Consistently reaching atleast the QF/SF stage of CL over the past 5 years is my criteria of European elite. And no we are not there yet.
Honestly, we are not that far away...
- Thread starter Maluco
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Consistently reaching atleast the QF/SF stage of CL over the past 5 years is my criteria of European elite. And no we are not there yet.
according to transfermarket that year we signed:
Fred
Dalot
Sanchez for around 100 million.
we sold Blind
this year we’ve signed:
Fernandes,
AWB,
Magiire
Ighalo (loan)
James
for around 200 million. But we’ve sold Lukaku, Fellaini, Darmian, Young and loaned out Sanchez and Smalling.
if you consider wages, i would say Ole has actually had less money available than Mourinho in Jose’s last year.
He is showing proof over the past months. Ofcourse we all want it to last. But if I see a drop in performance - yea that will make me change my opinion. Results can vary.
Also its a good run. Taking credit from a run which had city, Chelsea, wolves and Everton on form is misguided to say the least. I'm not comparing goals scored (which can be misleading since we scored 6 vs Tranmere) but clean sheets.
If you are measuring tangible progress by points tally (which is the only fair criteria) - it'll take a while to catch up obviously (with performances) Have patience is all I can say.
I don't consider Wolves or Sheff United anyway, and that's our level right now whether you like it or not.
The figures are actually on transfermarkt mate....
Or is this that one of those Donald Trump "facts"? I mean, he's spent almost €100m NET more
Ole NET: €142.02m
Mourinho NET per season:
1. €137.75m
2. €152.9m
3. €52.15m
Sanchez for around 100m.... hahahahhahahahahha!!! That was bollocks, and included in season 2 above ffs, not the "season he wasn't backed".
Sanchez was the end of Jan. it makes sense to include him. Sanchez’s figure was around 30 million. So I added that to your figure.The figures are actually on transfermarkt mate....
Or is this that one of those Donald Trump "facts"? I mean, he's spent almost €100m NET more
Ole NET: €142.02m
Mourinho NET per season:
1. €137.75m
2. €152.9m
3. €52.15m
Sanchez for around 100m.... hahahahhahahahahha!!! That was bollocks, and included in season 2 above ffs, not the "season he wasn't backed".
For Ole’s year you didn’t include the sale of Fellaini for around 8 million. That is included in Jose’s last year. Changing that around gives about a 15 million change as well.
So adding that in Mourinho’s net becomes around 90 million. Ole’s comes down to about 135 million.
45 million. Seems like a lot right? However Jose in his last year signed Sanchez and Fred on massive wages. Under ole we have added some moderate earners but moved on:
Lukaku, Fellaini, Young, Herrera, Darmian, Smalling, Sanchez, Valencia.
If all of those players were on 100k..: they save us roughly 42 million a season.
For a season where Jose wasn’t backed, financially he had a bigger long term impact on the club than Ole.
Things change fast. You sell Ronaldo and from an Elite, you become shit. Messi declines and from an Elite, you become shit.
We are talking about NOW.
This is our consistency level, BUT there are also other cases - the two and one leg.
EL will show that, of course, if we don't get any important injuries.
The figures are actually on transfermarkt mate....
Or is this that one of those Donald Trump "facts"? I mean, he's spent almost €100m NET more
Ole NET: €142.02m
Mourinho NET per season:
1. €137.75m
2. €152.9m
3. €52.15m
Sanchez for around 100m.... hahahahhahahahahha!!! That was bollocks, and included in season 2 above ffs, not the "season he wasn't backed".
It is convenient to ignore the outs. Sanchez /Smalling on loan. Herrera /Fellaini gone. Damian and Young gone. In an ideal world these should have been sold earlier to help recoup a bit back.
But I still think this team looks way better than Mou's did.
What? So RM and Barca are shit? They are competing for LA Liga and can guarantee atleast one will make it to CL semis.
Who’s ignoring the outs? 214m is Ole’s gross figure.
So yeah, Donald Trump facts.
Mate... you’re just wrong here. You included Fellaini in Mourinho’s figures. You didn’t include Sanchez in Mourinho’s figures (despite including Fernandes in Ole’s figures)
What competing for La Liga has to do with the fact they are shit? Recent years we've seen stranger things happening in the CL, draw and momentum has been more and more important as the players are more and more tired due to the number of matches through a year increasing.
Yes I did mate, season two that’s where Sanchez is included obviously because he was bought in season two, in the same way that an season one Bruno is included.
Don’t get me wrong here, I’m really pleased with what we’ve done with the squad even the club making decisions like getting rid of mop head when we didn’t have a manager and I can’t be happier about that, but you can’t just twist & make up figures to make up some bullshit argument that Ole spent the same as Mourinho in the season he wasn’t backed. the fact is Holly has a massively outspend that season. yes I did mate season two that’s where Sanchez is included obviously because he was born in season two in the same way that an Ollies season one Bruno is included. Euro euro don’t get me wrong care I’m really pleased with what we’ve done with the squad even the club making decisions like getting rid of mop head when we didn’t have a manager and I can’t be happier about that but you can’t just twist figures to make up some bullshit argument that Olly spent the same as Mourinho in the season he wasn’t backed the fact is Olly has massively outspend that season.
Ole has outspent all but season 2 of Mourinho.
Umm.. Maybe if they are challenging one of the top leagues in the world.. They are not so shit? Stranger things will happen because it is a knockout tie. Porto won CL - are they elite?
I meant the ones that did not fetch a fee.
La Liga is a top league when those two are strong and it is a top league only because of them. Is Bundesliga a top league?
The criterias have fallen dramatically, there are no more any top leagues besides PL - as a top I mean really dramatic, with lots of unpredictable results, interesting to watch.
I want to see football, not tactics.
Porto is not an Elite, of course, that is what I meant by stranger things have happened in the CL.
Whatever, we are on the right track and Ole must continue for at least one season. Players like him, believe in him, first time we see a good core for a future winning team.
And mostly is due to him as he keeps away the solo players that don't want to act as a team and kicked out the deadwood.
Ok, taking off Fellaini from Ole and adding it to Mourinho these are the “facts”.The figures are actually on transfermarkt mate....
Or is this that one of those Donald Trump "facts"? I mean, he's spent almost €100m NET more
Ole NET: €142.02m
Mourinho NET per season:
1. €137.75m
2. €152.9m
3. €52.15m
Sanchez for around 100m.... hahahahhahahahahha!!! That was bollocks, and included in season 2 above ffs, not the "season he wasn't backed".
Jose spent around 120 million net a season on average.
Ole has currently spent less than that per season average.
Jose took us backwards from where we were. (Won the FA Cup and 5th in the league to where we were at the end. Ole has us performing better in all cup competitions and higher in the league.
Jose had a much bigger impact on the wage bill. Ole has got that under control.
So to summarise:
Jose was backed more in the transfer market on average.
Jose was backed more with the wage budget.
Jose took us backwards in the league.
Ole has taken us higher in the league.
Jose out performed Ole in terms of cups (he won a league cup and a Europa league. Ole tbf hasn’t won anything)
To be fair we have played some fairly rubbish teams in the 3 cup competitions. The team that are top play in a farmers league who are currently 12 points clear with a game in hand and are about to win their 7th league in 8th years. The club that are 3rd are currently 37 points ahead of us.
So some context needed with this stat.
I'm sort of Ole in. But honestly we are not there yet. And I disagree with Bundesliga not being elite or measuring top leagues by the uncertainty factor.
I can see progress but to say we are close to competing for PL/CL is not true. Maybe let's wait till Dec to form an opinion on that.
Yes agreed. But it also points to progress even though a tad misguided. I am not saying we are the best in Europe. No way close. But we are getting there. Slowly.
And it also points to how Liverpool have been really lucky while we have not been so. (pls don't take this as me comparing us with pool this season.)
Yes definitely going in the right direction.
Good post, I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. I’d still have a few concerns about Koulibaly’s fitness and form this season (considering the fee for someone his age), and the pressure we’re putting on Greenwood’s ceiling... but I would be delighted with that window.
What does that have to do with wummy’s nonsense claim that Ole has only spent as much NET as Mourinho in the season Mourinho wasn’t backed @GailSpaceWynand?
Yea it had nothing. I was just saying net spend doesnt include these outs since they didn't command a fee. To replace we need to spend hence kinda misleading to compare.
Why does anyone give two hoots about how much is being spent? The only question anyone should be concerned about is - Is it being spent well? For me there is no doubting the answer to that question.
Absolutely, that is all that's important.
What? We literally just did this @Wumminator. You are proper Donald Trumping it here, you get a fact handed to you, and you just ignore it and make another outlandish claim. And now, because Ole this season has massively outspent Mourinho's final season "when he wasn't backed" you've decided to whataboutism your original debunked post and switched to "average spend per season" and still just make up an outright lie.
Ole this season has spent €214m gross, €142.02m NET.
How is €142.02m less than €120m?
Another blatant lie as shown above and in multiple previous posts.
"Backed" I'm not sure, as I don't know if United are now saying no to players Ole wants on big wages. But absolutely, the wage bill was much higher. I've already said to you, I'm well happy about what we're doing with the squad, that includes the wage bill.
Another blatant lie, Mourinho took over from LVG in 5th and left in mid-season 6th. Ole took over from Mourinho with us in 6th (and a 41.1% win-rate) and we're currently joint 5th-6th (with a 39.2% win-rate), although we're maybe even a place lower if Sheff U win their game in hand.
So as I said, right now, it's a post Donald Trump would make if he had a redcafe account.
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1.Ole has been here 18 months, not one season. So you have to average out the signings.
2.We weren’t in 5th when Mourinho got sacked were we?
Edit: just checked. We were 6th.
We are saying that every year, aren't we? "Just a few more signings and we are good" etc etc. Reality is, pretty much every year we had a good enough squad to finish at least 4th but our management team is always not up to the required standard, just like now. Of course individually strong players could make some difference but ultimately we are not reaching any sort of consistency until we find a good manager to take us forward.
So he’s “wasn’t backed” when he was caretaker? Ha ha, ok.
Even if we include months, both spent about €10m per month.
I wrote he left us in 6th (with a better win-rate believe it or not) and right now we’re joint 5th-6th with Sheff United having game in hand (and we’ve a lower win-rate).
So in what world has Ole taken us up the league so far? As always in here, patience is needed but in not in the way many of you say, patience to see where we are in May before making such outlandish claims.
Yeah, and you know who else is saying this? Other midtable teams. Wolves fans think that they are "2-3 first team players away from being a solid top 4 side". Everton fans have been saying that since time began. Sheff United fans are probably feeling this right now having seen how well their Championship 11 has fared this season. All midtable teams are 2-3 signings away from being a solid top 4 contender - we've had the squad to be that in most seasons since SAF left.
This is where it takes an educated or unbiased fan to see the wood for the trees, as it were. Take a look at how we were 'performing' under Mourinho towards the end.
In fact, take a look at how we played under Mourinho for pretty much his entire time here. Feckin' woeful, look at Tottenham now and we were the same but worse.
We get it, you don't rate Ole, so why use Mourinho's terrible spell here as any sort of benchmark.
The difference is night and day, if your willing to let go of any agenda and actually look for the improvements in key areas of both the squad and the approach.
It's clear, especially in this recent run we are on, that multiple facets have improved, crisper passing, one/two touch, movement, defending (8 clean sheets now I think?), good amount of goals scored in that time also. That's before factoring in the younger more talented squad we are building under Ole rather than a rebuild consisting of old players and clutching at straws for short term success.
Ole's rebuild is the only time we've seen a clear approach and direction, something solid to build on.
The fact is we are a few more top quality players away from being a different prospect. Yes, I know we have said that before, but this time we have the right recruitment policy and the intent to play the right way.
These people seemingly don’t watch football. How anyone cannot see the difference in how we play now and how the players actually behave vs when Mourinho was in charge, is beyond me.
I didn’t say that these players were all world class.I just said that all 4 of them(not 5) have improved the squad and all of them were good signings.Thats a very big deal to be fair,considering our track record in the transfer window over the last 7 years...
TBF, RAB is a knowledgeable season ticket holder. Let’s not snipe at each other, just because he’s wrong about this, doesn’t mean he doesn’t watch us.
This, pretty much. Refuse this, and there really isn't much more to discuss
Win tomorrow and get top 4 I will agree we are not far away. But we’ve fluffed it since SAF left 6-7 times to make that final leap which shows real progress. Ole needs to get top 4 for me. I hope he does. I see signs of a potential successful manager at times. But we can’t lower the bar for him just because he’s Ole. He’s had time, he’s had backing and getting 4th is a realistic target to set I think.