Fcuking Elite Skills..... take a look at yourself and how you write.I like @Grinner suggestion that they stay up but are painted an agreed colour that signifies their elite skills is slavery.
Poor buggers also followed the Government covid19 regulations to the letter, only to be told by Boris that they were shit parents for not manipulating the regulations like Cummings did.These people don’t know Twitter. They don’t know google across 50 tabs in a working day. They’ve just shifted from physical maps to TomTom and that £250 they spent a decade ago is replaced by GoogleMaps in one quarter that time. Then Waze replaces it in a quarter that time.
The world is moving so fast and we gave a noisy section of society a platform to comment. Then we switched it. Then again. And again.
Fcuking Elite Skills..... take a look at yourself and how you write.
I don’t know the full history but didn’t the Islamic slave trade last into the 20th century, I think SA abolished slavery in the 1960s? Muslim slave traders were also involved in the Atlantic slave trade. Didn’t Mohammed allow slavery in his teachings?
He did allow it. He allowed it on the understanding that it's better to not have slaves and any slave who becomes a Muslim must be freed, which by 7th century standards was basically bordering on communism. The other difference between the 7th century slavers was that quite uniquely Muslim slaves had upward mobility which is how Egypt, Turkey, India and a few other medieval empires managed to be ruled by the descendents of slaves.
Anyway that's neither here nor there because by modern world-wide standards of ijma(public consensus) slavery is considered very bad.
Now in answer to your point as to why muslims have been dragged into this with right-wingers calling for the demolition of mosques, it's because to the right-wingers Muslims and POC are all the same ie they are not WASPs. So if BLM is calling for the removal of Churchill's statue then obviously the Muslims have to pay the price.
I'm sure your about 12 year's old. You think your opinions are always correct, and your posts are constantly condescending.You lot still arguing about statues?
I guess you'll do anything to delay the inevitable realisation that you've been on Tommy and The Gangs' side the whole time. It's okay to admit you're racist lads, just say it with your chests and work from there. No 12 paragraph post on a football forum is going to make that nagging feeling go away. The debate is over and cognitive dissonance excuse isn't applicable anymore.
I'm sure your about 12 year's old. You think your opinions are always correct, and your posts are constantly condescending.
I'm sure you've got a thing for Tommy Robbinson you rarely shut up about him.
@sammsky1 is positively saint-like in comparison to that other muppet.
It's a strange mix of incel posting style but married with opinions to match the most embittered of lefties, it's been a joy last couple of days reading his bile. But certainly not one to make friends or influence people.I'm sure your about 12 year's old. You think your opinions are always correct, and your posts are constantly condescending.
I'm sure you've got a thing for Tommy Robbinson you rarely shut up about him.
Because they are, the same way I am. Anyone born and raised in an inherently racist system is racist to some degree, it's impossible not to be when it infects every aspect of our lives. The real question is why are so many of you afraid to admit this?
So anyone who disagrees with what ever your opinions are is racist? What absolutely idiotic post.Because they are, the same way I am. Anyone born and raised in an inherently racist system is racist to some degree, it's impossible not to be when it infects every aspect of our lives. The real question is why are so many of you afraid to admit this?
He was definitely racist, and its obviously understandable why you would feel like that.Anyone who denies that churchill was a racist and that millions died because of his actions is a fecking idiot at best!
This trend of taking down statues is a slippery slope though, at this rate we'd be taking down statues of nearly all the kings throughout different countries. The same logic also applies to alexander the great, genghis khan, timurlane etc. They put entire cities to the sword.
Im an Indian, as far as im concerned churchill was a mass murderer no better than hitler, however i dont give two shits whether his statue stays or is brought down in britain.
Those views were before he came back to India and entered political life. He changed his views later on, and clearly no one died on his account because of racism.Its a calculated false equivalence. Ghandi may have held unethical and racist opinions but those never led to millions of innocents getting brutally murdered.
Regardless, Ghandi doesn't need Britain to vouch for his greatness, so pull him down if needs must.
The grammar and prose is certainly triggering me if nothing else.16 year old white English boy, lives in Penrith, mind yet to be polluted by bulldog bollocks propaganda, does some actual reading and research of his own.
And he gets it. And he calls out those who don’t and will make quite a few on here froth and spit bile.
16 years old.
I'm not entirely sure what you want me to do with this.To play the uncomfortable middle ground...
(while being quite happy for statues, monuments and street names to get pulled down or changed inside 48 hours)
I think there are a lot of 50-100 year old people that see war and famine and suffering all over the world. They’ve watched Children in Need and sang and bought Feed the World and tried to be good and responsible and just right of centre....
And now they see vandalism of what seemed innocent. Invisible. They see people asking them to criticise Churchill, their totem to hold up as to why their grandparents were sad and why some are missing.
These people don’t know Twitter. They don’t know google across 50 tabs in a working day. They’ve just shifted from physical maps to TomTom and that £250 they spent a decade ago is replaced by GoogleMaps in one quarter that time. Then Waze replaces it in a quarter that time.
The world is moving so fast and we gave a noisy section of society a platform to comment. Then we switched it. Then again. And again.
There’s a whole 3+ generation spread of people that thought they were doing the right thing. Then Adjusted. Then again. Their software updates can’t keep up.
So they resist. That’s all they can do. Many seem to know it’s wrong to, but there’s no more juice in the fruit.
I’ve seen it. I’m sure you have to.
I wish these pushes for forward motion could ignore the noise and just focus on the people that are driving those changes forward. The rest will follow but they’ll create a fuss.
The fuss is not objection. It’s fear. It’s fear that’s manifested from perceived criticism.
It’s so badly written that I was wondering if it is a fake post designed to stir up division.The grammar and prose is certainly triggering me if nothing else.
Also... the 16 year old son of a posh double-barrel-surnamed antifa activist?? So yeah, definitely not been exposed to any bollocks propaganda in his life. Hope the poor kid wasn't private schooled, looks like he didnt get value for money.
Why do we need statues to begin with?He was definitely racist, and its obviously understandable why you would feel like that.
I don't think there would be many statues left if you look at most historical figures.
This is exactly the thought that has been running through my head reading this thread.Why do we need statues to begin with?
They are iconography that were originally intended for religious worship, you’d think deifying people by erecting statues of them would be seen for the farce it is by the year 2020 (and yes, that includes the Trinity statue and Fergie’s, too).
I think it'd be a good idea to ask the people of Britain. Get them to vote on it.This is exactly the thought that has been running through my head reading this thread.
If we had some kind of national statue amnesty and pulled ALL of these things down, I doubt that half the people in this country would even notice the difference. It seems that a great many of us don't even know who most of these people are.
I don't think you know what you are asking for there. You're essentially asking for the erasure of a celebrated form of art and culture. Look through the statues and sculptures in history and some of the world's most important pieces of art are in there, and some of the world's most famous landmarks.This is exactly the thought that has been running through my head reading this thread.
If we had some kind of national statue amnesty and pulled ALL of these things down, I doubt that half the people in this country would even notice the difference. It seems that a great many of us don't even know who most of these people are.
That's quite an assumption. So all us white people are all inherently racist to some degree? No matter what we do, think and say? But i guess if I say I disagree with that i'm probably racist right?Because they are, the same way I am. Anyone born and raised in an inherently racist system is racist to some degree, it's impossible not to be when it infects every aspect of our lives. The real question is why are so many of you afraid to admit this?
It's the kind of thing people do that can't put together any coherent discussion or content in their posts. The truth is maybe they should look at themselves a bit closer.
Muhammed enslaved people, held slaves and traded slaves. He was a slaver. The middle eastern slave trade was every bit a bad as the european and american one. They cut the balls of their slaves for some reason. Talking about the islamic caliphates here after Muhammed, not Muhammed.There was an incident fairly recently in Wales where some white person told a lady (I believe she was wearing a hijab) to stop speaking foreign muck. She was speaking Welsh.
wtf is up with that Nina person
‘ If the statues go, the Mosques go too - Sign the Petition! http://chng.it/GyJvXSZQ via
@UKChange
Please sign The Petition MOSQUES REMOVED IF OUR STATUES ARE TORN DOWN’
How the feck have they gotten Mosques involved now
Thanks for responding.If it's to have true use as an educational tool, then I'd prefer they remain in public. Include 2 lines on the plinth: his virtue (if there was one beyond being rich), and his identity as a slave trader, also commented by statue being painted an agreed colour. It should act as a cautionary reminder.
In reality a museum is a fudge to appease the far right from losing face. Which has merit. Perhaps Tommy Robinson and his ilk would go to the museum every week to pay their respects, though I doubt anyone else would.
I actually see this episode as a massive opportunity. If Britain could present these figures from its past more accurately, in a way that frees us from the past idea of nation and truly inspires all of Britain's multicultural population to create its very best post Brexit identity. It could be really really powerful.
Sadly, Boris and his Brexit Cabinet don't have the intellect or wit to pull that off, and anyhow, they hoodwinked the Brexit class with promises of a new version of Rule Britannia, which is impossible to deliver. What a mess!
YepMuhammed enslaved people, held slaves and traded slaves. He was a slaver. The middle eastern slave trade was every bit a bad as the european and american one. They cut the balls of their slaves for some reason.
Very interesting post Cardboard Elk. Can you tell me what you feel the statue of Winston Churchill represents in your country?From a norwegian newspaper and point of view on this topic regarding Churchill as there has this week been a call to demolish his statue here in Norway, where Churchill is quite popular after all he did for us during ww2 :
Google translate :
Over 3,000 people have signed a petition to remove statues of Ludvig Holberg and Winston Churchill.
STORTINGET, OSLO (Nettavisen): - There is obviously a part that needs a history lesson, Stortinget representative Stefan Heggelund (H) tells Nettavisen.
Since the demonstrations against racism reached Norway, the fight has now become a little wider than before. This prompted Oslo citizen Yasmin Zannachi to make a call to remove the "slave trader statues in Norway".
In the appeal, she describes that the statues of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and author Ludvig Holberg should be demolished.
Blant annet på Solli plass og Nationaltheatret i Oslo står det statuer av henholdsvis Winston Churchill og Ludvig Holberg, sistnevnte investerte stort i slavehandel. Winston Churchill var en rasist og mente at den hvite rasen var overlegen. Det er uhørt at rasistiske hvite menn som synes det var greit å undertrykke svarte mennesker så til de grader skal ha en plass i våre gater, skriver Zannachi i oppropet.
Extreme sauce
At the time of writing, 3315 people have signed the petition. That is why Right-wing politicians Stefan Heggelund and Peter Frølich put the coffee in their throats.
- If this is the level of debate going forward, we will face tough times. These are just far-flung sauces, says Frølich.
"Arrived Norway as a king"
It was in 1948 that Winston Churchill came to Oslo and spoke for the Norwegian people. According to Aftenposten, Churchill was received "as a king, and a saving angel."
- The statue stands there as a thank you for giving us freedom back, and was erected in connection with the hundreds of thousands of people hearing Churchill speak. There were people who had known the war on the body, he says. He is voiced by Heggelund: - We honor him for helping to free Norway and Europe from the clutches of Nazism. It is absurd to see this call, you almost have to rub your eyes. Of course he will have a statue in the center of Oslo.
- But did Churchill not advocate racist thought?
- That's a pretty absurd argument. He is probably the individual who has done the most to fight racist thought and fascism, on behalf of liberal democracy, says Peter Frølich.
In the first edition of the call, Churchill was also referred to as a slave owner, but slavery was banned in the UK about 100 years before he was born.
Frølich draws a parallel to the 1984 book by George Orwell, which describes a dystopian and authoritarian society. Part of the description is about removing everything from history in society, replacing it with what the state thinks is "correct".
“All archives had been removed or forged, every book rewritten, every image repainted, every statue and building renamed, and all dates changed. The process continues day by day and minute by minute. The story has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present where the party is always right, ”Orwell wrote in the book.
- A society where everything should be wrapped up to the perfect and the correct. It is simply a pretty unattractive society. We must see history for what it is. Not everyone can live up to the 2020 values, says Frølich.
- Absurd
One of the most common charges against Winston Churchill is that during his time as deputy state council for the colonies, he led his actions to mass results in India. Frølich strongly rejects this.
- Even one of the most critical Churchill writers, Arthur Herman, strongly rejected this claim. The reason for hunger in India was that Japan occupied Burma, and the rice supplies did not come as normal. It is true that Churchill acted late, but that he is responsible for any genocide is just absurd, he says.
---
And at the end there was a poll. 4% wanted to demolish the statue. 96% did not.
It's amazing how you're shoehorning your Islamophobia into every thread you can manage recently.Muhammed enslaved people, held slaves and traded slaves. He was a slaver. The middle eastern slave trade was every bit a bad as the european and american one. They cut the balls of their slaves for some reason. Talking about the islamic caliphates here after Muhammed, not Muhammed.
This reads like an interview with the Norwegian equivalent of Nigel Farage, along with a poll posted on the BNP facebook page.From a norwegian newspaper and point of view on this topic regarding Churchill as there has this week been a call to demolish his statue here in Norway, where Churchill is quite popular after all he did for us during ww2 :
Google translate :
Over 3,000 people have signed a petition to remove statues of Ludvig Holberg and Winston Churchill.
STORTINGET, OSLO (Nettavisen): - There is obviously a part that needs a history lesson, Stortinget representative Stefan Heggelund (H) tells Nettavisen.
Since the demonstrations against racism reached Norway, the fight has now become a little wider than before. This prompted Oslo citizen Yasmin Zannachi to make a call to remove the "slave trader statues in Norway".
In the appeal, she describes that the statues of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and author Ludvig Holberg should be demolished.
Blant annet på Solli plass og Nationaltheatret i Oslo står det statuer av henholdsvis Winston Churchill og Ludvig Holberg, sistnevnte investerte stort i slavehandel. Winston Churchill var en rasist og mente at den hvite rasen var overlegen. Det er uhørt at rasistiske hvite menn som synes det var greit å undertrykke svarte mennesker så til de grader skal ha en plass i våre gater, skriver Zannachi i oppropet.
Extreme sauce
At the time of writing, 3315 people have signed the petition. That is why Right-wing politicians Stefan Heggelund and Peter Frølich put the coffee in their throats.
- If this is the level of debate going forward, we will face tough times. These are just far-flung sauces, says Frølich.
"Arrived Norway as a king"
It was in 1948 that Winston Churchill came to Oslo and spoke for the Norwegian people. According to Aftenposten, Churchill was received "as a king, and a saving angel."
- The statue stands there as a thank you for giving us freedom back, and was erected in connection with the hundreds of thousands of people hearing Churchill speak. There were people who had known the war on the body, he says. He is voiced by Heggelund: - We honor him for helping to free Norway and Europe from the clutches of Nazism. It is absurd to see this call, you almost have to rub your eyes. Of course he will have a statue in the center of Oslo.
- But did Churchill not advocate racist thought?
- That's a pretty absurd argument. He is probably the individual who has done the most to fight racist thought and fascism, on behalf of liberal democracy, says Peter Frølich.
In the first edition of the call, Churchill was also referred to as a slave owner, but slavery was banned in the UK about 100 years before he was born.
Frølich draws a parallel to the 1984 book by George Orwell, which describes a dystopian and authoritarian society. Part of the description is about removing everything from history in society, replacing it with what the state thinks is "correct".
“All archives had been removed or forged, every book rewritten, every image repainted, every statue and building renamed, and all dates changed. The process continues day by day and minute by minute. The story has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present where the party is always right, ”Orwell wrote in the book.
- A society where everything should be wrapped up to the perfect and the correct. It is simply a pretty unattractive society. We must see history for what it is. Not everyone can live up to the 2020 values, says Frølich.
- Absurd
One of the most common charges against Winston Churchill is that during his time as deputy state council for the colonies, he led his actions to mass results in India. Frølich strongly rejects this.
- Even one of the most critical Churchill writers, Arthur Herman, strongly rejected this claim. The reason for hunger in India was that Japan occupied Burma, and the rice supplies did not come as normal. It is true that Churchill acted late, but that he is responsible for any genocide is just absurd, he says.
---
And at the end there was a poll. 4% wanted to demolish the statue. 96% did not.
It was a response to a post on the subject of destroying historical artifacts. Being critical of Islam is not Islamophobia any more than being critical of Christinaity makes you a Christianityphobe. It's pretty tiresome that being critical of a religious and political doctrine somehow makes you phobic which implies that your aversion is irrational. Rather than being labelled I would rather be proven wrong which makes for a much more interesting discussion.It's amazing how you're shoehorning your Islamophobia into every thread you can manage recently.
Because anyone who tries to pick them up on it is also called a racist and it’s not worth the drama. Better to leave them running around screaming with their hands in the air like little children.
I actually get the point that Mr Pooni is trying to make, I don't necessarily agree that everyone is racist, but lots of people (not all) who wouldn't call themselves racist at all still have deeply ingrained prejudices due to the society they've grown up in that are very difficult to shake. The older people are the more this tends to be the case (again certainly not saying this is true for everyone)Because they are, the same way I am. Anyone born and raised in an inherently racist system is racist to some degree, it's impossible not to be when it infects every aspect of our lives. The real question is why are so many of you afraid to admit this?