Could they void the PL due to the Coronavirus? | No | Resuming June 17th

[Bullhitter]

There is a stronger reason to void, than handing out trophies like a gift in a packet of cornflakes (when a team hasn't achieved the requirements for a trophy) or relegate when a team isn't mathematically relegated. I'm not sure why you think null and void or curtailed isn't strong. You need to separate conditions of achievement and evidence the season cannot be completed before contracts expire and UEFAs deadline from bias.

I'll never want Liverpool to win, but they simply haven't met the conditions to be award the title.

Each European league has their own decision to make if seasons can't be played out. In terms of England the only title worth considering is the PL winner, all other divisions are more gateways. If Liverpool were 6, 9, 12 points ahead I would not be okay with them being crowned champions with the number of games left. As things stand I would be more than fine with it so overwhelming is the probability.

I am fundamentally against relegating anybody if the season is not completed in full, I can't repeat that enough though I am putting in a good effort

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Just so this is clear (to certain Utd posters mainly), three European countries have now said there will be no more football. That's it. Now pay attention certain Utd posters:

Belgium - announced league winner despite 9 more games to be played (ask any Belgian poster on here)

Holland - about to announce Ajax league winners despite leading the table...drum roll... on goal difference. In fact I counted at least any of the top 10 teams are still mathematically in with a chance of being league champions

Scotland - Celtic being announced winners despite Rangers well in it mathematically. Worse still for, legal nightmare folks here, Hearts are being relegated despite 6 other teams that could still take their place if the season was played out

England? - null and void it, innit

Are all of those leagues honouring the current positions of the relegation zones as final standings?

In the PL, the bottom 3 going down would be much more controversial than Liverpool winning the league.

 

[Member 101269]

If there is a 6 months delay to resume football, then voiding the season has no impact on that, doesnt matter if we resume this season or start a new one in that respect.

As soon as you move passed June you're impacting on preparations and income for the next season; the further you go into 20/21 the less likely income streams for that season will be fulfilled

Each European league has their own decision to make if seasons can't be played out. In terms of England the only title worth considering is the PL winner, all other divisions are more gateways. If Liverpool were 6, 9, 12 points ahead I would not be okay with them being crowned champions with the number of games left. As things stand I would be more than fine with it so overwhelming is the probability.

I am fundamentally against relegating anybody if the season is not completed in full, I can't repeat that enough though I am putting in a good effort

There is nothing like duality.. predict the title winner be not anything else. I'm in danger of calling it the Packet of Cornflakes Title, titles aren't won on predictions they're achieved by meeting conditions.

Should Chelsea ever become good enough to win a gateway do you want me to remind you as you're celebrating?


Since I have used my three posts. im done for the day

 

[Dumbstar]

Are all of those leagues honouring the current positions of the relegation zones as final standings?

In the PL, the bottom 3 going down would be much more controversial than Liverpool winning the league.

So much vagueness in the news. Even the Belgian cancellation, though likely, is still awaiting ratification next week.

Edit: Waasland are in last place but mathematically can creep out of the relegation spot on the back of one game.

Edit 2: the top playoffs = 9 more games where any team from the top five had a decent mathematical chance to be crowned champions. Bolded below.

Dug this out from a BBC article today:

Belgian Pro League - cancellation expected to be ratified
On Monday, a meeting of the Belgian Pro League's general assembly will take place and is expected to ratify the proposal to cancel the season.

Belgium's will become the first major European league to be cancelled because of coronavirus.

Club Bruges will be declared champions with the current league table set to stand.

There was one match of the regular season remaining when the league was suspended, with play-offs due to decide the top positions.

 

[Bullhitter]

There is nothing like duality.. predict the title winner be not anything else. I'm in danger of calling it the Packet of Cornflakes Title, titles aren't won on predictions they're achieved by meeting conditions.

Should Chelsea ever become good enough to win a gateway do you want me to remind you as you're celebrating?


Since I have used my three posts. im done for the day

Chelsea have nothing to do with the discussion but knock yourself out.

The lower leagues are gateways, the main aim of L1 clubs at the start of the season is not to win the L1 title but to get to the Championship. If you offered them the choice between being L1 champions and staying in L1 or finishing 2nd and getting promoted 100% would choose the latter.

You can have a differing opinion on Liverpool and the title but probabilities are a real thing and when they give an overwhelming likelihood it is more than reasonable to go with them. Decisions which are not 100% conclusive or guaranteed are taken on much more important matters than a PL title otherwise there'd be multiple millions of people hanging around on life support machines.

 

[jymufc20]

I wish some would just own their bias. It's a football forum bias is allowed but there's no need to dress it as anything else. Some will genuinely think what they are claiming is the fairest solution but there are a lot of United fans putting a lot of effort into trying to argue a case for null and voiding without having a particularly strong case behind it and it's clear in some cases it boils down to pretty much "I don't want Liverpool winning the title or Leeds getting promoted" which is fine but just say that?

I don't want Liverpool winning the title or Leeds getting promoted.

 

[Shark]

I wish some would just own their bias. It's a football forum bias is allowed but there's no need to dress it as anything else. Some will genuinely think what they are claiming is the fairest solution but there are a lot of United fans putting a lot of effort into trying to argue a case for null and voiding without having a particularly strong case behind it and it's clear in some cases it boils down to pretty much "I don't want Liverpool winning the title or Leeds getting promoted" which is fine but just say that?

I don't want Liverpool winning the title or Leeds getting promoted.

 

[Fox_Chrys]

As soon as you move passed June you're impacting on preparations and income for the next season; the further you go into 20/21 the less likely income streams for that season will be fulfilled

A game is a game, if games are still been played then income streams will be the same, also one of two things will happen.

Either we will have a system where games can be played regularly, and in that situation this season could be done within 3-4 weeks. The overall impact on a new season is almost nothing from that, its just delayed a month which can be mitigated by removing breaks.

Or we will be struggling to schedule games, in that situation, in all likely hood a new season wouldn't be viable. But finishing this one would possibly be as its 1/4 of the games. You cant say new season is more important than the existing, that's just wrong.

 

[Red00012]

Bundesliga set to resume on 9th May

 

[Redcy]

A game is a game, if games are still been played then income streams will be the same, also one of two things will happen.

Either we will have a system where games can be played regularly, and in that situation this season could be done within 3-4 weeks. The overall impact on a new season is almost nothing from that, its just delayed a month which can be mitigated by removing breaks.

Or we will be struggling to schedule games, in that situation, in all likely hood a new season wouldn't be viable. But finishing this one would possibly be as its 1/4 of the games. You cant say new season is more important than the existing, that's just wrong.

It is financially. Completing next season is way more financially sound than trying to finish this season at its expense.

Its not a matter of 3-4 weeks of playing, its a matter of how long before players could play again. Assuming clubs could reopen for training say in June, most teams would need one month of training, at which point they would start playing. Yes its true that teams could play through that to finish in time.

HOWEVER:

1) The solution probably has to apply across all leagues
2) No way are we playing in front of crowds before August/September
3) BCD for the EFL is a killer, and would require significant funding (£70-80m)
4) If we play BCD what happens if one team falls foul of Coronavirus infections?
5) How are we testing all these people? At the moment the only available quick tests are about 30-40% accurate and we cant get them. Each game needs 200 people to run BCD.

This is why it seems likely we wont resume before August/September. If we start back in September then we can assume it takes 4 weeks to finish this year, then a break, then start again.

Again all these are potentially feasible but at the moment it seems there are too many unknowns. Hence we have 200 pages.

 

[Zexstream]

Bundesliga set to resume on 9th May

How long until suspended again?

 

[Redcy]

Bundesliga set to resume on 9th May

Still huge difference between us and them, they are doing 750k tests a day and don't have anywhere near the infection rate. Plus this might be affected by the latest news that infection rates were increasing after lockdown was removed.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Chelsea have nothing to do with the discussion but knock yourself out.

The lower leagues are gateways, the main aim of L1 clubs at the start of the season is not to win the L1 title but to get to the Championship. If you offered them the choice between being L1 champions and staying in L1 or finishing 2nd and getting promoted 100% would choose the latter.

You can have a differing opinion on Liverpool and the title but probabilities are a real thing and when they give an overwhelming likelihood it is more than reasonable to go with them. Decisions which are not 100% conclusive or guaranteed are taken on much more important matters than a PL title otherwise there'd be multiple millions of people hanging around on life support machines.

Agreed. It's not impossible that Liverpool could lose the league, but it's highly improbable.

Their position is equivalent to a team that's 5-0 up with 30 seconds to go. If the floodlights failed in that situation, you'd award the result, no question. So, if the season can't be completed, we should award Liverpool the title IMO.

All the promotion/relegation decisions should be rendered null and void because there's too much money at stake. It's not fair on the clubs involved.

Anyway, all this debate is academic because the PL will try to finish the season at all costs, to avoid the massive TV fine.

 

[Gio]

It is financially. Completing next season is way more financially sound than trying to finish this season at its expense.

That's not the key financial driver for lower league clubs. If lower league clubs are playing behind closed doors next season, they are stuffed either way, whether it's resuming this season's games or starting the next one.

For the top leagues it's the fine detail in contracts with TV companies that will dictate, which varies across leagues and providers, which makes it a minefield for consistency.

 

[Redcy]

That's not the key financial driver for lower league clubs. If lower league clubs are playing behind closed doors next season, they are stuffed either way, whether it's resuming this season's games or starting the next one.

For the top leagues it's the fine detail in contracts with TV companies that will dictate, which varies across leagues and providers, which makes it a minefield for consistency.

Agreed I meant for higher league clubs, the discussion on BCD is the post after that really. If we can play in front of crowds then halting this season to start a new one makes sense, if completing this would affect next year

 

[Random Task]

@Bullhitter

I don't want Liverpool winning the title or Leeds getting promoted.

Bias owned.

 

[Shark]

Each European league has their own decision to make if seasons can't be played out. In terms of England the only title worth considering is the PL winner, all other divisions are more gateways. If Liverpool were 6, 9, 12 points ahead I would not be okay with them being crowned champions with the number of games left. As things stand I would be more than fine with it so overwhelming is the probability.

I am fundamentally against relegating anybody if the season is not completed in full, I can't repeat that enough though I am putting in a good effort

United and Chelsea are two points in distance for a CL spot, with United having a highly favorable run in after Spurs away, but basing stuff on predictions is a wobbly path. If you grant Liverpool a title which they haven’t yet won, you have to apply it to literally everything else or its plain bullshit for the rest of the league.

 

[Dumbstar]

@Bullhitter

I don't want Liverpool winning the title or Leeds getting promoted.

Bias owned.

Welcome to the Redcafe #metoo campaign.

 

[Shark]

Agreed. It's not impossible that Liverpool could lose the league, but it's highly improbable.

Their position is equivalent to a team that's 5-0 up with 30 seconds to go. If the floodlights failed in that situation, you'd award the result, no question. So, if the season can't be completed, we should award Liverpool the title IMO.

All the promotion/relegation decisions should be rendered null and void because there's too much money at stake. It's not fair on the clubs involved.

Anyway, all this debate is academic because the PL will try to finish the season at all costs, to avoid the massive TV fine.

As long as it’s not impossible, it’d be a farce to award it, or else what’s the point in a league table at all?

 

[TheLord]

I have always maintained that abandoning this season, without declaring any winner, and with no team promoted or relegated is the fairest of all unfair conclusions. Unfortunately, with the recent developments around Europe, and the sentiments expressed in mainstream media, I get the feeling that this season's league standings will stay put, Liverpool will be declared winners (with an asterisk or two) and the bottom-three teams will be relegated. Unfair, I know.

 

[esmufc07]

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[MysticRed]

I reckon the games will be played to determine the final positions. If they can’t then it will be based in current positions, but they may decide to not relegate anyone and we have a prem league of 22/23 teams next year.

 

[dwd]

I reckon the games will be played to determine the final positions. If they can’t then it will be based in current positions, but they may decide to not relegate anyone and we have a prem league of 22/23 teams next year.

Yeah adding more games for next season seems like a solid idea.

 

[Heinzesight]

Club Bruges will be declared champions with the current league table set to stand.

There was one match of the regular season remaining when the league was suspended, with play-offs due to decide the top positions.

Difficult to comparing a league with a different format to the PL.

Brugge ‘top’ at the end of the league so I can kind of see why they’ll been awarded it as mathematically (without playoffs) they were champions. The relegation part of the Belgian situation is harsh though.

 

[RobinLFC]

Difficult to comparing a league with a different format to the PL.

Brugge ‘top’ at the end of the league so I can kind of see why they’ll been awarded it as mathematically (without playoffs) they were champions. The relegation part of the Belgian situation is harsh though.

That's the weirdest reasoning I've read in this thread I think. Liverpool are also mathematically champions (without the last 9 games). What the feck The playoffs in Belgium are as much part of the season as the last 9 games of the PL.

Bruges aren't top at the end of the league either. They're top at the first phase of the league, which means the grand total of nothing.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Agreed. It's not impossible that Liverpool could lose the league, but it's highly improbable.

Their position is equivalent to a team that's 5-0 up with 30 seconds to go. If the floodlights failed in that situation, you'd award the result, no question. So, if the season can't be completed, we should award Liverpool the title IMO.

All the promotion/relegation decisions should be rendered null and void because there's too much money at stake. It's not fair on the clubs involved.

Anyway, all this debate is academic because the PL will try to finish the season at all costs, to avoid the massive TV fine.

You cant award Liverpool the league and not tell everyone else to fcuk off and accept their positions. Yes they were inevitable winners but they hadn't done it mathematically so that will, or should, have a baring on any discussions of what happens.
But doing that sees and Bournemouth get relegated on -1 of a GD, and Villa go down to even though they have a game in hand which a win could see them out of relegation trouble for that week.

Its either full end of season and table as is stands for all teams , or a null and void scenario where nobody wins anything, nobody is relegated and everyone starts as you were for next year.

Its a clusterfcuk either way and there are going to be some very unhappy clubs at the end of it.
The only way out scar free is if by some miracle the season is played out at some stage - and I hope it is for the integrity of the competition.

 

[stevoc]

Not directly no,

Lets keep it that way.

but we were at the same time arguing different sides of the same debate. Just guaging whether you were actually looking to debate the issue as your repeated use of the word guarantee doesn't indicate you are.

In your opinion.

Nobody is claiming anybody is guaranteed anything so as i said if that's your immovable barometer then it makes little sense to even engage offering the other side.

Is that so.

 

[groovyalbert]

Saw some Arsenal fans posting bits and bobs about UEFA coefficient scores for the last 5 seasons being used to determine qualification to next season's UEFA tournaments, meaning Arsenal would be in line to get UCL place.

Anyone heard anything/got more on this?

 

[duffer]

Yeah adding more games for next season seems like a solid idea.

I'd personally love 2 games a week for the whole of next season!

 

[McGrathsipan]

I reckon the games will be played to determine the final positions. If they can’t then it will be based in current positions, but they may decide to not relegate anyone and we have a prem league of 22/23 teams next year.

Cant see the expansion unless the League Cup is scrapped or only played out minus the PL teams. That might work

 

[Finn MacCool]

Welcome to the Redcafe #metoo campaign.

If Usain Bolt or Rory McIlroy takes this up it will really take off.

 

[stevoc]

Every team would not be losing the same level of opportunities.

Arguably but every team will be losing out on opportunities to win the league, qualify for the CL/EL, finish top 10, get out of the relegation or indeed into it. No positions are finalized yet, so as i said voiding the season treats every club equally, no club is losing out on a position they had secured.

Regarding who gets relegated it doesn’t matter if we dont yet know who they are if the season is finished 3 will go down.

Changed your tune there.

Maybe this will help you understand:

If the season is voided will it affect Liverpool, Leicester, Palace, Burnley, Norwich and Villa equally? Answers on a postcard.

Null and voiding the season affects all 20 teams equally, everything they did is effectively erased and they all start back at square one as if the 19/20 season never happened.

Hope this helps you understand

Now banter aside i do hope we are in a position to finish this season over the next few months, i'm only suggesting what i think is the fairest solution if the season can't be completed.

No one could say Liverpool don't deserve the title, but if the season can't be completed i don't see any fair way of giving Liverpool the title without other teams being unfairly treated if their current positions are made final too.

How would you feel if they voided the season but gave Liverpool an honourary title of some sorts?

 

[stevoc]

A game is a game, if games are still been played then income streams will be the same, also one of two things will happen.

Either we will have a system where games can be played regularly, and in that situation this season could be done within 3-4 weeks. The overall impact on a new season is almost nothing from that, its just delayed a month which can be mitigated by removing breaks.

Or we will be struggling to schedule games, in that situation, in all likely hood a new season wouldn't be viable. But finishing this one would possibly be as its 1/4 of the games. You cant say new season is more important than the existing, that's just wrong.

Not a chance it could be done in 3-4 weeks, even setting aside the need for a mini pre-season before a restart. Some teams have potentially 18 games left in the season if they go all the way in cups.

How can 2-3 weeks training and 18 games be completed in 3-4 weeks?

 

[Alvaro Maestre]

What about a playoff betweeen the top 6 teams to decide the tittle?

And a playoff between the bottom 6 to decide who gets relegated?

All games played in a neutral ground , lets say Istanbul .

That would make sure the best team wins the title and viceversa.

 

[DoubleDinhos]

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It would be an absolute joke if Barrow don't go up. Looking at their first time back in the football league for 40 years.

 

[Ian Reus]

No licensed events, just to be clear

Just underground raves then? Cool.

 

[MysticRed]

Cant see the expansion unless the League Cup is scrapped or only played out minus the PL teams. That might work

Yeah I agree I think they will need to scrap it or have one leg (do they do replays now? I seriously don’t know as it’s a cup most people don’t care for), or make it a non-premier trophy as you say. Scrap it I say. Got enough better trophy’s and competitions.

 

[MysticRed]

Yeah adding more games for next season seems like a solid idea.

It’s only an extra 4-6 games spread over the course of an entire season. Not beyond the realms of well paid professional footballers is it. Cancel league cup if you want.

 

[Ludens the Red]

This means it is almost certainly now impossible for the KNVB to finish the Eredivisie or Keueken Kampioen Divisie seasons. The games cannot be played without fans, as it will still require police to be present.


https://www.football-oranje.com/ere...-football-in-the-netherlands-until-september/

Basically the mayor's in Holland won't provide policing for games behind closed doors till Sep at the earliest.

Can't say I blame them. It would be a joke to use such valuable resources at this time.

To be honest, this method of thinking needs to start changing. People and the powers that be need to accept that this virus isn’t going away quickly. Do they think in September the virus is self aware and is gonna be like “oh shit they’ve given us till September and then we can’t spread anymore”.

This whole thing of setting dates and deadlines should just stop really, its stupid and pointless. It’s time to move on from these methods and try to figure out ways to work things through with the virus still working it’s way through the world. That is the next step. Rules and regulations are being adjusted everywhere, that is going to need to happen within football too and the requirement for ‘certain resources’ at games will have to be adjusted.

There isn’t going to be a time where there are zero infections and zero people dying.
Over the next few months everyone is going to need to return to work, and that includes ‘non essential’ workers. What you do is you work out a way where you can keep doing your job whilst being as cautious as possible to spreading the virus as you can. But it is impossible to eliminate all risk. But unless we literally all walk around in hazard suits that is how’s its going to be.


I saw Gary Neville say “god forbid a premier league footballer should get the virus”. As if they’re somehow more important than everyone else. The bar cannot be set like “oh one footballer has it, we must all stop” otherwise you might as well end football in it’s entirety. Unfortunately Gary, premier league footballers still have families who work, they’ll have kids who go to school and they still have to go shopping. The risk isn’t just there when they step onto a pitch.

 

[Finn MacCool]

Arguably but every team will be losing out on opportunities to win the league, qualify for the CL/EL, finish top 10, get out of the relegation or indeed into it. No positions are finalized yet, so as i said voiding the season treats every club equally, no club is losing out on a position they had secured.

Changed your tune there.

Null and voiding the season affects all 20 teams equally, everything they did is effectively erased and they all start back at square one as if the 19/20 season never happened.

Hope this helps you understand

Now banter aside i do hope we are in a position to finish this season over the next few months, i'm only suggesting what i think is the fairest solution if the season can't be completed.

No one could say Liverpool don't deserve the title, but if the season can't be completed i don't see any fair way of giving Liverpool the title without other teams being unfairly treated if their current positions are made final too.

How would you feel if they voided the season but gave Liverpool an honourary title of some sorts?

Whilst I don't agree with them, I can appreciate all the arguments for voiding in terms of logistics, timeframes, legal implications and of course sitting above all that is public health. But if you still think that a void will affect all teams equally then I think its at this point we should agree to disagree on the meaning of the words Affect and Equal. But I'm quite happy to stand corrected if you can show me a dictionary where those words mean something else.

I don't see a way that they can essentially void the season for only 19 teams - and I wouldn't want them to. The PL will be watching what happens very closely in Germany (even though the UK's handling of covid19 has been woefully inept in comparison). If players or staff go down with the virus either during training or games then that will be game over for finishing the PL. In that case I think they will move swiftly to some sort of fudged middle ground where current standings are final, but with no relegation. Voiding is the nuclear option that I don't think any of the bigger leagues will choose because they will prioritise the rewarding of 75% of a season vs the trashing of 75% of a season. But some might disagree