instead Westminster and years of austerity.
Instead he was at best lukewarm given he was a lifelong eurosceptic.
The other way is to have maintained the 2017 policy of respecting the referendum result. No second referendum. If he levelled up with Johnson on brexit then this election might not have been a brexit election because both parties agree we will come out.
Instead he thought he could win on a social policy platform when the whole purpose of a winter election being triggered was brexit deadlock.
My personal feeling was it was a huge mistake even urging for an election. The tories lost their majority in the house. Johnson was backed in a corner like May. Wait it out. Let him do brexit as far as he can or let a right wing civil war emerge over it so in 2022 the Labour/Lib Dems have bought themselves more time. I guess Corbyn felt he could not wait until 2022 because of his age and internal party problems.
Campaign passionately to remain in the EU in 2016 and help stop the movement of Labour Leavers. He could have done that by explaining why the EU is not the fault of the decays in small towns and traditionally Labour land but instead Westminster and years of austerity.
Instead he was at best lukewarm given he was a lifelong eurosceptic.
The other way is to have maintained the 2017 policy of respecting the referendum result. No second referendum. If he levelled up with Johnson on brexit then this election might not have been a brexit election because both parties agree we will come out.
Instead he thought he could win on a social policy platform when the whole purpose of a winter election being triggered was brexit deadlock.
My personal feeling was it was a huge mistake even urging for an election. The tories lost their majority in the house. Johnson was backed in a corner like May. Wait it out. Let him do brexit as far as he can or let a right wing civil war emerge over it so in 2022 the Labour/Lib Dems have bought themselves more time. I guess Corbyn felt he could not wait until 2022 because of his age and internal party problems.
In what way? Everything will get more expensive as far as I can see. They'll be without EU restrictions soon enough so will be able to do as they please. Wouldn't surprise me if we ended with as few holidays as the US, which is no small thing. That directly contributes to happiness in my eyes.
Travel will become harder, working class immigrants will have a harder time, visiting hospital or the GP will become more difficult. Even if it stayed the same, it's shocking. I can't get in to see the doctor. Booking on the app is a month in advance. Only chance is ringing in the morning on the day, and by the time you're able to I need to be well on my way to work if I can go in. Chance of getting one anyway is very very slim.
So, so disappointing to see working class regions voting for upper-class snobs who hold them in the same regard as they would dog turd on the bottom of their shoes. But not altogether surprising.
The bare bones of it - Wales in general was one of the biggest Leave voting areas in the UK. You have a choice of two blokes:
Bloke 1 - repeats a slogan of 'Get Brexit Done'.
Bloke 2 - claims he will hold another vote on Brexit.
For people who wanted to leave the EU, the choice is absolutely clear. I wasn't shocked at all by this outcome.
The bare bones of it - Wales in general was one of the biggest Leave voting areas in the UK. You have a choice of two blokes:
Bloke 1 - repeats a slogan of 'Get Brexit Done'.
Bloke 2 - claims he will hold another vote on Brexit.
For people who wanted to leave the EU, the choice is absolutely clear. I wasn't shocked at all by this outcome.
I live in a Labour town that yesterday went Tory for the first time in 27 years with a 5,000 majority. The Labour candidate is well and truly blaming worries about what Jeremy Corbyn represented.
But thats the whole point, politics in this country right now IS toxic.
It's been fueled by the right with Brexit and the media campaign against Labour and Corbyn. Being nice and civil while watching the country you love burn in front of you is not useful either. It's a no win situation right now.
Be angry = toxic
Be sad = snowflake
Are the left leaning meant to take a pumelling each week by the right and not stand up for itself? Isn't this precisely the attitude that allowed the right to so openly lie to the publics face and go unchallenged? Personally, it's time the gloves came off, what the left need is a leader who will actually fight back.
This is the madness the Labour left needs to rid itself of. If you're one of the main two parties, you are either in power or not. If not, that's failure.
It’s the last thing Boris should be doing. Would be amazed if he engages with the SNP over a referendum.
You can’t put a time frame on it in any case, the referendum in 2014 was pitched as the only one for a generation. The purpose of the SNP is independence, and they will never give up that fight.
The Govt have enough on their plate to even entertain any talk of a Scottish referendum.
That was down to a little thing called World War 2. The tax rate could have been anything.
Its much easier to grow from a lower base, and the 50s and 60s was just recovering from WWII with a massive investment from the US (Marshall Plan). Its not a comparable situation.
You are basically agreeing with what I've been saying for days on here.
However, how is what that idiot said and Revan endorsing exactly "fighting back" where it matters? Wishing shit on us all is a horrible attitude. I mean learn lessons ffs. We need these people back in the fold, but we also certainly need to stop the in fighting amongst ourselves first don't we?
Because the media ,Press and many in here said Corbyns Labour would be wiped out with a huge majority for May.
The conservatives got over 25% of the Scottish vote so I would hardly say the whole country is devastated. Twice as many Scots also voted for brexit than voted for the SNP and that seems to get ignored too.
One of the main pledges of Johnson was no more reruns of referendums so I'd be surprised to see one for a long time.
So they got beat 3-0 instead of 5-0, with the help of one of the worst campaigns run by a Conservative leader.
Why should a candidate to become pm ever give a long and detailed interview ever again?
Classic situation on BBC at the moment of a working class guy explaining why he voted for Conservatives and a posh girl trying to hold back from calling him an idiot.
Exactly, Im done, just done with it. This country has had its say, and its say is that it wants a racist, elitist, puppet in charge because they have swallowed the anti eu, anti foreigner greed is good, Im alright jack propaganda. Im off at the first possible opportunity, might not be soon, and I dont know where but Im off.
It's a toss-up who despises the working class more, upper class tories or metropolitan momentum types.
They shouldn't, this is politics now. Soundbites and slogans. Untruths and saying whatever people want to hear.
Tony Blair's "education, education, education" mantra should be an example for the next Labour leader
Both in equal measure probably. The right are just better at lying to them.
What did he say?- Status