To be frank, this particular stat is far from being "mouth-watering".
Do you see the plan yet?
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The football and chance creation has been miles better, we're just not as clinical as we could be.
If you take out Astana, we have scored 19 goals in the last 7 games, that surely beats the dour football we’ve seen post SAF?
I didn't say stat was bad, just not mouth-watering. Scoring 2 goals a game is not actually enough, we need to score more. Yet, the momentum is there, and there is improvement in chances created - the situation was much worse recently.
Silly remark
I think Ole is merely playing counter with the players he has at his disposal. If, in the next couple of windows, he can make 3/4 more astute signings, we’ll see his side take shape.
Ole in. Nqat.
Fair point! I should have said the win was thrown away.
You're absolutely right starting with a back three was a mistake, but Ole saw this, realised there was no link between the midfield and attack and then subbed Jones for Lingard. That was a tactically great sub, immediately you looked more threatening as the balls from midfield became more focussed rather than passes that were in hit in the hope of someone in the forward line running onto them. You pulled it back to 3-2 and were looking good, but then Ole decided to try and shut up shop by bringing on Tuanzebe for Martial (who was doing a good job of holding the ball up), that just invited Sheffield straight back on to you. Tuanzebe who is not a holding midfielder instinctively fell back into the defensive line disrupting the back 4 and allowing Sheffield even more time with the ball and unsurprisingly they equalised in the dying minutes. Lesson learnt for Ole.
True, but still a sign of progress I'd say.
This is somewhat of a chicken and the egg scenario. What influences what?
My point against him being "forced" to play this way is to look at the type of players brought in and not during the summer:
1. Players clearly more suited to counter-attacking football than possession-based brought in.
2. No investment in players able to play possession-based, nor retaining the ball and create chances in the final third.
Last season we did not struggle to create chances during counter-attacks. Our main problem was our inability to keep the ball and create chances against a balanced defence. The plan and opinion among the people in charge seem to be that counter attacking football will bring us long term success. I, for one, find it highly unlikely that any team will be able to be successful over time and at the highest level without being able to play some variant of possession-based football and comfortable in creating chances against a balanced defence.
Some people just want an echo chamber mate, not an internet forum. They streamline the thread/forum so they only see people who share the same viewpoint, it's quite odd really. I get that some posters can be overly abusive or provocative but the majority of psoters are not like that.
Yeah but 20 years of SAF will bring you that. And Klopp is also a direct football fan, it’s working for him, no?
I don’t think we even want to play a possession based football that would be slow. At best, we would play a very fast based possession football, or play direct and go for the jugular. One bonus we can add is the mental strength. That’s typical of the United we know of.
Ole did learn from Pep but moved away from it. In my mind, there’s a reason and that’s because this direct football is much more devastating long term for the opposition. And when it’s going to be full force, the opposition will fear us so much we will have the ball. Similar to what’s happening to Liverpool right now.
Then people will say we dominate small teams or that we are playing possession football. No, the opposition is just freaking out and giving away the ball.
Liverpool is playing a version of possession-based football and is the biggest change from Klopp's time at BVB. And they are comfortable attacking and creating chances against a balanced defence.
Could you rephrase the rest of your post as the rest does not make sense?
Liverpool, possession based? You must not be watching their goals then... what the hell.
You’re the one spotting nonsense. Klopp teams prefer to pressure their opponents into making a mistake high up the pitch and then, rapidly, as in the blink of an eye, regain possession and score a goal without even giving the rival player the time to blink. This is actually how SAF played, and that’s how Ole wants to play. Because that’s United dna.
Now since you say Klopp changed, let me hear what is this big change from the BVB time. Becoming possession based? That’s a laughable comment.
The only thing he did was that he lowered the intensity of the pressing to have less injuries.
So we’re waiting. Tell us how Liverpool is playing a possession game football.
Wait no, better. Tell us how SAF was playing possession game football.
Is there any chance we can stop with the "Ole didn't bring this and this player in and he didn't address this and this position so he is clueless" arguments before I have to take time out of a already buy day writing a thread on its own detailing why you're just wrong?
Well I don't really agree with that. I'm not sure Ole has "one style of play" rather than has just selected one based on the players he has.
In anycase, Guirdiola only has one style of play and is considered one of the best coaches in the world. Pochettino only has one style of play and there are countless people on here who want him to replace Ole. So it's a paper argument
Matic has only been missing through injury. He was dropped from being first choice in favour of McTominay, his workrate stats pretty much prove he has a habit of getting less and less arsed, and even had the cheek to whine to the media that Ole was wrong to do this. You have to draw a line somewhere and if it's not there I really don't know where it is. He shouldn't be getting picked for any game at this point.
Mata has started 5 premier league games this season. I'm not saying there is much choice in some ways. This is where it is difficult for Ole to execute a plan because he is always 1 injury away from relying on players who can't execute it...my issue is that this won't change until he draws a line in the sand. These aren't just players who aren't good enough, in some cases they also just don't perform to their best. Part of being a manager is getting the best out of what you have. When Mata is playing against Southampton, and all he is doing is playing slow sideways passes and contributing nothing else, he is not doing his best.
Players like Pereira, Lingard and Young I have a lot more sympathy for Ole with, because they at least do try and put the work in and do the best they can. They just aren't really good enough except for in flashes or moments. Lingard is actually better than peoplemon here like to pretend. When you are having to rely on players who aren't quite at the level you want though, that makes it even more important not to carry passengers, and to get the best from what you do have. It's games like the away one at West Ham or Newcastle I'm thinking of, where players are picked WITH the likes of Pereira and Young, who clearly aren't going to do their job. It makes it near on impossible to expect anything, against any team in the league. Pick people who get the basics right first, then the ones who aren't picked might get the message and start doing the basics themselves.
Yeah I know
It's a Europa League game though where we're already through, playing against a team who are already through. It's easy to do it when it doesn't matter.
Pereira, again I actually like him. I don't mind him being picked on the basis our squad isn't good enough so there is currently no one else. Matic and Mata...I mean, can you actually tell me the last time either played in the Premier League and produced a performance that was anywhere near what either of them are actually capable of? You're going back well over a year with Matic. Possibly similar with Mata...yet they've both started PL games this season. I don't see why.
Mata just seems to go into a shell and Matic just seems plain lazy...there were stats posted by a Chelsea fan when we signed him that pretty much prove he just stopped trying when he was there...so he even has previous. At some point surely you have to just say "this isn't acceptable"
Perhaps people want to come on the forum to talk without the constant arguments/trolling?
DC: Passes completed within an estimate of 20 years to the goal, excluding crosses...
Possession this season: EPL
Klopp's BVB started to struggle when teams did not want to have the ball against them and instead only focused on counter-attacking football. Hence Klopp's change in style to a more balanced type of pressing and the team being able to control the ball and break down a balanced defence if needed.
There are many variations of possession-based football and to different degrees. Not only Tiki-Taka.
What does SAF got to do with this?
Ok, I can’t see the ingur link (too slow to show up?) but again, if your claim is that Klopp is doing any kind of possession football just because his team has a lot of possession in average, that is wrong. When the opposition surrenders the ball to you and you end up with having the ball because they are afraid of your direct football, that’s not a possession based football, that’s just you having the ball.
And when you have the ball, you end up passing it around but it’s much easier when you are feared. And the origin of the fear is the pace.
Klopp is said to ask 2 questions when hiring a player. “Do you like to train?” and “Do you like to run?”. That should tell you that his football is one purely based on hard work and speed. He is not focusing on possession, however you want to put it, and goals always happen quickly because that’s the emphasis.
Simple illustration of what I’m saying if it is counter intuitive to you. Yesterday, 2nd half, we score 4 goals. Some of them have been very intense and fast in their build up. After scoring 4 goals, I’m sure we played more relaxed and AZ gave up the ball. Did we become a possession based team in that 2nd half? No. But stats I am sure are going to show something closer to those 57% of Liverpool. So again, that’s a meaningless stat for me. The intend of play is much more defining and Klopp’s intend are clear and simple: press, counter press, break fast, score.
I mentioned SAF because you said you do not believe that counter attacking or playing direct with intensity is a sustainable long term plan. Well, SAF did it for 20+ years, and Klopp is doing it.
And that is why I trust Ole. He did follow Pep’s way of having possession in his first seasons with Molde but he came back to a SAF style of play and I love it.
Can you link the thread? I may have missed it.
2,1 goals per game is 80 goals over 38 matches in the PL. The last time we had better goalscoring stats than that were under SAF in 2012/2013 with 2,26 goal per match.
The best since was the Toxic ones 2nd place season with 1,79 goals per match (68 goals). The ultimate low was the last season with LVG, were we managed to find the back of the net 49 times in 38 matches. Hard to deny that the goalscoring stat over the last 13 games shows some kind of improvement in the attacking department, isn't it?
I think if he has the team take a bow after a draw against Colchester, the plan is in full swing.
Liverpool celebrated a 2-2 draw with West Brom at home like they'd won the champions league. Everything starts somewhere.
They only really progressed by buying Salah, Fabinho, Alisson and having Firmino/Mane already playing well.
While Liverpool's opposition usually cedes the ball to them, does not mean that Liverpool does not play some variation of possession-based football. IF they were like us being totally useless on the ball and against a balanced defence, then yes it would be difficult to argue that they are a possession-based team... But they perform fairly well with having the ball and playing against a set defence.
IIRC Klopp also stated that he wanted the ball 1/2 years ago.
Your definition of Klopp's intention is what describes him at BVB. Now, he also wants his team to be able to keep the ball when not able to counter or press the oppo into losing the ball in dangerous situations.
It is not sustainable long term today. Teams have become more tactically aware, fewer opportunities for fast breaks than ever before, and the understanding that being caught unbalanced is what will most likely lead to a goal against... If you do not see it this way, then ok. We clearly have different understandings and viewpoints about football.
We’ve had the same problem for a number of years now. Getting results against the top teams, struggling against the lesser. Recent weeks only reaffirms this. I want Ole to succeed but I’m not getting carried away because of wins against city and Tottenham. Let’s see how we do in the coming weeks against some mid table opposition.
Yes we clearly do not have the same vision but I like that one. And again, Klopp asks those questions even at Liverpool. So no, that part has not changed.
Anyway, us being inept with the ball is probably not going to be true very soon. All I am saying is that the vision we have for United is one based in fast football. And it will be in line with the way we play.
I also fully disagree with your vision that football has changed. Nobody plays with the intend to make mistake, before or now. You can try harder to avoid mistakes, but technically a goal only happen when you have a defensive mistake. Playing fast is ok, that’s not exclusive to creating mistake.
Back to Ole, in recent games you see more and more players pulling the opposition players into spaces to allow us to get into the half spaces behind and combine. So I think it’s going to deliver with goals. Keep the focus on for not conceding and we will be in a very long run. I hope you will
enjoy the football even if it’s not Pep football. And I still invite you to reassess how Klopp currently plays.
I did say, some posters are like that (overly provactive/abusive). But most are not. Some just don't seem to like seeing people who don't agree with their own POV.
Jawohl?
Regardless, I see it as highly unlikely that we will ever become long term success at the biggest stage again without being able to dominate games on the ball against lesser teams and for a majority of the games we play during a season... Pragmatic OGS/Mourinho-esque approach is good in certain games, but not against weaker teams equally willing to cede possession.
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I believe I explained why I think the fundamentals of football have not changed, and will probably not change. After that, I take note of your point, and you know my points... I just think that when teams fear you, you will get the ball automatically more and you can naturally exploit it, without that being your intend of football.
Ja klar, etwas. Irhe Meinung zu Fuzzball war.. Well it was surprising.
The game has developed and changed. Fundamentals, as in the rules, are the same. How one goes about playing football has changed if one takes a +5 year time frame into consideration.
For the first time in what seems like forever, we're playing an actual style of football. You can actually sit down and watch us play and discern a pattern in our play.
Whether counter attacking is enough to sustain success in the long run, I don't know. Real Madrid played incredible counter attacking football over the past few years, but they've always had that extra element to their game, the ability to hold onto the ball when necessary, and unlock teams with players like Isco, Modric and Kroos. We don't have that extra string to our bow yet.
While it is great watching us play devastating football on the counter, watching Rashford, Martial and James in full flow is great to see. We haven't had a front 3 with so much pace and so direct in a long time. However, we can't keep going the way we are when teams give us the incentive to play football. We're missing that control over games, and it's the next thing that should be addressed by Ole. Knowing we are devastating on the counter is great, but it can't be our only option in the long run.
We have to be able to mix things up, like all great teams. There are so many ways to win a football match, we need to utilise all of them. Before we can even begin to think about challenging again we need to improve our control over games, and actually start scoring from set pieces. We're not going to play well every game, but how many times have you seen us over the years scrape through thanks to goal from a set piece. Needs to be an area of improvement, both our own set plays and defending the oppositions
Whether counter attacking is enough to sustain success in the long run, I don't know. Real Madrid played incredible counter attacking football over the past few years, but they've always had that extra element to their game, the ability to hold onto the ball when necessary, and unlock teams with players like Isco, Modric and Kroos. We don't have that extra string to our bow yet.
While it is great watching us play devastating football on the counter, watching Rashford, Martial and James in full flow is great to see. We haven't had a front 3 with so much pace and so direct in a long time. However, we can't keep going the way we are when teams give us the incentive to play football. We're missing that control over games, and it's the next thing that should be addressed by Ole. Knowing we are devastating on the counter is great, but it can't be our only option in the long run.
We have to be able to mix things up, like all great teams. There are so many ways to win a football match, we need to utilise all of them. Before we can even begin to think about challenging again we need to improve our control over games, and actually start scoring from set pieces. We're not going to play well every game, but how many times have you seen us over the years scrape through thanks to goal from a set piece. Needs to be an area of improvement, both our own set plays and defending the oppositions
Looking forward to even more clarity over what the plan is when we absolutely annihilate Everton tomorrow.
Love the smugness of these threads after we eek out a few decent wins. What fecking plan? We haven't got a clue against most teams. It doesn't take a genius to counter attack against teams that play attacking football against us.
We weren't that bad today. Chances were there and on another day we'd have won the game. I feel this dropped points performance is different to Newcastle or Bournemouth or West Ham.
We aren't Liverpool or City to have a conveyor belt of chances. Just need to look ahead now to the next games and continue with urgency in our play.
There's a plan? Short of trying to get the ball to rashford and hope for the best no I don't see a plan. I see a team full of game raisers
beat all the top 5 teams, get 1 point per game from the bottom 10
come 8th seems to be the plan
come 8th seems to be the plan
Said after City game I saw the plan, saw it again today. We’re set up and coached to play a way that won’t work against most teams in the league.
Nope still don't see it, unless it's merely to attack with 'pace and power' and be a strong counter attacking team, in which case we will always be the underdog and winning the odd cup the best we can hope for which isn't ideal for one of the biggest clubs on the planet.
This. We are extremely one dimensional in our play. We need plan B which is non existent at the moment.
To be fair I see the plan when we're up against a team that dominates the ball.
But I have no clue what the plan is against the the lower teams. The players seem to make it up as they go.
But I have no clue what the plan is against the the lower teams. The players seem to make it up as they go.
People go on as if football is rocket science and we need to see the same plays over and over.
It often works that you build your team so that it has set attributes such as pace, strength and then you let your players do what they're good at - playing football.
It often works that you build your team so that it has set attributes such as pace, strength and then you let your players do what they're good at - playing football.
We got in behind their full backs at will then consistently fecked up the crosses and shots. We had something like 27 shots today. The finishing was the main issue. Not the plan.