Television The Last Dance (ESPN) | 97-98 Bulls and MJ

RexHamilton

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Then why is he crying at the end, upset that people think he's a jerk and asshole? Why can't he just own his fecked up behavior in the pursuit of shiny hardware?
I meant worth for all the others. Worth putting up with him being a dickhead and a bully to be part of one of the most successful teams in NBA History.

I’m sure if you asked all of the 90’s Bulls would they have liked Jordan to be a nicer person, they’d probably say no because the standard he set brought them all on. Maybe they could have progressed without Jordan being a bully, but the fact is, he was who he was and they won what they won.
 

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Agree to disagree then.

It's clearly one dynasty to me, especially Brady/Belichick. That's like, universally accepted. Even when they weren't winning, they got to 8 consecutive conference finals. You can't compare the NFL to the NBA, but that's extremely hard to do anyway. I also believe the Popovich era can be defined as one dynasty. You don't need to be winning all the time to stop being one.
I agree with this. Pats also had the 16-0 season, in amongst that, and for the past twenty years, they’ve either been in the Superbowl or been the gatekeepers to it. Amount of times I’ve heard some announcer say, “The road to the Super Bowl runs through New England,” over the years, even prior to 2014 means its one dynasty to me.
Patriots are the ultimate “to be the man, first you gotta beat the man,” example.
 

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Personally, I think there's three others that you can compare him too. Schumacher, Woods and Sir Alex. They all share that win at all costs trait - feck anybody that gets in my way and do it for an entire career. You could probaby add Armstrong to that group as well but I think people get a little touchy about that one.
Win at all costs trait would encompass ronaldo as well to be fair
 

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Then why is he crying at the end, upset that people think he's a jerk and asshole? Why can't he just own his fecked up behavior in the pursuit of shiny hardware?
Im not going to toot my own horn because what MJ did and what I did are not even in the same universe, but as somebody who has done something that alot of people don't have the capacity to do, when your mindset is to succeed or reach a goal at all costs, it changes your makeup as a person that doesn't necessarily reflect who you are. You stop being that person that you actually are and the overriding will to succeed creates a cuntishness about you that can only be describe as sociopathic tendencies. Its like a personal defence mechanism that you create in your own head to block out any doubt of what you're doing so that you can achieve what you set out to do. Its tunnel vision and it becomes that "feck anything and anybody that gets in my way" type of mentality. Its not healthy at all, but sometimes you need to go to a place you dont want to go, to achieve what you want.

MJ won 6 rings, I lost 90 kg in weight over 12 months through only diet and exercise. I completely changed my personality and my lifestyle and to do that meant that I had to be completely driven in my pursuit to lose weight. Getting through those mental barriers that most people stop at with diet and exercise was not easy. Its one thing to do diet for 6-12 weeks, but to do it consistently and unrelentingly for 12 months and knowing that this was probably going to be for the rest of my life was hard. At points my caloric intake was half of my output (1500 intake for sometimes anywhere between 2500 and 3000 calories expendicture). If you've ever done a low carb diet, imagine that but non stop. I trained 3 hours day, 6 days a week while studying law and working a part time job in construction. It was heavy and it sucked, but I knew I had to do it.

Listening to MJ in episode 7 and his mentality that he held, resonates with how I felt at the time. I remember telling myself to keep me motivated, that I was going to do things that most people aren't willing to do. Its delusional and stupid and you can judge me for it, but its what I had to tell myself to do what I did. The results spoke and still speak for themselves. I wouldnt change what I did.

One thing that I completely agree with what MJ said is that winning and leadership comes at a price and most people aren't always willing to pay that fee. Its why the people who dont understand his mentality, are probably the types that wouldnt be willing to put themselves through what he did. They're not built the same way which is not to say thats a bad thing.

I can understand why Michael gets emotional because its exhausting being that person. I was that person for 12 months and I was tired. Michael did it for a whole career, as did Schumacher and Ferguson. It hurts knowing that you gave people this perception that you were an arsehole, sociopath etc when its not necessarily who you are. Its just, the place you had to be as a person to get what you wanted.
 
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adexkola

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Im not going to toot my own horn because what MJ did and what I did are not even in the same universe, but as somebody who has done something that alot of people don't have the capacity to do, when your mindset is to succeed or reach a goal at all costs, it changes your makeup as a person that doesn't necessarily reflect who you are. You stop being that person that you actually are and the overriding will to succeed creates a cuntishness about you that can only be describe as sociopathic tendencies. Its like a personal defence mechanism that you create in your own head to block out any doubt of what you're doing so that you can achieve what you set out to do. Its tunnel vision and it becomes that "feck anything and anybody that gets in my way" type of mentality. Its not healthy at all, but sometimes you need to go to a place you dont want to go, to achieve what you want.

MJ won 6 rings, I lost 90 kg in weight over 12 months through only diet and exercise. I completely changed my personality and my lifestyle and to do that meant that I had to be completely driven in my pursuit to lose weight. Getting through those mental barriers that most people stop at with diet and exercise was not easy. Its one thing to do diet for 6-12 weeks, but to do it consistently and unrelentingly for 12 months and knowing that this was probably going to be for the rest of my life was hard. At points my caloric intake was half of my output (1500 intake for sometimes anywhere between 2500 and 3000 calories expendicture). If you've ever done a low carb diet, imagine that but non stop. I trained 3 hours day, 6 days a week while studying law and working a part time job in construction. It was heavy and it sucked, but I knew I had to do it.

Listening to MJ in episode 7 and his mentality that he held, resonates with how I felt at the time. I remember telling myself to keep me motivated, that I was going to do things that most people aren't willing to do. Its delusional and stupid and you can judge me for it, but its what I had to tell myself to do what I did. The results spoke and still speak for themselves. I wouldnt change what I did.

One thing that I completely agree with what MJ said is that winning and leadership comes at a price and most people aren't always willing to pay that fee. Its why the people who dont understand his mentality, are probably the types that wouldnt be willing to put themselves through what he did. They're not built the same way which is not to say thats a bad thing.

I can understand why Michael gets emotional because its exhausting being that person. I was that person for 12 months and I was tired. Michael did it for a whole career, as did Schumacher and Ferguson. It hurts knowing that you gave people this perception that you were an arsehole, sociopath etc when its not necessarily who you are. Its just, the place you had to be as a person to get what you wanted.
Respect to you man, that's amazing
 

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that image of Jordan crying on the floor is incredible, I've never seen that before

can't believe they shoved a camera in his face in a moment like that
 

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Per documentary, the theme of MJ getting riled up at perceived slights to be motivated to take down opposing players is hilarious.
Yeah and the ones he even made up and said didn't happen!!

Really enjoy the documentary glad I'm going into it knowing nothing about basketball it's adding to the story for me I think.

Dunno about the rest of the debate regarding his input etc I think he's coming across as a human with massive flaws he doesn't look great in this, maybe he was worse but maybe he actually was like theyre saying he could be sound but also could be a dick. I'm enjoying it for what it is anyway not particularly bothered his company has an input
 

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The way he uses the smallest things to get himself going for games :lol: elite mentality really. Even inventing a scenario in his head so that he could show someone up next game.

Really interesting how he hated the fact people even had the audacity to challenge him and always had to shut that down immediately.
 

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Another great couple of episodes.

Can someone who follows the NBA tell me how many games of the regular season would a player like Jordan typically play? Surely he was not contesting all 82?
 

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The way he uses the smallest things to get himself going for games :lol: elite mentality really. Even inventing a scenario in his head so that he could show someone up next game.

Really interesting how he hated the fact people even had the audacity to challenge him and always had to shut that down immediately.
Really? I thought that was the one thing that disappointed me, that he apparently always needed someone to trigger him and that he couldn't keep up his winning mentality from within, from an inner drive. I also used to think he was quite invincible in the playoffs, but there were games where you'd expect him to get the job done or get his team over the line and he completely disappeared, e.g. letting the Sonics get back in the series after being up 3-0. Those are things that modern day superstars like LeBron get absolutely rinsed for if they do it with the online exposure they have right now, but Jordan also had games like that. If you need to lose to BJ Armstrong first before you get motivated, in the second round of the playoffs, then you lack an elite mentality imo.

His "that's what you gotta do if you want to be a leader" to justify his horrible behaviour towards some of his teammates is a pretty poor excuse as well to me.
 

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Another great couple of episodes.

Can someone who follows the NBA tell me how many games of the regular season would a player like Jordan typically play? Surely he was not contesting all 82?
Close to it, I don't think he'd be a fan of load management. James has played 74 games or more in 13 of his first 15 seasons in the NBA as well. Jordan would've wanted to play every game imo, and maybe sit out the last few games of the season as soon as they'd clinched the #1 seed.
 

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Close to it, I don't think he'd be a fan of load management. James has played 74 games or more in 13 of his first 15 seasons in the NBA as well. Jordan would've wanted to play every game imo, and maybe sit out the last few games of the season as soon as they'd clinched the #1 seed.
Wow. No wonder he was exhausted every few seasons. Aside from the physical aspect of the games and all the travelling, the mental side must have been incredibly draining with the way he ensured his stayed so competitive.

I had a feeling he may have been at most games, simply because it seems he felt he had a duty to the fans, but still shocked at the same time.
 

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Another great couple of episodes.

Can someone who follows the NBA tell me how many games of the regular season would a player like Jordan typically play? Surely he was not contesting all 82?
During his time with the Bulls, (and excluding his second season where he only played 18 games because of his broken foot), MJ played 895 out of 902 regular season games. He also played 179 playoff games during his time in Chicago.
 

youngrell

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During his time with the Bulls, (and excluding his second season where he only played 18 games because of his broken foot), MJ played 895 out of 902 regular season games. He also played 179 playoff games during his time in Chicago.
That's incredible :eek:. Thanks for that.
 

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The way he uses the smallest things to get himself going for games :lol: elite mentality really. Even inventing a scenario in his head so that he could show someone up next game.

Really interesting how he hated the fact people even had the audacity to challenge him and always had to shut that down immediately.
Lance Armstrong is a great exponent of that as well. If you read up on the way he treated people, especially reporters, it gives you an insight to that sort of mentality.
 

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Really? I thought that was the one thing that disappointed me, that he apparently always needed someone to trigger him and that he couldn't keep up his winning mentality from within, from an inner drive. I also used to think he was quite invincible in the playoffs, but there were games where you'd expect him to get the job done or get his team over the line and he completely disappeared, e.g. letting the Sonics get back in the series after being up 3-0. Those are things that modern day superstars like LeBron get absolutely rinsed for if they do it with the online exposure they have right now, but Jordan also had games like that. If you need to lose to BJ Armstrong first before you get motivated, in the second round of the playoffs, then you lack an elite mentality imo.

His "that's what you gotta do if you want to be a leader" to justify his horrible behaviour towards some of his teammates is a pretty poor excuse as well to me.
I mean I guess you could look at it that way but everyone has their way to gee themselves up for games. He'd been playing for years at this point and clearly the competitiveness is what drove him. I don't think you could swing as far the other way that you have and say he doesn't have an elite mentality. You can't not have that and achieve what he did. He was petty, yes but it worked for him most of the time.
 

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Lance Armstrong is a great exponent of that as well. If you read up on the way he treated people, especially reporters, it gives you an insight to that sort of mentality.
You mean the mentality where he threatened people who knew his secret (Betsy Andreu for starters), was a pathological liar and treated the media with disrespect for no apparent reason? I don't know why anyone would laud such behavior - it's also used to glorify Jordan while it actually proves that he was quite a dick (supported by enough anecdotal evidence even before this documentary).

And don't get me wrong, I grew to like Armstrong even more after he finally admitted everything. However, him and Jordan both HAD great winning mentalities, but everything surrounding that they were horrible at, Armstrong even balancing on the line of being a straight up criminal. He had the best material, best dope, best preparation, best focus, but you can have all those things (which I admire him for) and still be a nice person, as countless people have proven. Him and Jordan definitely don't fit that category.
 

RobinLFC

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I mean I guess you could look at it that way but everyone has their way to gee themselves up for games. He'd been playing for years at this point and clearly the competitiveness is what drove him. I don't think you could swing as far the other way that you have and say he doesn't have an elite mentality. You can't not have that and achieve what he did. He was petty, yes but it worked for him most of the time.
I think it's the pettiness that bugs me a bit, yeah - like being annoyed for not beating his teammates or the security guards at $1 card games or $20 coin flips, but I guess that stems from that winning mentality maybe. Must be fecking exhausting living your life like that, I think.

Think it just seems "nicer" to me if your winning mentality comes from an inner drive to prove "the people" in general wrong or to become the best ever, rather than having to play mental games with someone each time to put them in their place and not allowing anyone else to be on even remotely the same level as yourself. If that makes sense.
 

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So 'winning mentality' = "bullying". It's in every single workplace, nothing exclusive to sport. It's a personality trait that people have from a very very young age, I quoted bullying because it kind of isn't, but some people see it as so, if a manager in any industry tries to push someone whos behind - they'll claim bullying etc.

However, I 100% genuienely do believe Lance was(and still is) a bully. Dirty Bertie standing up to it and dropping him in Verbier is the GOAT cycling moment... I loved it, even before it was officially out, that tour kinda proved his selfishness.
 

RobinLFC

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So 'winning mentality' = "bullying". It's in every single workplace, nothing exclusive to sport. It's a personality trait that people have from a very very young age, I quoted bullying because it kind of isn't, but some people see it as so, if a manager in any industry tries to push someone whos behind - they'll claim bullying etc.
If it's bullying, it's bullying - simple as. There are more than enough different ways to make a teammate (or a colleague) better to do it in a non-bullying way. It shouldn't be condoned because it's seen as part of an "extreme winning mentality" that only a few possess.

The article Eboue posted on the previous page was true, there are countless examples of players (and Finals MVPs) in the last two decades since the Jordan era, and only Bryant comes close to Jordan in that respect. Duncan won 5 rings and he's probably the nicest teammate anyone could wish for. The That's you because you never won anything quote from Jordan was just a pretty lame excuse to justify his behavior towards some of his teammates.
 

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So if someones shit and lazy in a workplace, should a manage their performance with aim to improve it or not?

Because thats always seen as bullying when the improvement doesn’t come...

Bullying isn’t always bullying was what i meant. I dunno.

Jordan bullied to improve and win in his mind.

Lance bullied to improve, win but also to hide the secrets.

There will be plenty of examples of one mentality working .... and not. Same with the nice guy stuff....

Im not certain I like the comparison to the years after Jordan either - how many Roy Keanes have there been after Roy Keane? Yet when he was playing there were a fair few who’d be similarly aggressive - were in a much softer generation as a whole.
 

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That's incredible :eek:. Thanks for that.
He pretty much goes all out in every game as well.

He knows that some people might be watching him live for this one game only and doesn't wants to disappoint them by giving a half assed game or not show up at all because he's tired.
 

elmo

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So if someones shit and lazy in a workplace, should a manage their performance with aim to improve it or not?

Because thats always seen as bullying when the improvement doesn’t come...

Bullying isn’t always bullying was what i meant. I dunno.

Jordan bullied to improve and win in his mind.

Lance bullied to improve, win but also to hide the secrets.

There will be plenty of examples of one mentality working .... and not. Same with the nice guy stuff....

Im not certain I like the comparison to the years after Jordan either - how many Roy Keanes have there been after Roy Keane? Yet when he was playing there were a fair few who’d be similarly aggressive - were in a much softer generation as a whole.
That's because the current generation prefers being passive aggressive thinking that its much better.

It essentially serves the same purpose just that people now are just looking more like petty asses instead of outright assholes.
 

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Watched a couple of episodes. Amazing athlete, truly out of this world, but never knew he was a bit of a cnut.

Reading this thread though, that's hardly a state secret I suppose.
 

Jim Beam

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The man has a God complex. Which is quite understandable since I never saw anyone being treated the way he was during his basketball years. Not just by Bulls fans, but absolutely everyone, fans of other clubs, league leading people or even the regular folks with half interest in the sport. The attention he brought every time he stepped outside, let alone to the basketball floor was indescribable. Even this documentary can't really show it in a proper way despite doing a pretty good job.

With that attention the other side of his character came out and it was often unpleasant. Justifying it purely with his will to win would be wrong as he could have certainly been a better teammate at times. It would also mean it was/is the right way of leading which is pretty untrue. Saw Fergie being mentioned, but Jordan was way more unemotional or cruel towards his teammates and sometimes beyond any reasonable explanation. Yes, it did brought an unprecedented success to both him and the team, but some of his methods can certainly be questioned at least.

This is not some indictment of his personality. He didn't do anything horrible by any means. With the amount of fame he had on his shoulders most people would just fell apart, let alone achieve what he did. It just means he could have been a bit of less prick sometimes.

Saying all this and looking just in sport terms, the greatest that ever played the game for me. Just untouchable.
 

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The guy will never not be in any genuine top 3 list of greatest athletes of all time for the next 100 years minimum. Whatever he did to achieve that, was ultimately correct.
 

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The man has a God complex. Which is quite understandable since I never saw anyone being treated the way he was during his basketball years. Not just by Bulls fans, but absolutely everyone, fans of other clubs, league leading people or even the regular folks with half interest in the sport. The attention he brought every time he stepped outside, let alone to the basketball floor was indescribable. Even this documentary can't really show it in a proper way despite doing a pretty good job.

With that attention the other side of his character came out and it was often unpleasant. Justifying it purely with his will to win would be wrong as he could have certainly been a better teammate at times. It would also mean it was/is the right way of leading which is pretty untrue. Saw Fergie being mentioned, but Jordan was way more unemotional or cruel towards his teammates and sometimes beyond any reasonable explanation. Yes, it did brought an unprecedented success to both him and the team, but some of his methods can certainly be questioned at least.

This is not some indictment of his personality. He didn't do anything horrible by any means. With the amount of fame he had on his shoulders most people would just fell apart, let alone achieve what he did. It just means he could have been a bit of less prick sometimes.

Saying all this and looking just in sport terms, the greatest that ever played the game for me. Just untouchable.
To be fair - he had teammate issues well before the mega popularity. I know he was the biggest name in the NBA fairly quickly - but his demanding stance was there from more or less year 2 give or take - a time when Magic and Larry still ran the show. So you can't blame it on a god complex, him delivering on his goals isn't going to make him ease off - though reasonably he should have into retirement - his Hall of Fame confirmed that wasn't the case. It's him, he's just who he is - he'd be the same if he started sales at 18 ... he'd basically be Alec Baldwin in Glengarry at this point.
 

Jim Beam

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To be fair - he had teammate issues well before the mega popularity. I know he was the biggest name in the NBA fairly quickly - but his demanding stance was there from more or less year 2 give or take - a time when Magic and Larry still ran the show. So you can't blame it on a god complex, him delivering on his goals isn't going to make him ease off - though reasonably he should have into retirement - his Hall of Fame confirmed that wasn't the case. It's him, he's just who he is - he'd be the same if he started sales at 18 ... he'd basically be Alec Baldwin in Glengarry at this point.
Agree with that, I do think he was always like that. Just think that all the craziness and attention that surrounded him once he stepped into the league highlighted even more some parts of that character. Also, he was the main star almost from day 1 and on the front of Sports Illustrated in his rookie year. In that same rookie year, he made Jack Nicholson skip the Lakers game and go to watch him against Clippers who were nobody. Just an example of what draw he was to the people right from the start.

And when am talking about "God complex" am referring more to some traits of that personality such as inability to admit he has done something wrong, or difficulty to work with. It is a bit wrong to put on someone such label when that same label was given to him by the wide audience. And he had such abilities in the first place while achieving so much.

Either way, fascinating character.
 

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For all those going on about Jordan being a bully, we have seen some flashes of same behavior in Fergie and Keane as well. I mean Fergie being much much older kicked a shoe at Beckham and then did not even apologise over it.
Fergie had similarly high standards and a similarly vicious temper but he was never a bully. Just look at their legacies: everyone, including the victim of the shoe kicking incident, agree that Ferguson was a nice guy. In contrast, everyone unanimously acknowledges that Michael Jordan was a prick.

Obviously greatness requires an edge and big ego. But you can still have all of that and be a decent human being.
 

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This guy has the elite mentality. You can call him being a bully all you like, but you cannot reach his greatness without making those around him great.
 

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I completely forgot he came back late in the season and then lost to the Magic. I thought he was 6-for-6 in the playoffs once they got started on the first three-peat.