I don’t know exactly to be honest. Supposedly he only green lit it right after Lebron won his championship with Cleveland and he was sick of people comparing them seriously as the GOAT (don‘t have a source for that other than the DP show), so it was always going to be slanted towards him.
Television The Last Dance (ESPN) | 97-98 Bulls and MJ
- Thread starter Carolina Red
- Start date
Sounds like it's based on a lot of hearsay, and even the mobster in the interview doesn't claim to know anything solid. I also would have thought it would be unusual for the Italian/Sicilian mob to kill someone's parents to settle a score, although he might not necessarily be saying it was a Cosa Nostra killing.
Ideally for the subject of a ten-part documentary to be able to speak with greater insight and self-reflection about some of the misdemeanours and failings the documentary covers. Examples that stand out include the bit in episode 6 or 7 about his failure to openly denounce the racist old pro-segregation North Carolina senate candidate. The best we got him from him was a third-person deflection along the lines "if you don't like what Michael Jordan represents, you might night to look for what you want somewhere else."
And in episode 8, when they're looking in greater depth at what an arsehole he was to his teammates, there's plenty of opportunity for him to reflect more deeply on his behaviour, acknowledge some fault, or at the very least, be able to articulate with some greater emotional insight what made him that way. But we don't get much more from it than more shallow justifications about his desire to win.
There's other examples where he deflects rather engages, although none that specifically come to mind. He's just got a huge ego and not much ability to reflect or admit error compared to other men his age, including a lot of great athletes I've seen interviewed.
And yes, it's a documentary he sanctioned and he gets to control what goes out - that's why I agreed with the person who said it would have been better if someone less biased had made it. And when you list them all like that, I suppose some credit is due for allowing the documentary to cover as much sensitive ground as it does.
Last edited:
I’ve engaged in some daft debates in this thread about fame and such.
Leaving all that aside...The Last Dance is excellent. Love it. Love Jordan. Thought I’d hate him. Love the coach, most of the team. Production is ace. Music amazing.
I loved Barkley and The Suns when The Bulls dominated. This series has adjusted so much of what I knew.
Leaving all that aside...The Last Dance is excellent. Love it. Love Jordan. Thought I’d hate him. Love the coach, most of the team. Production is ace. Music amazing.
I loved Barkley and The Suns when The Bulls dominated. This series has adjusted so much of what I knew.
Absolutely, I can't wait to watch the 6th ep! Either tonight or tomorrow evening.
I know right. Arguing unprovables in a boozy haze through boredom and lack of alternatives.
Honesty comes too late.
This show is so great it makes me want to get into basketball.
Knowing nothing about the sport other than The Last Dance, Space Jam, and, err, One Tree Hill, where do I start? Any classic matches I should watch/ people recommend?
Knowing nothing about the sport other than The Last Dance, Space Jam, and, err, One Tree Hill, where do I start? Any classic matches I should watch/ people recommend?
Hard to say if you're really starting from scratch. I think @Eboue has once put together a quite handy list of games you'd need to watch if you wanna get into the NBA stuff, but can't find it right now.
I'd suggest to read up a little bit about the history of the league. If you wanna dive into that, can't go wrong with the historical rivalries and franchises (Lakers, Celtics, Bulls a bit more recently). You could read up about the great players of the past, and find some highlights of them on YouTube (just go by some "Greatest" lists, MVP list, stuff like that) to see what kind of style of players you like most. Maybe try to pick a team that you like (jerseys, city location, whatever) and read up about their history and current players. If you wanna start more recently, the Warriors of the past half decade are worth watching for a bit, and most LeBron James teams too.
Hard to say which classic games are must-watch because there are so many, and it depends where your focus is. I'd definitely start with Finals or at least playoff games because the intensity is much higher than the regular season and games mean a lot more as well. Game 7s are always fun and intriguing (e.g. 2019 Philadelphia-Toronto Game 7, 2016 Finals Cavs-Warriors Game 7, 2010 Finals Celtics-Lakers Game 7, 2013 Finals Game 6 and 7, ...). All-Star games might be a good start to learn about the stars of the league but (apart from 2020) they've been boring as hell for the last decade or so.
I used to think the same but liking Jordan and this show isn’t enough to sustain a serious interest in basketball... for me as much as I respect the greats in this game, as a spectacle it will never match football for me as a sport you can watch on a regular basis and it’s only if I can buy into the narrative of a certain end of season playoff that I’ll watch say a series of NBA playoffs. Might end up different for you.
I’d recommend watching some of the 2019 playoffs between Golden State (the team of the decade) vs Toronto Raptors (led by up and coming best player in the league Kawhi Leonard). Felt like a changing of the guard moment but it was an iconic match up even for the neutral.
I don’t get what more he has to say about the democrat issue.. he basically says unlike Ali he wasn’t very political and couldn’t really give a shit. Can’t say that is deflecting anything, it is what it is. Personally that makes me think less of him but at the same time, he’s not really sugar coating it.
Also not sure what he wants from him in general - if he doesn't feel remorse why fake it? It's like Pippen.... he doesn't like that he sat but admitted he'd do it again if it replayed. So what insight from the two is there to give?
Jordan doesn't regret this shit because it got him where he wanted.... do you want him to lie for you?
Jordan doesn't regret this shit because it got him where he wanted.... do you want him to lie for you?
Jordan’s last game for Chicago against Utah comes to mind, though I don‘t know if they‘ll cover it here so much it wouldn’t be worth it. LA vs Kings 2002 WCF games 4, 6, & 7 from an all-time great series would be great. I kind want to now thinking about it.
For other docs: Hoop Dreams, Magic & Bird: A Courtship of Rivals, and Without Bias. Then watch Hoosiers or Blue Chips for fiction.
Its just so good. Netflix is killing it with original content.
Load of shit.
There is no way that Jordan and Nike being in their position at the time, could not have come to an arrangement on a forward payment for his endorsements to cover any gambling debt unless it was in the hundreds of millions which I severely doubt.
The man was literally god on the sporting field.
My feel is either Michael's dad has his own failings at that time based off his sons success, or it was an attempted kidnapping that went wrong.
Oh don't worry, I know I'm not going to immediately be watching every game (and clearly, there are a lot of games!). I just want to watch some classic play-offs/ finals, learn more about it and hopefully stick with that/ find a team. Cheers for the rec for 2019.
Thanks mate. I'll save Jordan games for the doc until it's finished, as I don't remember when exactly he quits the NBA, or if they win in '98 (though it seems that they will). Will move on to your other recs after that.
Cheers Robin. I might pester Eboue for that list at some point, but that's plenty for now.
How did you get into the NBA? Do you have a team?
My cousin was born in '87 and started basketball playing at a young age, so he grew up during Jordan's dominance. I'm from 1993 and he got me into it as far back as I can remember, so around 1998 or so. He loved the Lakers (with Kobe and Shaq at the time) so that simply became my team as well. Made it a lot easier that they won 3 titles in a row from '00 through '02 of course.
I have to admit that my interest in the NBA grows or reduces depending on the Lakers' form. I was properly hooked during the 00s (and it peaked when the Lakers made 3 straight Finals appearances again from '08 through '10), but kept watching as long as Kobe played. It was at an all-time low right after his retirement but now my interest is back up again now that they're competing for a ring again.
It's just hard to keep following the regular season closely once your team is out of playoff contention. The playoffs are always great to follow though - so many interesting series, games, storylines, and usually lots of tension as well. Once you develop some affinity for a franchise, it'll be easier to follow the regular season a bit as well.
Yeah - the nature of American sports seems that it's clearly less predictable and success is better distributed than in football, though on the flip side, you have a lot of dead rubbers and it's hard for a casual to find a team who they can see competing year after year. Hard to say if that's better or worse.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
So “Jump 23” (Jordan’s own production company) was a co-producer of this docuseries but they never mentioned it and it wasn’t listed in the credits - nor is it on IMDB.
The never before seen footage also came with Jordan’s veto on what could and couldn’t be used.
I’m sure it’s a great watch, but it doesn’t say much for how accurate a picture it’s painting.
All it's saying is that last championship run was a tough run due to all the shit that's been stirring within the team throughout the years. People assumed that the Bulls team was perfect on/off court when in reality they were basically feuding with the front office while players were disgruntled with how they were being treated.
The documentary is basically telling everyone that they not only had to deal with their opponents, they still had to deal with all the bullshit from the media and their own front office.
I've no idea why people love to overcomplicate something so simple.
Last edited:
Completely agree.
Also, things such as discord amongst the team and between the players and the organisation, MJs gambling, how his competitiveness could be disruptive...none of that is new!
It’s an incredibly enjoyable look at perhaps the best ever NBA team and certainly the greatest every player.
And I can’t wait for the next two episodes!!
It’s enjoyable. That’s enough.
MJ comes across as;
- Petty
- Professionally respectable
- Honest
- Self aware
- Driven more than talented
- Talented beyond belief
- Appreciative of his team and coaches
He had, and has, the ability to be an asshole. But he seemed to keep it in check as much as most celebrities or athletes as insanely talented and rich as he.
One of the best sports docos I’ve watched ever. Yes it’s skewed in his favour. But most players get air time. Some criticisms that sound rough are played directly back to him and you see his reaction.
I was never a Jordan fan. If that helps to add colour.
The doc is great entertainment
Episode 7 was great. As someone who knows nothing of MJs life, couple of big shocks in this episode.
This has made me want to get into watching the NBA once it restarts. I'm thinking I might make Miami Heat my team based purely on the fact that my NFL team has been Miami Dolphins since 1985.
This has made me want to get into watching the NBA once it restarts. I'm thinking I might make Miami Heat my team based purely on the fact that my NFL team has been Miami Dolphins since 1985.
I'm a little too young to really have appreciated MJ and being from the UK i'm not sure we had the NBA on our TV anyway.
He gives off very Cristiano Ronaldo vibes to me.
He gives off very Cristiano Ronaldo vibes to me.
No matter what it leaves out or no matter how much it may ignore certain things ya about Jordan’s life, I can’t get over his drive, his work rate, his will to win.
He was of course, incredibly talented, but he’s the greatest to play the game because of how hard he worked and because how he demanded so much from his team mates.
A nightmare to play and train with, but when you’re lifting silverware at the end of the season, it’ll all have been worth it.
He was of course, incredibly talented, but he’s the greatest to play the game because of how hard he worked and because how he demanded so much from his team mates.
A nightmare to play and train with, but when you’re lifting silverware at the end of the season, it’ll all have been worth it.
It's not overcomplicating anything. ESPN is known for making great unbiased documentaries in the 30 for 30 series. I get that the previous generation has a hard on for Jordan and that anything in this climate is better than nothing. The article echos my earlier sentiments that as a documentary it could have been better, and removing creative control from Jordan would have been one way to accomplish this.
Then why is he crying at the end, upset that people think he's a jerk and asshole? Why can't he just own his fecked up behavior in the pursuit of shiny hardware?
You know his father was killed right?
I'm not talking about why he was crying in the locker room on Father's Day. (Sidenote, real disgusting by the media trying to suck up his tears for the camera)
I'm asking why he was crying at the end of episode 8 when being interviewed. Saying "that's how I played the game yadayadayada..."
Feck the Bulls and Feck MJ.
Ahh yeah that one was strange.. after laughing at Gary Payton for saying that the hard ball slapping defense might have had a impact on his game.. Then going into some defensive crap about wanting others to win with him and that's just how he played the game before drawing a tear and stopping the interview.
Sorry my bad..
https://ziller.substack.com/p/and-now-your-chicago-bully
This is exactly how I feel about this..
He was a dick and because he was the greatest he was allowed to be a dick. Having his company shadow produce this leaves you with the taste of a calculated white wash of facts. These tears didn't help.
Last edited:
Yeah it had coverage - even the sticker books made it over here in the few years post Space Jam
Yeah you good, we on the same page.
Love this show. As a guy in his mid 30s, I'm always going to lean towards MJ being the GOAT but seriously Jordan's way cooler than LeBron James or any of this generation's NBA superstars. Those behind the scenes videos of him taking the piss out of his team mates and generally being a competitive dick to everyone is riveting.
I've been watching videos of other NBA players telling people their Jordan stories. Kevin Garnett has one that cracks me the feck up.
Here's one of a 36 year old retired MJ going one on one with a rookie who talked too much. Him telling the kid to look around him at all the championship banners at the place was particularly badass. That first basket he made was smooth af.
I've been watching videos of other NBA players telling people their Jordan stories. Kevin Garnett has one that cracks me the feck up.
Here's one of a 36 year old retired MJ going one on one with a rookie who talked too much. Him telling the kid to look around him at all the championship banners at the place was particularly badass. That first basket he made was smooth af.
Just started watching this. Damn this brings up old memories, in the 90s I actually preferred basketball to football and would put my clock on whatever time needed to watch live basketball games on the only German TV station that would even show NBA games. Good times.
For all those going on about Jordan being a bully, we have seen some flashes of same behavior in Fergie and Keane as well. I mean Fergie being much much older kicked a shoe at Beckham and then did not even apologise over it.
Per documentary, the theme of MJ getting riled up at perceived slights to be motivated to take down opposing players is hilarious.