Well referring to the points deficit is neither here nor there though is it ? Pool are having a season that is quite out of the ordinary by anyones standards and in mous 2nd season we finished what was an impressive looking 2nd but were quite far away from the title in actual fact. The metrics for judging our season can't just be how far away from this seasons league leaders we are, it has to be whether there is an improvement in team spirit, quality of football, results and tactical progression combined with what the outlook for the future can be should the manager be persisted with that isn't immediately clear but is reasonable to believe in. It's not a bust for all of those criteria IMO, we have blooded in a few youngsters who should be a part of our future, gotten good memorable results against our rivals and at certain times played enjoyable football. Our biggest problems are inconsistency in both quality of football and results which is definitely on ole to some extent.
Honestly, we are not that far away...
- Thread starter Maluco
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I agree to some extent. When you have to keep making changes to your starting 11 you are likely to get such issues.
Chelsea have similar issues. Wolves, SU, Liverpool generally play the same team and no surprises they are 3 of the most consistent teams in the PL.
It’s not that out of the ordinary though is it, unless you are ignoring City’s last two titles. You need a lot more points to win titles and this will be least we’ve ever got in the Premier League era. Whatever spin you try to put on it that’s the reality.
Chelsea and Leicester have won it with modest point margins. My point is not that though, you can't just take the points difference between us and the title winner in isolation to decide whether we are making progress. It's a bit more nuanced than that.
I have always been Ole out, but I find this point contentious too. If Guardiola had to rely on players like Lingard and Pereira, often in their first team, and at least as the only options to change a game from the bench, they would be inconsistent too. This was evident in the fact that Pep struggled with much better players than that in his first season.
We are 2-3 signings away from any manager having players like Martial and Greenwood as the subs, coming to to change a very good first eleven if need be. That is a world away from the bench we have had this season, and with young players stepping up and new signings bedding in, we are very close to having a very good first eleven and a top bench too!
Doesn’t matter we’re competing against the teams and managers in this league now. In relation to what it takes to win the league based on last three seasons we really aren’t very good and haven’t progressed.
If we’re co to using to lower bar and hope teams will fall off their perch rather than be knocked off then even by those standards it’s not going very well.
It’s not more nuanced it’s open for people to be more subjective but reality is we will finish with our lowest ever Premier League points tally. If anyone has claimed that would happen at start of season they’d have been ridiculed now it’s about the nuances.
On one hand you say we are competing against the teams and managers in this league now so what happens happens in that vacuum only but then also say that we may finish with our lowest ever points tally. Doesn't that tell you it's a bit more nuanced once you get past your own confusion? There are actually more metrics than just a points tally to deduce whether or not you're making progress and are on the right track. Both pool and city had what most would call pretty ordinary seasons which people here would have called their heads for were they here before they were rightly persisted with. Im not saying ole satisfies all that necessarily, the jury is still out on him.
I can't help but wonder if people fully appreciate the disastrous position the club was when Ole took charge. The players were all over the shop; morale was rock bottom, they had regressed tactically due to being exposed to Jose's and LVG's outdated tactics, and very few (if any) were playing anywhere close to their potential. The squad was a bloated, overpaid paid mess, choc-full of players who had no right being at the club and cared not one iota for its progression. We were in complete disarray.
Ole fixed that. He sold or loaned out the problem players (admittedly leaving the squad threadbare as a result) to make way for new, United standard players who genuinely want to be at the club. He kept true to his word by giving youth a fair chance. The players are content - unlike the Jose days when we couldn't go a week without one of them complaining about something. They have faith in his approach to tactics, respect his manner on the training ground, and a large number have improved their games considerably over the course.
He's done pretty much everything right, for the most part, the only negative for me is the inconsistent results, but that's understandable given the squad is young and relatively inexperienced. Not to mention the ongoing injury crisis that has plagued us all season, on top of an already threadbare squad. That said, the positives of Ole's reign outweigh the negatives. He deserves another season in charge on that basis alone. Back him well in the summer, and I believe he will establish us as a top-three club once again, rather than one fighting over fourth, then challenging for the title the following season.
The 3-year plan in full effect.
I like your optimism. But then I was one of those who thought ole should come in after Mou left regardless. As soon as Mou was sacked I said Ole would be the best option. I thought he should be given the full time job when he had the run of good results. To this date, I remember the PSG win. I thought, finally someone who gets it. Someone who knows what the team needs and what the team should be.
I see the signings. They are good to great. I see the clear out, and that was good too. I am all for giving him one more season.
But what I fear is that the team needs 3 first team signings and our fullbacks need an offensive game in their arsenal. If he’s not backed fully, the football will be similarly inconsistent. Ole is not flexible in the football he wants to play and that is why you have to admit that our players are not playing better than sum of the parts. Fergie playing two fullbacks as wingers in FA cup and getting a result against arsenal that one season will always be the example of his mastery. Can Ole learn this on the job? Can he succeed enough in the interim that he will have the time? These are the questions I have.
This new found optimism is solely based on the month of February and the impact of Bruno. Our season was irredeemably shite until that point with little hope. One month is a very small sample to instil this level of confidence.
Let’s see how the team does between now and May, how Pogba fits in the team with Bruno and where abouts we end up on the table. If we don’t manage to gain 3 points on Chelsea and fend off Spurs and Wolves in the next 3 months, I really don’t see how one can think we’re close to challenging with 2-3 transfers. We need to have a really good second half to the season to make me believe.
Let’s see how the team does between now and May, how Pogba fits in the team with Bruno and where abouts we end up on the table. If we don’t manage to gain 3 points on Chelsea and fend off Spurs and Wolves in the next 3 months, I really don’t see how one can think we’re close to challenging with 2-3 transfers. We need to have a really good second half to the season to make me believe.
I agree with the thread title but only if Pogba stays and we add someone like Sancho this summer. With Scott, Fred, Pogba, and Bruno I think we'd have pretty solid options in the middle of the park which has been a problem area for sometime now.
Imagine if we had landed a certain Dortmund striker (yeah, can't be bothered to Google his name for the correct spelling).
Imagine if we had landed a certain Dortmund striker (yeah, can't be bothered to Google his name for the correct spelling).
No confusion I’m just staying reality of our position, as I say you can refer to subjective nuances which cannot conclusively show any progress at all. What we can confirm is this Utd team will get the lowest ever points tally at a time when you need a lot of points to win the league.
Some confusion in your points about City and Liverpool neither has seasons like this, I know that’s a common trend people like to pretend is true but it just isn’t and sooner people stop clinging to that the better.
4th place for sure. Three quality signings and 3rd for sure. Hard to imagine any realistic scenario where we are challenging for the title if we need winning points totals like the past three seasons.
Both are perfectly valid questions that all but the staunchest Ole fans would have asked themselves at some point over the last year. But they are perhaps the wrong questions considering the task Ole has undertaken, or better yet, our expectations of what Ole was meant to achieve were misplaced entirely. He warned us it would take at least three years before we would see the results of his work. Many fans chose to disregard that statement when perhaps they should have taken notice, myself included.
He was never going to be the next Fergie, nor was he meant to be, he has been employed primarily to lay the foundations for a tactically superior manager to take advantage of down the line. He was brought in to do the dirty work that his more distinguished peers would not even consider an option. Think about it, he cleared out the deadwood knowing it would leave his squad threadbare for the upcoming season, he promoted youth knowing fully well it would negatively impact results, and he made sure to purchase young players with the future firmly in mind.
He could be acting as the sacrificial lamb, the manager we need right now rather than the one we want. Just my opinion.
No, it's based on what we have witnessed since Ole took charge to the present day.
I'll take your word for it. If, bar the last month, you'd seen anything in the previous 14 that suggested we're not far off, I'd imagine you were talking about relegation rather than challenging.
Excellent post and sums up my feelings exactly. The discontent has gone save for Pogba and Riola. The other positive you can add is that results against the other big teams have been excellent i.e. double over city at the Etihad, double over Chelsea at the bridge. That is a huge indicator of managerial ability for me.
Ole is bringing in the right players. His 4 signings so far have been very good whilst getting rid of 8 or 9. All we need now is to bring 1 more world class attacker, Sancho would do nicely. 2 additions would be good but if all we did this summer was bring in a world class talent for that right side then we would finally have a squad that looks balanced. For that alone Ole deserves huge credit.
You can only see those players making the cut because the other teams are performing at the moment. If we add two top players and play great next season then most people would say most of our players would get in. That is how it works, the players in an in form team often seem better than they are. Players in an out of form team often look worse than they are.
The only thing we are lacking is consistency which means that we have had good periods and bad, so yes I’ve seen signs of optimism throughout his time here.
What makes me laugh is people like to add to what constitutes progression (not saying you have, more people I know);
- Have players improved under Ole? I would argue a lot have yes,
- Have the players brought in under Ole been a success? I would argue yes,
- Has he got rid of players not up to standard or wanting out? Most definitely but there were so many it can’t be done in one window.
- Have we played well against the other top 6 teams? I’d say so
- Has he delivered on promoting youth? Absolutely
I don't really see any player improvement, personally. Fred has improved but he was a player new to the league that simply needed time to adjust. I think looking at the rest of the players that were here their output is not better than it used to be. On the opposite side of Fred there's Lingard and Lukaku who became considerably worse under Ole than they were under Mourinho. If he was improving the players themselves and the squad, then how is he doing worse than all his predecessors results-wise?
Positives:
- Plays youth
- Good transfers (buys well, sells dross) and good transfer strategy (youth and hungry players)
The negatives to me are:
- Very one dimensional team tactics
- In game team management
To expand on the negatives... We only know how to play on the counter (hence good against top 6) and struggle massively against teams that set to defend and counter us (shit results against all other teams bar top 6). And I can't recall the last time he successfully changed a game with tactics or subs, something other managers do frequently. This squad isn't good enough to challenge for the title but it's better than Leicester's and they're 8 points ahead of us.
In other words, while he's improving the team roster, I think Ole himself as a manager has not gotten the best out of his team and doesn't seem to be improving himself. Which means we're not really getting closer. Because if he doesn't get better with his tactics/coaching and in-game management, the results will continue to be poor and then he'll get sacked. And then a new manager will come in, upend the good transfer strategy and youth policy (the good things) and we're back at square 1.
The team might be 3 players away from challenging on paper. But football is not played on paper.
I am Ole out but I think some of the things Ole has done has been brilliant. His recruitment has been shrewd, slow but effective. We should have got Bruno in the summer but better late than never. Maguire was needed and is now starting to show the leadership we lacked for years at the back, AWB whether he will be first choice or not in a few years is a good player to have in the group. I also think Ighalo was a good deal to make on the last day of the window regardless of how long he stays.
Performances for whatever reason in some players have also seen a massive improvement on last season, Fred, Mctominay and Rashford have all improved greatly. We have also seen the introduction of some exciting youth players like Greenwood and Williams. It still confuses me why we have not seen more of Gomes or Garner as i feel these two deserve that chance. If he feels they are not ready, loan them out. Ole has also given a chance to other academy players like Andreas and Lingard but it has not worked out. Also a mention to Tuanzabe, had it not been for injury, this guy would be a starter with maguire.
In addition to the above, there has been an improvement in the fluffy stuff too. Incan see a noticeable uplift in the players, there is more togetherness and i think Ole has handled this Pogba drama well.
The biggest issue with Ole and his staff is he cannot coach at this level. His tactics are abysmal, he is slow at changes, implements a new formation in March in a must win game. Some of his comments in the press conferences make me cringe. I do think though, should we get Poch in the summer, Ole has helped stable a sinking ship somewhat and started to implement a strategy. It won't be a popular opinion here but i would be happy to see Ole in a strategy role (not sporting director), a role where we he can help support a sporting director build a vision for this club. We need a proper coach to manage the team, Poch is a no brainer and I really hope we see him in the summer.
Performances for whatever reason in some players have also seen a massive improvement on last season, Fred, Mctominay and Rashford have all improved greatly. We have also seen the introduction of some exciting youth players like Greenwood and Williams. It still confuses me why we have not seen more of Gomes or Garner as i feel these two deserve that chance. If he feels they are not ready, loan them out. Ole has also given a chance to other academy players like Andreas and Lingard but it has not worked out. Also a mention to Tuanzabe, had it not been for injury, this guy would be a starter with maguire.
In addition to the above, there has been an improvement in the fluffy stuff too. Incan see a noticeable uplift in the players, there is more togetherness and i think Ole has handled this Pogba drama well.
The biggest issue with Ole and his staff is he cannot coach at this level. His tactics are abysmal, he is slow at changes, implements a new formation in March in a must win game. Some of his comments in the press conferences make me cringe. I do think though, should we get Poch in the summer, Ole has helped stable a sinking ship somewhat and started to implement a strategy. It won't be a popular opinion here but i would be happy to see Ole in a strategy role (not sporting director), a role where we he can help support a sporting director build a vision for this club. We need a proper coach to manage the team, Poch is a no brainer and I really hope we see him in the summer.
Not far from having a first 11 we like and can challenge if they all stay fit but some way off having the squad depth needed to ensure you’re in all the top competitions until late and have every eventuality covered.
As a rule, I am very wary of posts/threads that behave like we've already signed players before we've signed them. They generally don't age well...
Progress always is generally subjective though - what you were compared to what you are - and you don't realise it but you contradicted yourself in that post. If 'our lowest ever points tally' is still enough to see us finishing.. let's say 4th, that is an accurate reflection of where we are in the league as we only compete against other teams and managers even if the league leaders are 40 points ahead of us, just like if we finish 6th and are say only 10 points behind the league leaders that is also an accurate reflection of our position.
And re City n Pool i'm referring to the seasons Pep and Klopp had where they finished 4th and outside the CL places - in pool's case they had like over 2 seasons of performances which the knee jerking lot here would have hardly put up with - which had they done it over here people would have complained that they are too far away from the summit and should be on borrowed time. this was my point about subjectively gauging progress which has a context to it other than just your league position.
Exactly, we have done okay to be where we are with the players you mention. There were times in the season we were relying on Dan James to create for us.
I too have been Ole out but, also feel he needs to be given till the end of the season now he has a decent group of players to select from.
Stop insulting the twats
There is also the difference in quality. I think there is a legitimate possibility that Ole might be the guy to get this team to the next level. While there certainly exists signs that he isn't a top level manager (backed up with his lack of experience) there is also signs of clear improvement to the team so he has gotten some things right. For me it's enough to be hopeful anyways. If the squad continue to improve to the point we're challenging but not quite getting the results to match the performances, I'd say that would be the time to change manager. Unless of course before then we feck up in the transfer-window, stop our improvement and finish something like 8th next season. It wouldn't make much sense to keep Ole at that point, and especially not Ed.
More than end of season, he needs the summer to bring in players and then let’s see how we do next year. I trust him with building the squad. Unless we lose every game from now until the end of the season, we should stay the course. I’ve always been of the opinion that, unless the team is in clear decline, keep him on. The manager is not making this team worse, and in fact we are clearly a better side now than we were when he first took over and won 10 in a row.
Yes, but I think his position needs to be reviewed at the end. For example, if we get top 5/6 and we have played good football not like the Burnley game, I would keep him because he has shown to be good in the market.
Secondly, he is improving certain players and has got rid of players as well. the squad is taking good shape, first time in a while I can say that.
The downside is we keep conceding silly goals, I liked the way we have played since the winter break, Everton first half was a very good performance.
If we can produce that football go 1/2 goals up then take a breather and play on the counter like Watford, we can be a good team.
Nope in Klopp’s first full season they didn’t have a season like this they finished 4th with a much better points tally, Ole is at same stage now and if he was performing to that level there wouldn’t be any debate about his job. There rewriting of history is just tedious.
No contradictions just pointing out it’s our lowest ever points tally and there is a good chance it would probably take our highest ever tally to win the league in next couple of seasons. That’s the reality of the situation whatever metric you want to use.
I”ve always maintained that Ole should be given time until the end of the season to turn things around,and it looks like things are getting better.Dont want to get too carried away cause we”ve had innumerable false dawns these last 6-7 years,but it really looks like this team is beginning to flourish now.
The most encouraging thing is that our last 4 signings have all been successes.James,Bissaka,Maguire and Bruno have all improved the squad so we”ve done very well in the last 2 transfer windows.If our next 4 signings are as good as these 4,then we”ll be back in business..,,
Easy now. 2 of the 5 signings look like they could play for a title challenging side. The other 3, not so much. And I like AWB, he's a very very good defender, he hasn't yet convinced me that he's a right back that could take us all the way to the next level.
Well said, mate. People go overboard, they've been solid signings but most of them have just been that, nothing special just solid reinforcements. That's fine, by the way. There's just no need to go overboard and strive for positivity.
Who's going overboard?
Maguire is our captain and probably/maybe/I dont know somewhere top 4-5 in his position in the league.
Bruno has how many MOTM on here so far?
James is doing quite well for a young player at a big club. Doubt anyone expected him to play this much.
AWB is great in defense and by the looks of it improving when attacking.
Anyone saying much more then this about our new players? They've all imrpoved us. You said as much yourself..
So if we added 3 players to the existing squad. Sancho, Grealish, Zakaria, don't you think we'd have a quality first 11?
Pogba, Bruno, Zakaria with Grealish backup to the creative players in midfield.
AWB, Bailly/Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw/Williams is a very capable backline.
Rashford, Martial, Sancho with Grealish also deputising for Rashford.
Grealish would get lots of minutes due to his ability to play in a number of advanced roles. Also if you compare our potential midfield, defence and attack to Liverpool, then I don't believe we would be far off. Our midfield options are better than Liverpool's from a creative view point. Zakaria would bridge the gap in a deeper role and would match up well with Fabinho.
Defensively Liverpool have the advantage with VVD, Matip and Gomez. Their CBs allow them to play the highline due to their pace which helps in defending space in behind. They're also adept at defending deep and in VVD have the best CB in the league. Their fullbacks also are very good going forward and help with transitioning play which is a advantage for them. Allison in goal is also a advantage due to his sweeper/distribution capabilities.
I also don't think our prospective front 3 is too far behind theirs. Rashford, Martial, Sancho would match up well with Mane, Firminho, Salah IMO.
Liverpool could sign someone and improve on their central options. But IMO it's harder to improve from a position of strength. From our perspective I don't think we'll be equipped to win the league but I honestly believe we would be two players away from mounting a serious challenge. A CB like Ibrahima Konate and a LB potentially would complete the turn around.
I also understand that negativity and paranoia has engulfed large parts of the forum so i'm not expecting many to be on board with my line of thinking.
Pogba, Bruno, Zakaria with Grealish backup to the creative players in midfield.
AWB, Bailly/Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw/Williams is a very capable backline.
Rashford, Martial, Sancho with Grealish also deputising for Rashford.
Grealish would get lots of minutes due to his ability to play in a number of advanced roles. Also if you compare our potential midfield, defence and attack to Liverpool, then I don't believe we would be far off. Our midfield options are better than Liverpool's from a creative view point. Zakaria would bridge the gap in a deeper role and would match up well with Fabinho.
Defensively Liverpool have the advantage with VVD, Matip and Gomez. Their CBs allow them to play the highline due to their pace which helps in defending space in behind. They're also adept at defending deep and in VVD have the best CB in the league. Their fullbacks also are very good going forward and help with transitioning play which is a advantage for them. Allison in goal is also a advantage due to his sweeper/distribution capabilities.
I also don't think our prospective front 3 is too far behind theirs. Rashford, Martial, Sancho would match up well with Mane, Firminho, Salah IMO.
Liverpool could sign someone and improve on their central options. But IMO it's harder to improve from a position of strength. From our perspective I don't think we'll be equipped to win the league but I honestly believe we would be two players away from mounting a serious challenge. A CB like Ibrahima Konate and a LB potentially would complete the turn around.
I also understand that negativity and paranoia has engulfed large parts of the forum so i'm not expecting many to be on board with my line of thinking.
Can't help feeling that we have already signed Pogba's "replacement" in getting Fernandez - I know they don't play in the same position but I reckon this is how the club sees it after knowing he will be sold in the summer.
If that's the case I'm ok with that as long as we are able to recruit well enough in the summer.
I don't think there is any way Pogba will be here next season. Happy to be proven wrong though.
If that's the case I'm ok with that as long as we are able to recruit well enough in the summer.
I don't think there is any way Pogba will be here next season. Happy to be proven wrong though.
Happy to see you proven right!
Its barking, mate. They excel in the same bloody position. The only way we accommodate both is Pogba playing deep which has already caused unrest with him in the past and proven to be detrimental to the team too. He's gone, we've replaced him and will add another 1-2 midfielders out of his fee, it's all good.
He is too one dimensional to succeed. That is his problem. If he gets the basics right like set pieces even with these players he could have won more points. But he is either too stubborn(which I think is after a full season since he took over) or he does not see those. I am sure that even the most diehard Ole in people would accept this that our set pieces are the worst and he certainly needs to vary those.