Cop in America doing a bad job, again

[Sky1981]

Not exactly, because the “threshold” is different for each department. I can get hired by one department but rejected by another. Some departments are very selective on hiring. I’ve been to testing events years ago in a auditoriums filled with hundreds of fellow applicants, but the dept will only be hiring 4 bodies for the year. Maybe require a college degree? Though many poorer applicants will be disadvantaged. Or make the academy longer is a feasible idea too.

I really don’t know how to fix the toxic cultures prevalent in departments. I do think a generational shift needs to happen. There’s still a lot of “old school” police officers who came on the job in the 80s and 90s before cellphone videos and social media. You can imagine how the culture was back then. Until these guys are gone from the ranks maybe then it will get better?

Time can't fix this one as new incidents keeps on ramping up the tension.

Time can heal "One" incident, people will forget over time and move on, but not when new and fresh one keeps coming in every months.

Everytime an incident like floyd happens it sets you back for I don't know how long, at his rate you will never have the trust / respect / obedience from the black community and who can blame them.

 

[4bars]

And where would the academy be? Which cities would they go afterwards? Would their department pay them their full salary/benefits while in training for 2-3 years?

Every first world country does it. It would be change the police system and US has the resources. I can't understand american exceptionalism. We can't have police academies, we can't get rid of guns, we can't get universal health care, we can't get affordable post-secondary education.

It is possible, there is no will

 

[Carolina Red]

Not exactly, because the “threshold” is different for each department. I can get hired by one department but rejected by another. Some departments are very selective on hiring. I’ve been to testing events years ago in a auditoriums filled with hundreds of fellow applicants, but the dept will only be hiring 4 bodies for the year. Maybe require a college degree? Though many poorer applicants will be disadvantaged. Or make the academy longer is a feasible idea too.

I really don’t know how to fix the toxic cultures prevalent in departments. I do think a generational shift needs to happen. There’s still a lot of “old school” police officers who came on the job in the 80s and 90s before cellphone videos and social media. You can imagine how the culture was back then. Until these guys are gone from the ranks maybe then it will get better?

First part in bold is part of my point... there should be a set universal standard, as without one, Billy Bob who got rejected by the State and by the County can apply to the local town police and probably get in, meaning the people doing the local policing aren't that good.

Second part in bold is exactly what others, including myself, have already suggested, which you previously said was not feasible.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

More than half of my team I work with are university graduates, a number of whom studied criminology. I myself am a University graduate.
Below is a PC who I work with in the Met Police.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

He’s an Oxford graduate and speaks Arabic. There was a significant influx of graduate officers in this new generation of Police. As you know there was a recession a number of years ago which left a lot of people in the 25-35 age group with degrees but no job opportunities, a lot of them decided to take up policing due to the steady nature of the job and the fact you can progress and go into a variety of different fields. (Newsflash policing isn’t just patrol officers in uniform, it’s much much bigger)

But please feel free to continue to make sweeping generalisations in a condescending arseholeish manner because obviously you’ve spoken to and interacted with the majority of police officers in the U.K. and so are able to conclude that most of them lack intelligence.

Thanks for this, care to shed some light on why with such an influx of intelligence the force is still rife with racism? You know cause, being black will still disproportionately see people stopped & searched. . . & so on.

Sorry but I find a policeperson calling someone ‘arseholeish’ for making ‘sweeping generalisations’ laughable.

[& no I’ve not interacted with the majority of the force. Nor do I need to.]

 

[Silva]

[& no I’ve not interacted with the majority of the force. Nor do I need to.]

but how are you meant to justify their abuses if you don't have a pint with and get to know them?

 

[Carolina Red]

Thanks for this, care to shed some light on why with such an influx of intelligence the force is still rife with racism? You know cause, being black will still disproportionately see people stopped & searched. . . & so on.

Sorry but I find a policeperson calling someone ‘arseholeish’ for making ‘sweeping generalisations’ laughable.

[& no I’ve not interacted with the majority of the force. Nor do I need to.]

Do you need to make a "Bobbies in Britain doing a bad job, again" thread?

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Saw this picture on reddit. Sorry if it was already posted. But fecking hell.

 

[choiboyx012]

First part in bold is part of my point... there should be a set universal standard, as without one, Billy Bob who got rejected by the State and by the County can apply to the local town police and probably get in, meaning the people doing the local policing aren't that good.

Second part in bold is exactly what others, including myself, have already suggested, which you previously said was not feasible.

The bold part is not necessarily true, but I agree there should be a set universal standard.
And it wasn't the making academies longer that I said wasn't feasible. It was having a centralized police force and training in a 2-3 year university-style setting that I don't think is logistically possible. I'm guessing it would be like FBI x100000? How would that look like and work?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

but how are you meant to justify their abuses if you don't have a pint with and get to know them?

Do you need to make a "Bobbies in Britain doing a bad job, again" thread?

Ours don’t have access to guns but the bigotry is similar.

 

[Carolina Red]

The bold part is not necessarily true, but I agree there should be a set universal standard.
And it wasn't the making academies longer that I said wasn't feasible. It was having a centralized police force and training in a 2-3 year university-style setting that I don't think is logistically possible. I'm guessing it would be like FBI x100000? How would that look like and work?

Well, service academies (West Point, Annapolis, etc) already give us a model... and a European country is typically roughly the size of some US state.

Beef up the statewide academies, have a set standard of policing that is taught, run it like a service academy, send graduates out to places within the state as needed.

Will it take time to replace the "old guard"? Yes. Will we wind up with a better trained police force eventually? Also yes.

 

[choiboyx012]

Every first world country does it. It would be change the police system and US has the resources. I can't understand american exceptionalism. We can't have police academies, we can't get rid of guns, we can't get universal health care, we can't get affordable post-secondary education.

It is possible, there is no will

You're going off tangents but do tell how it is possible? What specific changes are you saying should be implemented to the entire country and system? And how would that trickle down and effect each city big or small? each county? each state?

 

[JPRouve]

Well, service academies (West Point, Annapolis, etc) already give us a model... and a European country is typically roughly the size of some US state.

Beef up the statewide academies, have a set standard of policing that is taught, run it like a service academy, send graduates out to places within the state as needed.

Will it take time to replace the "old guard"? Yes. Will we wind up with a better trained police force eventually? Also yes.

At least it would allow more uniformity and an easier way to control the general mentality. But in the US I could see a big problem, politically it would be used as an example of authoritarianism with the police likened to a state "army".

 

[Rado_N]

Take a small chunk of the stupidly enormous military budget and reform the police from the ground up. The cost isn’t an issue, as has already been said it’s the lack of a will to do anything about it.

 

[choiboyx012]

Well, service academies (West Point, Annapolis, etc) already give us a model... and a European country is typically roughly the size of some US state.

Beef up the statewide academies, have a set standard of policing that is taught, run it like a service academy, send graduates out to places within the state as needed.

Will it take time to replace the "old guard"? Yes. Will we wind up with a better trained police force eventually? Also yes.

Thanks! Yea I would be supportive of that. @Skizzo works for the state so he would have more insight into a state-run academy and how they send out officers in a big state like CA.

 

[Carolina Red]

At least it would allow more uniformity and an easier way to control the general mentality. But in the US I could see a big problem, politically it would be used as an example of authoritarianism with the police likened to a state "army".

The conservatives would be in a condundrum... stuck between their "I support the police" mentality and their "fear" of "big government".

See, conservatives typically are supportive of town and county police forces, and in many states even the state police forces. It isn't until you get to the federal level that the suddenly forget about the "thin blue line" and start with the Gestapo analogies.

 

[Carolina Red]

Thanks! Yea I would be supportive of that. @Skizzo works for the state so he would have more insight into a state-run academy and how they send out officers in a big state like CA.

Indeed. I'd be interested to see what he said as well.

 

[edcunited1878]

Take a small chunk of the stupidly enormous military budget and reform the police from the ground up. The cost isn’t an issue, as has already been said it’s the lack of a will to do anything about it.

The biggest issue, while I don't disagree with you, is how politically interwoven any law enforcement agency (local, state, and federal) is with local politicians, government, union, and lobbyists. The entire system is fecked up and one section of change will not make a difference.

 

[Sky1981]

Well, service academies (West Point, Annapolis, etc) already give us a model... and a European country is typically roughly the size of some US state.

Beef up the statewide academies, have a set standard of policing that is taught, run it like a service academy, send graduates out to places within the state as needed.

Will it take time to replace the "old guard"? Yes. Will we wind up with a better trained police force eventually? Also yes.

Those cops that killed Floyd didnt kill him because they lack training.

Because they want to hurt him.

Unlesd training can erase hatred then they'll at best learn to avoid getting caught better

 

[Carolina Red]

Those cops that killed Floyd didnt kill him because they lack training.

Because they want to hurt him.

Unlesd training can erase hatred then they'll at best learn to avoid getting caught better

...

I'm not saying that's the issue with regards to Minnesota. I'm commenting on the discussion that is currently being had in the thread about the stark difference in police training in the US (a few months) vs. some countries in Europe (a couple to a few years).

 

[choiboyx012]

Those cops that killed Floyd didnt kill him because they lack training.

Because they want to hurt him.

Unlesd training can erase hatred then they'll at best learn to avoid getting caught better

Strictly from a training perspective though, there is a whole lot wrong the officers did.

 

[Blodssvik]

Many police departement send officers to Israel to train with IDF.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

If I need to explicitly tell you that kneeling your full weight on a persons neck will likely have a negative impact on their livelihood then I don’t think a career ‘protecting & serving’ is for you.

The man was killed because the officers have prejudices that run deeply through American society.

You don’t train away racism.

 

[Duafc]

Strictly from a training perspective though, there is a whole lot wrong the officers did.

There’s not a single thing right.

At the most basic level, it is, at absolute best criminally negligent.

There’s very little training that comes into this case in my opinion. It wasn’t a taught training technique exhibited badly, and I don’t think anyone could argue a trained police officer anywhere on earth wouldn’t know that applying crushing force on someone’s neck in that position is a monumentally poor idea. That leaves very little room other than to call it what it is - murder/manslaughter.

Admittedly I’ve only watched a short part of the video, I found it hugely upsetting, but what I saw, and what I have read and seen in other angles is someone who wanted to be seen by everyone else to have put that man down, a kind of I’m the big man, I’m in control to the absolute max and most horrible degree.

His specific intent as far as how much harm he thought he was causing and how race played into it is impossible for me to gauge.

However a police officer simply has to do a million times better than that. It’s a position of such responsibly and such wanton and mindless disregard for that poor man is beyond the pale.

I know you’re not supporting them at all and just answering questions honestly which I appreciate.

Without ,admittedly, any expertise in the American Policing situation, it just seems so patently apparent that there is a massive endemic, cultural issue with regards use of force and racism - both seperately and all too often in combination.

Do you find that disheartening? I’m sure there are a great many very competent, empathetic and good police officers in America but it does seem there’s a real reluctance to call it as it is and I wonder how much that cements the issues.

 

[JPRouve]

@choiboyx012 weren't they supposed to put him in the back of their car? The other issue is that none of them is monitoring what is happening behind them, the four officers are oriented in the same direction in France they are told to not do that, you are supposed to have a complete control of your surrounding.

 

[TheReligion]

If I need to explicitly tell you that kneeling your full weight on a persons neck will likely have a negative impact on their livelihood then I don’t think a career ‘protecting & serving’ is for you.

The man was killed because the officers have prejudices that run deeply through American society.

You don’t train away racism.

I agree with this. The problem isn't the police it's the American culture. Racism, kids with guns, constant mass shootings.

They say the police represents the society it polices. Go figure.

 

[Precaution]

Gets interesting

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[TheReligion]

Do you need to make a "Bobbies in Britain doing a bad job, again" thread?

It's tiresome. There's allegedly some smart people on the Caf so it is quite astonishing, and ironic, that when it comes to certain topics they become overly emotional and allow their bad experience, or something they have heard about, shape their entire opinion on something. Not only that they talk about it to others as fact.

 

[arnie_ni]

Gets interesting

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

What proof is there?

Edit zero

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[choiboyx012]

@choiboyx012 weren't they supposed to put him in the back of their car? The other issue is that none of them is monitoring what is happening behind them, the four officers are oriented in the same direction in France they are told to not do that, you are supposed to have a complete control of your surrounding.

Yes. Once the cuffs are on, fight is over. Put him in the car as soon as possible.

 

[choiboyx012]

There’s not a single thing right.

At the most basic level, it is, at absolute best criminally negligent.

There’s very little training that comes into this case in my opinion. It wasn’t a taught training technique exhibited badly, and I don’t think anyone could argue a trained police officer anywhere on earth wouldn’t know that applying crushing force on someone’s neck in that position is a monumentally poor idea. That leaves very little room other than to call it what it is - murder/manslaughter.

Admittedly I’ve only watched a short part of the video, I found it hugely upsetting, but what I saw, and what I have read and seen in other angles is someone who wanted to be seen by everyone else to have put that man down, a kind of I’m the big man, I’m in control to the absolute max and most horrible degree.

His specific intent as far as how much harm he thought he was causing and how race played into it is impossible for me to gauge.

However a police officer simply has to do a million times better than that. It’s a position of such responsibly and such wanton and mindless disregard for that poor man is beyond the pale.

I know you’re not supporting them at all and just answering questions honestly which I appreciate.

Without ,admittedly, any expertise in the American Policing situation, it just seems so patently apparent that there is a massive endemic, cultural issue with regards use of force and racism - both seperately and all too often in combination.

Do you find that disheartening? I’m sure there are a great many very competent, empathetic and good police officers in America but it does seem there’s a real reluctance to call it as it is and I wonder how much that cements the issues.

Absolutely right. Yes it is disheartening.

 

[Silva]

It's tiresome. There's allegedly some smart people on the Caf so it is quite astonishing, and ironic, that when it comes to certain topics they become overly emotional and allow their bad experience, or something they have heard about, shape their entire opinion on something. Not only that they talk about it to others as fact.

do you ever ask yourself, why are so many people having bad experiences with my colleagues? instead of instantly calling people stupid when they, for example, point out that your colleagues use stop and search powers on black people 40 times more than white people?

 

[Sara125]

I agree with this. The problem isn't the police it's the American culture. Racism, kids with guns, constant mass shootings.

They say the police represents the society it polices. Go figure.

Umm, no. The problem is absolutely the police. American culture is also a problem. Two things can be true at once.

 

[Precaution]

What proof is there?

Edit zero

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Oh haha, well nevermind me

 

[Sara125]

It's tiresome. There's allegedly some smart people on the Caf so it is quite astonishing, and ironic, that when it comes to certain topics they become overly emotional and allow their bad experience, or something they have heard about, shape their entire opinion on something. Not only that they talk about it to others as fact.

Also find it very insulting that you’re playing down an entire systemic problem, which is highlighted by all the disproportionate brutality against black people and other minorities that we have seen time and time again and unwillingness to take their colleagues and themselves into accountability etc., to ‘bad experiences’ and ‘something’ people have heard about

Edit: Just remembered you’re an officer yourself and I think I’ve even had back and fourths with you about this in another thread so actually I’m not gonna bother because none of you guys seem to see that you’re the issue.

 

[Maagge]

It wouldn't really be the first time a rightwing regime went undercover to make the other side look bad. But yeah, evidence is needed.

 

[entropy]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[arnie_ni]

Allegedly a lot of the fires have been started by undercover officers

edit:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

There was another thread I saw explaining the same thing. Gonna have to do digging to find that one and will edit it in also.

Your going to need to prove that otherwise i think this should be deleted.

Cant be throwing around unfounded accusations like that

What proof is there?

Edit zero

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Come on sara

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Silva]

I agree with this. The problem isn't the police it's the American culture. Racism, kids with guns, constant mass shootings.

They say the police represents the society it polices. Go figure.

are you taking the piss? you're going to come into this thread, which includes examples of children getting shot by police for holding toys in their hands and talk about kids with guns being a problem and not the police? how horrible, and it's not doing your smart cops theory any favours

even across oceans pigs will stand with eachother before they actually do what they're meant to

 

[arnie_ni]

Also find it very insulting that you’re playing down an entire systemic problem, which is highlighted by all the disproportionate brutality against black people and other minorities that we have seen time and time again and unwillingness to take their colleagues and themselves into accountability etc., to ‘bad experiences’ and ‘something’ people have heard about

Edit: Just remembered you’re an officer yourself and I think I’ve even had back and fourths with you about this in another thread so actually I’m not gonna bother because none of you guys seem to see that you’re the issue.

Yea you tried to argue against a tazing at the petrol station by posting another situation saying the police should have tazed the guy in it.

 

[Sweet Square]

do you ever ask yourself, why are so many people having bad experiences with my colleagues? instead of instantly calling people stupid when they, for example, point out that your colleagues use stop and search powers on black people 40 times more than white people?

Just wasting you're time.

It's all good and well using statistics but sometimes that's all they are.