https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ver-sexual-assault-case-tweet-washington-postIt raises questions about how to deal with the media legacies of much-lauded individuals and which aspects of their lives to highlight in the immediate aftermath of their deaths.
So basically no evidence was put forward and the matter never reached the courts? Yet everyone seems happy to assume he was guilty?Because in the end the accuser refused to testify, after receiving hate mail, death threats and had her character and reputation questioned in public by Bryant's legal team.
Details here:That's why I asked? Why wasn't he convicted?
You know you could simply spend 30 seconds using the search function instead of continuing to be wrong?Yeah sure.
Anyway I'm glad you found yourself in M post.
Mainly because I would have had a similar feeling of sadness as most in here, until I was made aware of it, and it baffles me that others wouldn't change their opinions on knowing that. Same thing with Giggs, who was my favourite footballer from the age of about 5(obviously not anymore). I just think it's important for people to have to consider these things about these celebrities that they glorify(both in life and death). I don't believe you can just conveniently ignore these aspects of their character, if you're going to talk about how amazing they were.Is it essential we grade the level of sadness or grief of those posting in this thread?
Why have you got such a beef about this, particularly given you only read about it yesterday. Feels like your sole interest is in provoking.
Yeah this is my take on it. Innocent until proven guilty is the saying in the UK. You can't go around trying to smear someone based on your own opinion.So it seems like we're having that conversation here. I don't care either way
He wasn't convicted. The case did not even go to trial. I don't know how anyone can be convinced of his guilt with all the facts available to the public without being agenda driven.
Beyond a honest portrayal of his life (which of course would mention the sexual assault case), how should he be spoken of after his passing?
His million dollar lawyers maneuvered the victim into dropping the case. It never went to trial.That's why I asked? Why wasn't he convicted?
Read the details here. I think (hope) it will change your mind.Yeah this is my take on it. Innocent until proven guilty is the saying in the UK. You can't go around trying to smear someone based on your own opinion.
Not at all, I just found the "We can't even allow people to grieve anymore" statement a bit melodramatic.Is it essential we grade the level of sadness or grief of those posting in this thread?
Are you accusing me of being unbalanced?Why would you even question it? Balanced people don't step into a thread where people are grieving someone that they personally didn't care about to question why anyone feels the way they do just because they actually had no relation to the deceased.
So you are defending Eboue and harp on about name calling and then do the name calling yourself. Nice.Sad to have such a sudden loss of life for 8 young people, can't imagine how their families must feel.
This sudden redcafe policy of wanting to silent any negative sentiments in here is very weird, I have to admit. No one on here has known Bryant personally so it's quite random to worship his popular status on one hand ("hero", icon of the generation, transcending sport character etc), yet ban any justified notion of his sexual assault case. If you want to talk about a person's legacy (and that's all people can do on here since no one knew him personally), you can't just whitewash the negative parts or send people into another thread.
When Michael Jackson (let alone someone like Hugo Chavez) died, the thread on here was full of posts highlighting more than just his musical career.
And the pathetic members attacking @Eboue as "edgelord" or "attention-seeking" are the real hypocrites in here. Talk a high game about "now is not the place" and "let people grieve" yet go after a single poster. Anyone who has followed basketball discussions on here knows that Eboue has been vocal and consistent about his thoughts on Bryant throughout his posting history on here. Bunch of nobodies who probably knew about Bryant as much as "some bball player in LA" now attacking people who dare to question the morality of sport icons in our society really are the icing on the cake.
Wrong about what?You know you could simply spend 30 seconds using the search function instead of continuing to be wrong?
Well I never pretended that this thread should be only about grievance and positive vibes. I also didn't name anyone specifically.So you are defending Eboue and harp on about name calling and then do the name calling yourself. Nice.
I'll have a read.Read the details here. I think (hope) it will change your mind.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-...ce-the-accusers-story-and-the-half-confession
Well if the victim refused to give evidence then it would seem there was no evidence to put forward surely? Considering to prove rape the key is consent you need someone who is willing to say there was no consent to put the matter to the defendant.Who said no evidence was put forward? All I said was that the victim refused to testify and later filed a civil suit that got settled out of court.
I don't know if he's guilty or not.
Nice manouver.Well I never pretended that this thread should be only about grievance and positive vibes. I also didn't name anyone specifically.
Not necessarily. News broke when Nuggets and Rockets were already preparing for the game and all other teams would have traveled for their games as well. NBA teams play tight calendar already, including significant amount of travel. All of them have another game in the upcoming 3 days, this would derail season a bit. And how long would you actually cancel games for? Surely 1 day of grievance over something like this would not make a whole lot of difference.You do realize how naive this sounds, right?
Do you feel the best time to do that is while people are still in shock or upset about it? Why don't you get a megaphone and bellow it at his funeral?Mainly because I would have had a similar feeling of sadness as most in here, until I was made aware of it, and it baffles me that others wouldn't change their opinions on knowing that. Same thing with Giggs, who was my favourite footballer from the age of about 5(obviously not anymore). I just think it's important for people to have to consider these things about these celebrities that they glorify(both in life and death). I don't believe you can just conveniently ignore these aspects of their character, if you're going to talk about how amazing they were.
I'm not sure if you've read up on it, but it's sobering.
This is all well and good but the reasaon it shouldn't be brought up just yet ss because its not even being discussed, its just arguments whether it should be discussed or not.Sad to have such a sudden loss of life for 8 young people, can't imagine how their families must feel.
This sudden redcafe policy of wanting to silent any negative sentiments in here is very weird, I have to admit. No one on here has known Bryant personally so it's quite random to worship his popular status on one hand ("hero", icon of the generation, transcending sport character etc), yet ban any justified notion of his sexual assault case. If you want to talk about a person's legacy (and that's all people can do on here since no one knew him personally), you can't just whitewash the negative parts or send people into another thread.
When Michael Jackson (let alone someone like Hugo Chavez) died, the thread on here was full of posts highlighting more than just his musical career.
And the pathetic members attacking @Eboue as "edgelord" or "attention-seeking" are the real hypocrites in here. Talk a high game about "now is not the place" and "let people grieve" yet go after a single poster. Anyone who has followed basketball discussions on here knows that Eboue has been vocal and consistent about his thoughts on Bryant throughout his posting history on here. Bunch of nobodies who probably knew about Bryant as much as "some bball player in LA" now attacking people who dare to question the morality of sport icons in our society really are the icing on the cake.
I can understand that and I found it really weird back in the day when loads of random adults were crying about Diana dying, for example, but each to their own and how much they let these get to them I guess.Not at all, I just found the "We can't even allow people to grieve anymore" statement a bit melodramatic.
Sounds like controlled flight into terrain, then.Reports are that the helicopter (the same 13 million dollar model as Coast Guard rescue copters) was in heavy fog from Long Beach where it took off, then circled around near the LA Zoo outside Burbank airport and was apparently flying too low for radar to track attempting to follow the freeway out to Camarillo airport Reportedly heavy fog . 9 people were on board and died in total.
Several people have explained this but it's not at all the same as a megaphone at his funeral. If his family members were posters on redcafe, I would probably make my point differently. They're not.Do you feel the best time to do that is while people are still in shock or upset about it? Why don't you get a megaphone and bellow it at his funeral?
If you think it is so 'important for people to have to consider these things' why didn't you start a separate thread about it and his legacy?
I know very little about Bryant and hadn't really followed his career, but that's a pretty disturbing read and I can understand why people in here are reluctant to hero worship him as a result of it. Not sure where the outrage stems from over it.Read the details here. I think (hope) it will change your mind.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-...ce-the-accusers-story-and-the-half-confession
A rape kit, a T-shirt Bryant apparently ejaculated into and had blood on it, the victim's statements to the police, Bryant's statements to the police - these would have been put forward as evidence during a trial.Well if the victim refused to give evidence then it would seem there was no evidence to put forward surely? Considering to prove rape the key is consent you need someone who is willing to say there was no consent to put the matter to the defendant.
I think the the comment about naivety pertains to the idea that they didn't decide to postpone because of the logistical nightmare it would have been, as opposed to simply due to the amount of money it would have cost them.What's naive is thinking the NBA could or would just cancel 8 games out of the blue without thinking of the consequences.
Despite your best attempts not to acknowledge it, Kobe Bryant is an icon of basketball, sports and wider culture. That's what is on the other side of the ledger. You don't have to like him (and you obviously don't), but he was regarded as more than just a good player.Several people have explained this but it's not at all the same as a megaphone at his funeral. If his family members were posters on redcafe, I would probably make my point differently. They're not.
Furthermore, it's not like this guy was someone who invented a vaccine or was a big philanthropist but also committed a monstrous crime and people are wrestling with his legacy. He was good at putting a ball into a basket. That's what is on the other side of the ledger.
Fair enough.Several people have explained this but it's not at all the same as a megaphone at his funeral. If his family members were posters on redcafe, I would probably make my point differently. They're not.
Furthermore, it's not like this guy was someone who invented a vaccine or was a big philanthropist but also committed a monstrous crime and people are wrestling with his legacy. He was good at putting a ball into a basket. That's what is on the other side of the ledger.
In the absence of a trial where both parties would have been subject to cross examination, where the veracity of the evidence can be established... Who knows what happened for real?A rape kit, a T-shirt Bryant apparently ejaculated into and had blood on it, the victim's statements to the police, Bryant's statements to the police - these would have been put forward as evidence during a trial.
I'm having a look at the article to see if I can understand it a little more. That aside though without a supportive victim the rest is useless really.A rape kit, a T-shirt Bryant apparently ejaculated into and had blood on it, the victim's statements to the police, Bryant's statements to the police - these would have been put forward as evidence during a trial.
You missed the point. He hasnt done anything of actual good beyond be a basketball player. Sure it's kind of glib to say "put a ball into a basket" but I'm trying to drive home the point that that is his legacy. Yes he was a top 15 or 20 player all time but ultimately he was just really good at sports. He wasnt a smokejumper and he wasnt jonas salk.Despite your best attempts not to acknowledge it, Kobe Bryant is an icon of basketball, sports and wider culture. That's what is on the other side of the ledger. You don't have to like him (and you obviously don't), but he was regarded as more than just a good player.
They're a professional organization... Like I said I don't fault them for not making an impulsive decision without thoroughly examining the consequences, both monetary and logistically.I think the the comment about naivety pertains to the idea that they didn't decide to postpone because of the logistical nightmare it would have been, as opposed to simply due to the amount of money it would have cost them.
Established philanthropist.You missed the point. He hasnt done anything of actual good beyond be a basketball player. Sure it's kind of glib to say "put a ball into a basket" but I'm trying to drive home the point that that is his legacy. Yes he was a top 15 or 20 player all time but ultimately he was just really good at sports. He wasnt a smokejumper and he wasnt jonas salk.
Then that's all of sport, football too. Why even care about United or Arsenal or anyone else? They're just a bunch of guys playing sports, and each time someone wins. I doubt that's actually how you feel about all of it or you probably wouldn't be here.You missed the point. He hasnt done anything of actual good beyond be a basketball player. Sure it's kind of glib to say "put a ball into a basket" but I'm trying to drive home the point that that is his legacy. Yes he was a top 15 or 20 player all time but ultimately he was just really good at sports. He wasnt a smokejumper and he wasnt jonas salk.
Thats like saying Ronaldo is just good at hitting a ball with his feet.You missed the point. He hasnt done anything of actual good beyond be a basketball player. Sure it's kind of glib to say "put a ball into a basket" but I'm trying to drive home the point that that is his legacy. Yes he was a top 15 or 20 player all time but ultimately he was just really good at sports. He wasnt a smokejumper and he wasnt jonas salk.
Like I said, I don't know if he was guilty or not and I don't feel qualified to make a judgment.In the absence of a trial where both parties would have been subject to cross examination, where the veracity of the evidence can be established... Who knows what happened for real?
Well, he's also good at hitting it with his head but in essence, yeah. That's what he is, that's his "thing" in this world. Why is that controversial or insulting?Thats like saying Ronaldo is just good at hitting a ball with his feet.
I certainly dont have positive feelings for any arsenal player or otherwise who is credibly accused of rape.Then that's all of sport, football too. Why even care about United or Arsenal or anyone else? They're just a bunch of guys playing sports, and each time someone wins. I doubt that's actually how you feel about all of it or you probably wouldn't be here.
Look at Brendan Gibbons escaping for years and Taylor Lewan (now in the NFL) threatening his roommates rape victim that if she told anyone he would rape her again.
He is.Thats like saying Ronaldo is just good at hitting a ball with his feet.
Well, yeah, you've basically agreed with him there.Thats like saying Ronaldo is just good at hitting a ball with his feet.
