Are Martial's problems to do with the level of the team or independent of them?

[Kostur]

Martial's problems change like a fecking merry go round each season, Christ if you can name them all. Firstly it was LVG and his boring football (under whom he probably played the best), then it was changing to LW, then to RW, then it was Ibrahimović (slows down the attacks), then it was that they've taken the #9 shirt from him, then it was Lukaku (oaf, cannot link up with Martial), we've also had Mou bullying him, him leaving for his child's birth without telling anybody to make it even worse, then there was a phase when people blamed Rashford being too selfish and not passing to Martial which resulted in Martial's shit run, now it's, apparently, lack of Rashford. Then there's always classic lack of service (Martial, for some reason, seems to be the one suffering the most from aforementioned lack of service) and 'manager doesn't know how to use him' spiel.

I think that's all, not all of them are chronologically correct, there's been too much shit with him. It seems that unless the moon is in the interlunar position and all the fecking stars form some kind of a constellation he cannot hit his form. All for a player who's been here for what, 6 years now?, and who's yet to score 20 goals in all comps in a season.

 

[sunama]

This thread reminds of when people were convinced that the reason why Memphis was failing was because Shaw got injured.
Apparently, Memphis could only perform if Shaw was overlapping with him...which of course was nonsense.

My take on it is that if a player is top class, he will somehow find a way to flourish. Even if it takes him looking like the odd one out, in a group of players who are poor quality.

Martial's problems change like a fecking merry go round each season,

I do agree with this.
But I feel that Martial is the least of our worries. We have FAR WORSE problems at the club than Martial.

 

[Jibbs]

Martial's got only one problem apparently, he's a bit lazy and laid-back.

 

[Isotope]

Martial's problems change like a fecking merry go round each season, Christ if you can name them all. Firstly it was LVG and his boring football (under whom he probably played the best), then it was changing to LW, then to RW, then it was Ibrahimović (slows down the attacks), then it was that they've taken the #9 shirt from him, then it was Lukaku (oaf, cannot link up with Martial), we've also had Mou bullying him, him leaving for his child's birth without telling anybody to make it even worse, then there was a phase when people blamed Rashford being too selfish and not passing to Martial which resulted in Martial's shit run, now it's, apparently, lack of Rashford. Then there's always classic lack of service (Martial, for some reason, seems to be the one suffering the most from aforementioned lack of service) and 'manager doesn't know how to use him' spiel.

I think that's all, not all of them are chronologically correct, there's been too much shit with him. It seems that unless the moon is in the interlunar position and all the fecking stars form some kind of a constellation he cannot hit his form. All for a player who's been here for what, 6 years now?, and who's yet to score 20 goals in all comps in a season.

The same excuses some used to justify the shit show by Lingard in the past. Not playing centrally, no one understand his movement, not his best position, he needs a fast pace teammates like in England NT, his teammates are shites, the grass is too tall, etc.

 

[Kostur]

But I feel that Martial is the least of our worries. We have FAR WORSE problems at the club than Martial.

Oh yeah, no doubt. We should however stop with all the 'world class' bollocks or the 'we cannot sign X because Martial's development' bullshit though, if he couldn't stand the competition then ta ra, nothing's lost really.

 

[fps]

He just seems to pick and choose and that isn’t enough to be a top striker. He needs more strings to his bow and to be able to score more different kinds of goals and affect the game in different ways. If a defender puts in a good tackle on him early he gets very disheartened.

That said when he’s playing in tandem with Rashford they look deadly.

 

[TRUERED89]

Rashford is doing better, with less games, and playing out of position.

So you've forgotten how Rashford was being called "Rashford" and "championship level" when Martial was out injured. Is it a coincidence when Martial returned that Rashford went on another excellent run of games? Rashford did nothing in the no.9 position for months, Martial comes back, Rashford moves back to LW and all of a sudden they're both firing, that is no accident. Martial must be ecstatic about the singing of Bruno, playing infront of Lingard would make the best players demoralised leading to no runs in behind.

 

[jackal&hyde]

I don't think he has that many problems tbh. In his first season, the only one where he played as a nr 9, he was good; he had Carrick, Rooney and others providing the passes and ended with 17 goals as a very young player. Then he was miss managed by Mourinho imo and ended up as a fringe player after Sanchez was brought in. This season he had Lingard and Pereira to feed him so that's not ideal, but he is on 12 goals and on course to have his best ever scoring record for United.

I would wait until we have a decent midfield before judging him as a 9. With Bruno and Pogba in the team i can easily see him be a 25+goals a season player.

 

[passing-wind]

How does Solskjaer system cater to improve our strikers in the team ? I'm very unfavorable to Oles tactical fluidity because I believe there's not one striker in world football who will look competent in this United team. Us selling Lukaku was an implication to not being able to utilize a 9 effectively. No different to how we also fail to utilize a no 10, Mata, Lingard and Gomes have certainly underperformed to their capacity under Solskjaer.

I thinks there are truths to Rashford / Martial being able to enhance one another's performances, likely because they both open up space from the opposition defensive line catering more for their movements.

 

[Hawks2008]

Martial's problems change like a fecking merry go round each season, Christ if you can name them all. Firstly it was LVG and his boring football (under whom he probably played the best), then it was changing to LW, then to RW, then it was Ibrahimović (slows down the attacks), then it was that they've taken the #9 shirt from him, then it was Lukaku (oaf, cannot link up with Martial), we've also had Mou bullying him, him leaving for his child's birth without telling anybody to make it even worse, then there was a phase when people blamed Rashford being too selfish and not passing to Martial which resulted in Martial's shit run, now it's, apparently, lack of Rashford. Then there's always classic lack of service (Martial, for some reason, seems to be the one suffering the most from aforementioned lack of service) and 'manager doesn't know how to use him' spiel.

I think that's all, not all of them are chronologically correct, there's been too much shit with him. It seems that unless the moon is in the interlunar position and all the fecking stars form some kind of a constellation he cannot hit his form. All for a player who's been here for what, 6 years now?, and who's yet to score 20 goals in all comps in a season.

Good post. Many excuses are made for him but the fact of the matter he is 24 and had played nearly 200 games for the club. At what point is accountable for not kicking on? Rashford is showing improvement every year but for some reason that cannot be expected of Martial.

For some he will always be perfect, they're easily swayed by some close control and few one-two's but it takes more than that to make a great forward. I feel he is good but just good and won't ever be great.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I don't think he has that many problems tbh. In his first season, the only one where he played as a nr 9, he was good; he had Carrick, Rooney and others providing the passes and ended with 17 goals as a very young player. Then he was miss managed by Mourinho imo and ended up as a fringe player after Sanchez was brought in. This season he had Lingard and Pereira to feed him so that's not ideal, but he is on 12 goals and on course to have his best ever scoring record for United.

I would wait until we have a decent midfield before judging him as a 9. With Bruno and Pogba in the team i can easily see him be a 25+goals a season player.

Yup, generally these types of threads are as a result of overreactions after a certain game. Same as the "most important player", "burst bubbles" types of threads.

I reckon once he hits good form again, he'll once again become "our most important player" on here.

 

[finneh]

Martial's problems change like a fecking merry go round each season, Christ if you can name them all. Firstly it was LVG and his boring football (under whom he probably played the best), then it was changing to LW, then to RW, then it was Ibrahimović (slows down the attacks), then it was that they've taken the #9 shirt from him, then it was Lukaku (oaf, cannot link up with Martial), we've also had Mou bullying him, him leaving for his child's birth without telling anybody to make it even worse, then there was a phase when people blamed Rashford being too selfish and not passing to Martial which resulted in Martial's shit run, now it's, apparently, lack of Rashford. Then there's always classic lack of service (Martial, for some reason, seems to be the one suffering the most from aforementioned lack of service) and 'manager doesn't know how to use him' spiel.

I think that's all, not all of them are chronologically correct, there's been too much shit with him. It seems that unless the moon is in the interlunar position and all the fecking stars form some kind of a constellation he cannot hit his form. All for a player who's been here for what, 6 years now?, and who's yet to score 20 goals in all comps in a season.

Pretty much this. He's now a 24 year old with over 200 appearances at a senior level in this country. As a senior first choice centre forward at a club that has ambitions to compete at the top level and who's earning a salary indicative of someone who should be performing as such, he's falling far short. In his key position we need an upgrade to at least provide some competition in the short term and to replace him if he doesn't improve in the medium term (18 months).

 

[edgar allan]

The truth is that Lukaku is levels above him overall as a striker.

The lukaku that playedfor us??

 

[Bebestation]

I think that's the case for almost all players. Problem with Martial is, he is more of a creator than scorer. So with Rashford in the side, he had sort of perfect player to link up. Someone who can occupy the space created by Martial.

Now without Rashford, he still plays the same role but we don't have anyone to occupy those spaces and be a goal threat.

So the question is, is the player not good enough to adapt to the team or is it on Ole for not tweaking the system?

IMO, Rashford needs Martial and Martial needs Rashford to get the best out of them, especially when we already have player like Pogba missing. Tbh I was frustrated watching him play vs City, wanted him to be in the box and be a goal threat in Rashford's absence.

This.

Martial creates a whole different game for Rashford due to his positioning, him dropping deep, his kicks and flicks and turns.

When Rashford is in the team, Martial takes the central spaces to create constant wide opportunities for Rashford.

When Rashford isn't there - Martial has a totally different game to play where he is the one and only striker in the squad who has to sometimes create his chances by himself (like we saw against Liverpool by dropping deep to play a 1vs1 against Pereira) before having to take it by himself aswell.

Martial needs the attackers around him. Martial is nothing more than a central pivot. All we have had is Rashford this season, we could do with a Rashford like deadly forward on the right instead of James, Pogba back in the team, Bruno Fernandes smashing long range efforts off his tap backs etc etc.

When Martial as a tactic doesn't work we need another forward but I'm dubious whether Rashford will be as good on the left without him.

 

[gerdm07]

IMO Martial does not have enough football smarts to be a really good striker. There were two instances during the Burnley first half that make my case.

1. The cross from AWB on the right where he whiffed with his left foot. It was a hard cross so it wasn't easy to deal with, but I think most good strikers would have controlled the ball with their left on a stretch, got balanced, and hit it with their right. Martial did have some space to do this. His decision, to stretch and try to steer the ball towards goal, was almost always going to fail.

2. The pass from Matic and the dummy from Mata had him in perfect position to score. Instead, Martial takes a touch, takes another touch, and then he is tackled. This is the type of thing all strikers practice over and over, receive a pass in the box and shoot, one touch and shoot. Every intelligent striker knows you usually will not have time to take 2 touches to get a shot off in the box. At 24, I'm not sure he will ever learn this.

It just seems the game does not come natural for him. He always has to think about the situation and his thinking is usually wrong. This is also true when he attempts passes. You seem him think about the opportunity, then he thinks some more, and then his pass is easily intercepted.

 

[Raven]

Totally agree with that. He has imo been at his best since he switched to the left inside forward position.

No doubt, anyone still calling him a CF is out of their mind.

 

[stevoc]

People can say whatever they want about Martial but when you have the likes of Lingard, Pereria and even Mata playing behind you that is going to seriously limit your ability to play effectively as the central striker of a front 3.

 

[Rake]

I`d be glad to eat my words but I just don't think he is good or consitent enough. On top of that, he really isn't a natural goal scorer and would probably be better utilised as a second striker than a main pivot.

 

[Maticmaker]

Whatever Martials problems are, nobody including himself, seems to be able to find an answer.

For a long time Tony seemed to want the permanent CF role and he was at times strolling around with a face like a dead fish when this was not forthcoming from the manager. When Zlatan played CF, he sulked, when Lukaku played there he sulked, when Rashford had a go, he sulked, when he got the chance to make it his own position he still sulked, but now apparently because he was not getting the right balls, from the wide men, from the mid field, from anywhere.

At his best, the ball at his feet with strong bold runs in from the left wing, Martial can be devastating. However there are two big problems; one he demands the ball to his feet, he very rarely runs outside the defender to receive the ball on the run. Secondly his strength in coming in from the left is now well known and defences know what to do to either to over crowd him and/or run him off over the dead ball line.

Tony is in danger of becoming a 'one trick pony', he desperately needs to inject some pace into his game and he needs to learn how to draw defenders out from the middle and stop standing still making it easy for the opposition to keep tabs on him. Recently we have seen glimpses of what he's capable of, but like his countryman Pogba, you never know which Martial/Pogba you are going to get, maybe its a French thing?
However for any manager that is a nightmare.

 

[edgar allan]

Rashford is showing all the right signs. If he continues to develop the way he has been, the team needs to make sure it keeps pace

He has stepped up this year for sure but we need another to play alongside him

 

[Mick1]

12 goals whilst missing 2 months with an injury with a barely functional attack around him and a nonexistent midfield. He's doing just fine.

 

[edgar allan]

This thread reminds of when people were convinced that the reason why Memphis was failing was because Shaw got injured.
Apparently, Memphis could only perform if Shaw was overlapping with him...which of course was nonsense.
I do agree with this.
But I feel that Martial is the least of our worries. We have FAR WORSE problems at the club than Martial.

Agree with that but having an underperforming forward is a huge problem. A team not scoring will magnify all other limitations

 

[edgar allan]

12 goals whilst missing 2 months with an injury with a barely functional attack around him and a nonexistent midfield. He's doing just fine.

In the same way that our season is going just Fine

 

[P-Nut]

I think his head goes down the second he's asked to play a little wider.

I watched him live against Burnley and his runs were atrocious. Everytime we attacked down a flank he would be stood 2 feet away from the guy that would be crossing it, meaning we had no one in the box and had to recycle possession back around before inevitably losing it.

He strikes me as another player that is great on the counter, but when we have sustained possession around their box, he doesn't know where to move to open up space for himself or others.

I always don't think he's quite as deadly as we think he is, his xg for the season is 0.47 goals per 90, whilst he's actually scored 0.49 goals per 90.

Compare that to someone like Ings who is actually deadly this season and its 0.54 xg/90 and 0.76 g/90.

A deadly finisher will always outperform their xg and Martial just isn't doing that this season.

 

[Zen86]

RVP said Martial and Rashford made intelligent runs which are never picked out by the midfield or the ball playing defenders.

If a player keeps making the runs and never receiving the ball because the team around him are inept to make the pass then would he keep making the same run? We will find when Bruno plays if it is him or the team.

This. In theory, the entire team could transform with the addition of a clinical passer.

 

[Sky1981]

All flash no substance. People will still think he have a high potential, high ceiling, while in truth he's been here for almost half a decade, if 5 years isn't enough to show the world what you got then I don't think he can suddenly becomes aguero, or ever becoming one.

He's too lazy, too mentally fragile, a bottler, he's all good when there's nothing to play for, whenever top 4 was on sight he'd go back hiding.

I don't agree with you need world class XI to show your worth, you might be able to score goals more, and perform better with a better XI, but a good striker will shone wherever he goes, whoever his teammates are. You can't win match on your own, but if you put Maradonna, Henry, Ronaldo, Messi with a championship XI they'll still shine, and looks a class above the rest. Martial sulks, he can't even decide if he wants to be a bulldog or a lazy puppy, if you're shit the least you can do is run more.

Stop giving him excuse, enough is enough, 5 years is along time in football, for most guys that's half of their career, and here we are talking about "ceiling, potential"

 

[Sky1981]

Maybe every time one of our players performs poorly it's actually because the rest of the team weren't at the same level as them?

Or does this only apply to players who it isn't cool to slag off?

He can be good enough on his day but he's too inconsistent. His biggest problem is that for someone who wants to play as a striker apparently, he spends an awful lot of time looking like someone being asked to play up front who'd prefer to be playing on the wing.

Also, in spite of that, his goalscoring record isn't really all that bad. Think it'd be just under 1 every 2 games this season...you'd be paying a lot of money to get a striker who'd guarantee you better. It's just that he has games like last night, where he just doesn't look like he's trying to do anything.

he's a coward, he doesn't have the guts (or the will) to go toe to toe with tough defenders, you don't see strikers like Zlatan running away from CBs, he'll take them head on. They love to meet their marker and out cunning them. Martial is like the small boy on the field who's an introvert and seems to rather receives the ball without anyone marking him.

 

[Handré1990]

He suffers from with most of our players suffer from. He doesn't improve. I don't think I would rate him much higher than when he was 19 and joined us right now but that's a common theme with almost every player we buy. Some stagnate, some regress and that's even something that seems to happen to our own youth players once they make the step up from the reserves to the first team. First you get excited about them because you see all the promise in them but after a year or two you notice they haven't really added anything to their game and don't seem much further along in their development than they were when they broke into the first team or when we bought them.

Since I obviously don't know what our players are doing on a day to day basis I can only guess what is going behind the scenes but it's a real problem if we want to go down the route of buying younger players but can't really improve them like other teams who take that approach do.

It has happened, sure, but our latest additions (from our youth) have shown the opposite imo. Rashford and McTominay have had clear development, and have taken massive strides to become much better players. It’s still early for Williams, but the omens are favorable! Hard to say for sure, but I can’t help but think it’s a lot to do with the individual players, their mentality and hunger as it were. Rashford has had an incredible development, and still only 22.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Martial is a left forward, who can cut inside and score or assist. It's where his natural talents show and he's played his best. His biggest problem is he's just not content with the role and wants to be something else. Maybe he could work as a second striker if we played with two upfront.

However, he's not a centre-forward, and lacks the tenacity the role requires. He lacks the guile required for a fox in the box striker. He's not a winger who will run up and down the line or make crosses from the bi-line. He's not a no.10. He's poor on the right. He hasn't shown anything to suggest he can add a new dimension to his game and is reliant on his natural skill.

Rashford has taken the left forward spot and made it his own. Unless we start playing with two strikers or Martial makes a major step up or reinvents himself, I don't see a future for him at the club. Martial is too talented and on too high wages to be a bench player.

 

[OL29]

All flash no substance. People will still think he have a high potential, high ceiling, while in truth he's been here for almost half a decade, if 5 years isn't enough to show the world what you got then I don't think he can suddenly becomes aguero, or ever becoming one.

He's too lazy, too mentally fragile, a bottler, he's all good when there's nothing to play for, whenever top 4 was on sight he'd go back hiding.

I don't agree with you need world class XI to show your worth, you might be able to score goals more, and perform better with a better XI, but a good striker will shone wherever he goes, whoever his teammates are. You can't win match on your own, but if you put Maradonna, Henry, Ronaldo, Messi with a championship XI they'll still shine, and looks a class above the rest. Martial sulks, he can't even decide if he wants to be a bulldog or a lazy puppy, if you're shit the least you can do is run more.

Stop giving him excuse, enough is enough, 5 years is along time in football, for most guys that's half of their career, and here we are talking about "ceiling, potential"

 

[Denis79]

Martial is a left forward, who can cut inside and score or assist. It's where his natural talents show and he's played his best. His biggest problem is he's just not content with the role and wants to be something else. Maybe he could work as a second striker if we played with two upfront.

However, he's not a centre-forward, and lacks the tenacity the role requires. He lacks the guile required for a fox in the box striker. He's not a winger who will run up and down the line or make crosses from the bi-line. He's not a no.10. He's poor on the right. He hasn't shown anything to suggest he can add a new dimension to his game and is reliant on his natural skill.

Rashford has taken the left forward spot and made it his own. Unless we start playing with two strikers or Martial makes a major step up or reinvents himself, I don't see a future for him at the club. Martial is too talented and on too high wages to be a bench player.

I completely agree, He has now played under 3 managers, 3 different tactics and in two positions. If it doesn't work out, it's on him. Can't keep blaming that he's played out of position or that his team-mates are hindering his development. It's completely on him to make it work.

 

[Sky1981]

[

A clip from LVG era?

 

[simplyared]

He's a different player when Pogba's on the pitch!

 

[OL29]

[


A clip from LVG era?

Well you stated that whenever top 4 has been in sight, he goes missing which is a misrepresentation. Just seems a pointless stick to beat him with based on his persona, when evidence suggests that, like the team in general, he’s just inconsistent.

 

[bondsname]

I think Martial need to have world-class players around him to succeed. I often see him attempting quick one-two's but it often fails, but when he attempts it with Pogba or Rashford it always leads to a dangerous chance.

I find the criticism of his movement to be a bit over the top. He is not the type of player that makes explosive runs into the box, he likes to drop deep or to the wing to receive the ball and help out building the attack, and create space for others. Nothing wrong with having a player like that.

Just look at the team we put out versus City last night. In attack we had Martial, alongside of Lingard and Greenwood, both were replaced with Pereira and James. Lingard and Pereira are horrendous, and James and Greenwood are not yet the finished product. All City had to do was nullify Martial and they nullify our entire attack.

 

[Suedesi]

I don't know, what the fck was he supposed to do? He was completely starved of service, and anytime he got on the ball there were a bunch of City players surrounding him. When we have trouble retaining the ball, I'm not sure Martial will be of much use upfront.

 

[Suedesi]

Pointless thread. Martial has 12 goals in all comps despite missing nearly 2 months and with no midfield supply. People are getting vex at the wrong things and wrong players simply because they happen to judge players on lazy cliches like how busy they look and can't see anything past workrate and body language.

Anytime he makes a run, Lingard, Fred or Matic cannot deliver the final ball. Same with Williams or AWB - to not even mention Dan James. So after making a run and not receiving the ball, next time he doesn't make the run. And that's a problem, but people tend to ignore the problem, i.e. the inability of our midfield / wingers to supply any sort of service to the forwards.

 

[Bebestation]

I think Martial need to have world-class players around him to succeed. I often see him attempting quick one-two's but it often fails, but when he attempts it with Pogba or Rashford it always leads to a dangerous chance.

I find the criticism of his movement to be a bit over the top. He is not the type of player that makes explosive runs into the box, he likes to drop deep or to the wing to receive the ball and help out building the attack, and create space for others. Nothing wrong with having a player like that.

Just look at the team we put out versus City last night. In attack we had Martial, alongside of Lingard and Greenwood, both were replaced with Pereira and James. Lingard and Pereira are horrendous, and James and Greenwood are not yet the finished product. All City had to do was nullify Martial and they nullify our entire attack.

Great Post.

As I said - Martial is useful, we need to know when is the best time to use him & when he has all those deadly players around him so he becomes this quick one two tricks and flicks player - soon as that goes then he becomes entirely stagnant & lost on what to do & we need a completely different type of striker who does the basic thing of getting in to the box and scoring goals.

It's not his fault that he's this player who likes to drop deep and play to the players around him but when those players are trash - there is absolutely no point in him becoming a focal point in our attack either.

 

[Leftback99]

He's currently got neither quality players around him to provide for or quality players capable of providing for him. Any CF would be struggling.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Like I said, short memories.